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What is a minimum wage for, if not a living wage?

You are living in la-la land if you think minimum wage workers actually exist. Recent BLS data shows that almost all workers at or near minimum wage are actually tipped professions. This isn't 1981 when ~16% of workers made minimum wage. It is now ~2% and they are pretty much all tipped workers.

If someone makes $8.00/hour instead of $7.25/hour, they aren't technically paid minimum wage but is this really an important distinction? It's not like their lifestyle has changed from that 75 cents.

How many make less than $15/hour? Real quick google says

28%
 
If someone makes $8.00/hour instead of $7.25/hour, they aren't technically paid minimum wage but is this really an important distinction? It's not like their lifestyle has changed from that 75 cents.

How many make less than $15/hour?

I honestly have poured over the data in that degree of detail, you are welcome to look it up and let us know though I would be interested.

What I can tell you is that median wages and median household income are both up since they began being tracked in 1977 and 1983 respectively. So the idea that the average worker is seeing wage degradation isn't supported by the stats.

Edit: I would also question who/why workers are making below $12-13/hr honestly. There is something wrong there, either in the location or the individual. I employ a rather large number of people, I cannot get *anyone* to work secretarial type front desk work for less than $15-16/hr with no skills. It was hard before COVID, it is now impossible. If you show me someone who is willing to put in honest work, be reliable and trustworthy, I can show that person a real quick path to $16-18/hr in lower COL areas. My gardener charges me $25/hr, cash for crying out loud.
 
I honestly have poured over the data in that degree of detail, you are welcome to look it up and let us know though I would be interested.

What I can tell you is that median wages and median household income are both up since they began being tracked in 1977 and 1983 respectively. So the idea that the average worker is seeing wage degradation isn't supported by the stats.

Edit: I would also question who/why workers are making below $12-13/hr honestly. There is something wrong there, either in the location or the individual. I employ a rather large number of people, I cannot get *anyone* to work secretarial type front desk work for less than $15-16/hr with no skills. It was hard before COVID, it is now impossible. If you show me someone who is willing to put in honest work, be reliable and trustworthy, I can show that person a real quick path to $16-18/hr in lower COL areas. My gardener charges me $25/hr, cash for crying out loud.
'willing to put in honest work, be reliable and trustworthy' Gee. These things sound exactly like what you learn from your first job or two. Imagine that.
 
The minimum wage may have once been intended to stabilize the economy
but what it does in reality is insure that employers pay something.

Only about 2% of hourly workers earn minimum wage or less and half of those are under 25 so it’s not like the minimum wage actually has to supply a livable wage to anything but a tiny number of workers.
 
You are living in la-la land if you think most minimum wages employees get time and half after 40 hours.....
We had an example of such thinking from a Conservative government Minister. Criticised for the government plan to cut benefits for the poorest workers (on minimum wage) , she handwaved it away by suggesting that they could work 2 more hours to make it up.
Apart from the obvious that there are no extra hours, the problem is that the benefit is scaled pro rata to earnings, and they would need an extra nine hours a week to make up the loss due to their benefit being docked because they earned more!
 
I honestly have poured over the data in that degree of detail, you are welcome to look it up and let us know though I would be interested.

What I can tell you is that median wages and median household income are both up since they began being tracked in 1977 and 1983 respectively. So the idea that the average worker is seeing wage degradation isn't supported by the stats.
Median is not average. 50% are worse off than the median. (by definition)

Also... I choose not to only worry about the average. All people matter, right?

By the way, below $15/hour is more like a quarter of the population.

Edit: I would also question who/why workers are making below $12-13/hr honestly. There is something wrong there, either in the location or the individual. I employ a rather large number of people, I cannot get *anyone* to work secretarial type front desk work for less than $15-16/hr with no skills. It was hard before COVID, it is now impossible. If you show me someone who is willing to put in honest work, be reliable and trustworthy, I can show that person a real quick path to $16-18/hr in lower COL areas. My gardener charges me $25/hr, cash for crying out loud.
Then you've nothing to worry about.
 
'willing to put in honest work, be reliable and trustworthy' Gee. These things sound exactly like what you learn from your first job or two. Imagine that.
When the only jobs around are McJobs, they start to look like a career instead of "starter" jobs.
 
The minimum wage may have once been intended to stabilize the economy
but what it does in reality is insure that employers pay something.

Only about 2% of hourly workers earn minimum wage or less and half of those are under 25 so it’s not like the minimum wage actually has to supply a livable wage to anything but a tiny number of workers.

Like a quarter of our population makes below $15/hour.
 
When the only jobs around are McJobs, they start to look like a career instead of "starter" jobs.
That wasn't the case here in the US not all that many months ago.
Heck, it isn't even the case now, where businesses can't find and hire the workforces they need.
Sure looks like your 'McJobs' isn't really the case.
 
So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?
Originally, to suppress minorities:


...Leading supporters of legal minimum wages, certainly the most influential economists among them—Ely, Commons, Henry Rogers Seager, Sidney Webb, John B. Andrews, and others—were Progressive reformers, and many were AALL leaders. Progressive-Era marginalists—Alfred Marshall, John Bates Clark, Frank Taussig, Philip Wicksteed, and A. C. Pigou—generally opposed minimum wages (Leonard 2003b).

More surprising than Progressive support for legal minimum wages was the fact that Progressive economists, like their marginalist interlocutors, believed that binding minimum wages would result in job losses. What distinguished supporters of minimum wages from their marginalist opponents was how they regarded minimum-wage-induced job loss. Whereas the marginalists saw disemployment as the principal cost of binding minima, indeed as the reason to oppose minimum-wage legislation, minimum-wage advocates regarded minimum-wage-induced disemployment as a social benefit—a eugenic virtue of legal minimum wages. Sidney and Beatrice Webb ([1897] 1920, 785) state it plainly: “With regard to certain sections of the population [“unemployables”], this unemployment is not a mark of social disease, but actually of social health.”...

The original controversy over the minimum wage centered on what to do about the "unemployable class." By which they meant "black people" and (and, this has always been one of the most memorably bizarre early Progressive phrasings) "the Mongrelized Asian Hordes". It was Syndey Webb (a major early proponent)'s belief, shared by many of the progressive economists affiliated with the American Economic Association, that establishing a minimum wage above the value of the "unemployables" worth would lock them out of the market, accelerating their elimination as a class. "Of all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites," Webb observed, "the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners."

Sociologist E. A. Ross put it succinctly: "The Coolie cannot outdo the American, but he can underlive him." Since the "inferior races" were content to live closer to a filthy state of nature than the Nordic Man, the savages did not require a civilized wage. Hence if you raised minimum wages to a civilized level, employers wouldn't hire such miscreants, instead preferring "fitter" specimens, making the undesirables less likely to reproduce and, if necessary, easier targets for forced sterilization. Royal Meeker, a Princeton economist and adviser to Woodrow Wilson, explained: "Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind."

We got the Davis-Bacon Act for the same reason. Darn ole blacks and immigrants were getting jobs when Decent White People' weren't. So, you raise the barrier for entry into the market, knowing that you'll price out many of the "undesirables".

:(
 
Originally, to suppress minorities:


...Leading supporters of legal minimum wages, certainly the most influential economists among them—Ely, Commons, Henry Rogers Seager, Sidney Webb, John B. Andrews, and others—were Progressive reformers, and many were AALL leaders. Progressive-Era marginalists—Alfred Marshall, John Bates Clark, Frank Taussig, Philip Wicksteed, and A. C. Pigou—generally opposed minimum wages (Leonard 2003b).

More surprising than Progressive support for legal minimum wages was the fact that Progressive economists, like their marginalist interlocutors, believed that binding minimum wages would result in job losses. What distinguished supporters of minimum wages from their marginalist opponents was how they regarded minimum-wage-induced job loss. Whereas the marginalists saw disemployment as the principal cost of binding minima, indeed as the reason to oppose minimum-wage legislation, minimum-wage advocates regarded minimum-wage-induced disemployment as a social benefit—a eugenic virtue of legal minimum wages. Sidney and Beatrice Webb ([1897] 1920, 785) state it plainly: “With regard to certain sections of the population [“unemployables”], this unemployment is not a mark of social disease, but actually of social health.”...

The original controversy over the minimum wage centered on what to do about the "unemployable class." By which they meant "black people" and (and, this has always been one of the most memorably bizarre early Progressive phrasings) "the Mongrelized Asian Hordes". It was Syndey Webb (a major early proponent)'s belief, shared by many of the progressive economists affiliated with the American Economic Association, that establishing a minimum wage above the value of the "unemployables" worth would lock them out of the market, accelerating their elimination as a class. "Of all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites," Webb observed, "the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners."

Sociologist E. A. Ross put it succinctly: "The Coolie cannot outdo the American, but he can underlive him." Since the "inferior races" were content to live closer to a filthy state of nature than the Nordic Man, the savages did not require a civilized wage. Hence if you raised minimum wages to a civilized level, employers wouldn't hire such miscreants, instead preferring "fitter" specimens, making the undesirables less likely to reproduce and, if necessary, easier targets for forced sterilization. Royal Meeker, a Princeton economist and adviser to Woodrow Wilson, explained: "Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind."

We got the Davis-Bacon Act for the same reason. Darn ole blacks and immigrants were getting jobs when Decent White People' weren't. So, you raise the barrier for entry into the market, knowing that you'll price out many of the "undesirables".

:(
Wow. Progressives wanting to suppress minorities. Who would have thought that?
 
Like a quarter of our population makes below $15/hour.
Probably. And two people earning $15/hr can probably live okay in much of the country provided they don’t have kids.
 
Personally, I think the bottom line is: Pay the workers as little as one can get by with, in order for the fortunate to reap most of the benefits.
If thats what you think goes on, why would any employee earn more than minimum? In truth, only 1.6 million people earn the minimum wage. Everyone else makes more.
 
I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

Way easy question.

If you have any others like this, put me on speed dial, I can be a reservoir of knowledge for you.

Oh, OK, back to this layup.

It was designed to stop the exploitation of the worker which the capitalistic system, unbridled, does.
 
If thats what you think goes on, why would any employee earn more than minimum? In truth, only 1.6 million people earn the minimum wage. Everyone else makes more.

Again, using exactly minimum wage is twisting the facts.

1.6 million earn that, but more like 30+ million earn less than $15/hour.

Why would anyone earn more? Um, the market. Minimum wage is a minimum. Like the word implies. Not a maximum, which is the opposite of what the the word implies.
 
A minimum wage is what it take to keep insurrection from happening.
 
A minimum wage is what it take to keep insurrection from happening.

Ahh yes, your Bezos types certainly don't want another "let them eat cake."

If that's the concern... yeah we'd better raise it.
 
Originally, to suppress minorities:


The original controversy over the minimum wage centered on what to do about the "unemployable class."

:(
No. While this was certainly talked about by the white supremacist types, it was not "centered" on this at all. Revisionist history.

Furthermore, with the benefit of hindsight we can identify that this is not at all what actually happened. There was no vast spike in black unemployment. Turns out black people actually are worth a living wage, contrary to the confederates' beliefs.
 
No. While this was certainly talked about by the white supremacist types, it was not "centered" on this at all. Revisionist history.

No, that's just "history". It's just that it's awkward history, so, we don't like it.

Furthermore, with the benefit of hindsight we can identify that this is not at all what actually happened. There was no vast spike in black unemployment. Turns out black people actually are worth a living wage, contrary to the confederates' beliefs.

Uh. There was, in fact, an increase in black unemployment - particularly among the lowest skill and experience levels of the workforce. Minimum wage and other laws that make it more expensive to hire people continue to disproportionately harm black Americans in this country.
 
The idea that a minimum wage law hurts the low-end of the labor market is laughable. What, if we remove the minimum wage, you think these people would get paid more?
It’s laughable if one is ignorant of the very basic effect of price on demand. If not, then not so much.
 
So, I often hear on these forums that a minimum wage was "never meant to be" a "living wage." (living wage always in scare quotes) It's not "supposed to be" able to support yourself.

But I never really hear an answer to... what the **** is it for?

If not a living wage, why do we have it at all?
What's a "living wage"? Living where? With whom? MW is just some LW brain fart.
 
It’s laughable if one is ignorant of the very basic effect of price on demand. If not, then not so much.

Ahh yes, the Econ 101 level of expertise.

Kinda like the guy who takes Physics 101 and thinks he's an engineer now.

It's laughable that you didn't consider a far more important factor in determining the demand for a particular type of labor.
 
What's a "living wage"? Living where? With whom? MW is just some LW brain fart.

This non-response being the overwhelming favorite of the right wing kinda proves me right. You don't actually have a reason. You just know it's not a 'living wage' because your propaganda masters said so. Does it bother you that the views you express are so beneficial to a wealthy liberal elite?
 
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