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What if Technology Solves a Problem - Will Govt Listen?

The tubes are not vacuum. The author stated, if I read it right, that the length of the tubes makes it impossible to keep it a vacuum and so the air must be moved from in front of the pod. It is one of the most significant energy draws on the system but he wrote that it can be done with fans, design of the pods and enough power - again why he said the project needs to be lined with solar panels to produce the power.


Fenton said:
Vacuum Tubes are in a VACUUM.

Wouldn't that imply a LACK of air ?
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jonny5 said:
Hyperloop is unproven. High speed rail is proven. If I had to bet on one, it would be high speed rail.
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The problem with that line of thinking is that the train in question would be both slower, more expensive to operate (if unsubsidized) and less safe than flying, so why would anyone use it?

It's AMTRAK all over again.
 
CalGun said:
CA's High Speed Rail Authority is planning on a 125 mph train, a rail line that is so secret that even though they aim to break ground this month we don't even know which path they are going to take. They say it's $70 billion, but that it will take 20 years to build so the number is likely $200 billion. The Loop would be under $10 billion and 6x as fast.

BTW I was conservative with the solar panel ability. You could triple what I indicated is possible. It could produce the equivalent of 2 nuclear power plants. If they needed 3 they could expand the panels in the areas where the land is affordable (desolate areas) and have 3.
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Multimedia Maps - California High-Speed Rail Authority
 
Peter Grimm said:
Well, you see the government is interested in this because the cronies in office need to kick back some bucks to the people who funded their election. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

Then, there's the added benefit of more public sector contracting jobs (preferably through unions) - that means you get more Democratic voters because those people are depending on you, the government, for their monthly paycheck.

And then, of course, there's the added benefit of getting to raise taxes on the wealthy, because the less wealthy the wealthy are, the fewer donations the Republican Party gets.

Finally, the politician might just get his name on the train. That's always a perk.

You see, it all comes down to kickbacks, perks, and the ease of spending other people's money.

Welcome to the new Today.
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Yep...and they'll add a hundred billion or more onto the price tag.
 
Mycroft said:
Yep...and they'll add a hundred billion or more onto the price tag.
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Yes, and about 10 years more in development. Whether the train actually runs or not, and whether anyone actually uses it, are irrelevant. That's not the point of the project. They might as well just build a giant statue of barack obama. The point is just to raise taxes, and to pay people to pick up a shovel so that they'll depend on you and vote for you.
 
Oh come on now.

It is the new and improved Amtrak.

It runs 3x faster than Amtrak, costs 10x as much as Amtrak and takes 15 years longer to build that Amtrak.

Like i said - new and improved (please note sarcasm).

I'd rather see my state waste $6 billion on an unproven new technology attempt (fully built) than waste $200 billion on a project we know that works and is a failure before it even starts.


Peter Grimm said:
The problem with that line of thinking is that the train in question would be both slower, more expensive to operate (if unsubsidized) and less safe than flying, so why would anyone use it?

It's AMTRAK all over again.
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CalGun said:
http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/newsroom/maps/Merced_to_Fresno.pdf

This is the section supposedly to break ground THIS MONTH so take a look from the link you have provided.

Notice anything?

No specific location, alternatives yet to be determined, and "approximates" abound.
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Thats how projects like this go, it is entirely within the norm. The area in that map is large and the "approximates" will be ironed out by the time the actual construction gets that far. The important part is that the route has been determined and that a few of the details need further work. Which is a far cry from your claim that the rail line is a secret. I mean there are maps that show you the route, the "approximates" dont really matter in the basic location of the route. The maps show a specific location with a few exceptions based on some environmental issues and local planning input.
 
jonny5 said:
It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.
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I just don't see it as wrong. In many cases the investment was to gain the upper hand in everything from steel to computer chips. Basic research- often done for nation defense- is the basis for much the private sector wouldn't risk capital on- the downside of capitalism is if it doesn't pay off by next quarter we are not interested.

The internet you see as only 'successful' after the civilian market got a hold of it is a prime example. It never would be available to us if the government had not looked for a new commo link and if it stayed with the government.

But you are entitled to your opinion, i'm just glad it isn't what the government had done.
 
CalGun said:
The tubes are not vacuum. The author stated, if I read it right, that the length of the tubes makes it impossible to keep it a vacuum and so the air must be moved from in front of the pod. It is one of the most significant energy draws on the system but he wrote that it can be done with fans, design of the pods and enough power - again why he said the project needs to be lined with solar panels to produce the power.
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Where does the air in front of the pod move to? Is there a scramjet motor or engine in the pod to move the air from the front through the pod to the back?
 
CalGun said:
I'd much rather CA be known for a new means of travel then the worst of the old means. You realize the train they are planning here has a top speed of 125 miles per hour? Its stupidity to try and stop as often as they do for the cities in between. Ridiculous.
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I've read the top speed is 225, not 125.

This link says the average speed is 164
Hyperloop vs. world's fastest trains - CNN.com
 
obvious Child said:
Musk did not propose a vacuum tube.

Try again.

Thanks again for showing you are unable to research anything.
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Musk for some reason has been scant with the technical details and even if it WASN'T in a vacuum, what he's described is basically a Pneumatic air transport system with electromagnetic drive. ( Personally I think he's full of sh** )

His desription was a " cross between the Concorde, a railgun, and an air hockey table ".

So your "air friction" concern could be dealt with pretty easily by the presence of high speed high, pressure air moving in the direction of travel offsetting drag or simply the lowering of air-pressure in the tube down to say 20 thousand feet of altitude which would lower the density of the air in the tube thus lowering drag.

I think it's a ridiculous idea and a waste of money. It would take a massive amount of energy to power the stupid thing as the power needed to push an object through a static fluid ( air ) increases as the cube of the velocity.
 
Well excuse me, but if you would try to find out where they intend to break ground this month - you will find out its a secret. So speak only of which you know - the maps are inconclusive at best and they are intentionally doing that so people don't protest the ground breaking - which I fully intend to join up in doing. So is this in your back yard or are you just one of the phat union folks that aim to make $250 an hour working on it? Be careful - Diane Feinstein's hubby is a lead contractor in this fiasco - he has a horrible history with his employees.


FreedomFromAll said:
Thats how projects like this go, it is entirely within the norm. The area in that map is large and the "approximates" will be ironed out by the time the actual construction gets that far. The important part is that the route has been determined and that a few of the details need further work. Which is a far cry from your claim that the rail line is a secret. I mean there are maps that show you the route, the "approximates" dont really matter in the basic location of the route. The maps show a specific location with a few exceptions based on some environmental issues and local planning input.
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His documents said powerful fans were used to move the air below the pod - so the pod itself could ride on air.


Diogenes said:
Where does the air in front of the pod move to? Is there a scramjet motor or engine in the pod to move the air from the front through the pod to the back?
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CalGun said:
Don't you love how liberal socialist lie and make things up. That is running top speed averages. Actual running speed is down to 125.
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Don't you love how conservatives throw out numbers that disagree with them?

It says average speed. It doesn't say running top speed averages, or anything else. It says average speed.

That means in the trip between SF and San Diego it mentioned the train would average 162 mph.

And besides, you claimed it had a top speed of 125. So even if it has an average top speed of 162, you're still wrong.
CalGun said:
You realize the train they are planning here has a top speed of 125 miles per hour?.
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CalGun said:
Well excuse me, but if you would try to find out where they intend to break ground this month - you will find out its a secret. So speak only of which you know - the maps are inconclusive at best and they are intentionally doing that so people don't protest the ground breaking - which I fully intend to join up in doing. So is this in your back yard or are you just one of the phat union folks that aim to make $250 an hour working on it? Be careful - Diane Feinstein's hubby is a lead contractor in this fiasco - he has a horrible history with his employees.
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I am self employed I dont need a union. ANd if you reread my posts I never said that I supported or was against the project.


But why would they need to share the location of a ground breaking site when it could be next year before that even happens?

Just monitor the facebook site I bet when the time is closer they will announce the location on there. Its not like they are not going to invite the media or anyone. Seriously there isnt any secret there to worry about.
 
Fenton said:
Musk for some reason has been scant with the technical details and even if it WASN'T in a vacuum, what he's described is basically a Pneumatic air transport system with electromagnetic drive. ( Personally I think he's full of sh** )
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It's not an electromagnetic drive either. Hyperloop essentially runs on an airbed of highly pressurized air. Each pod is effectively an air sled. I do agree that there are serious problems with this.

So your "air friction" concern could be dealt with pretty easily by the presence of high speed high, pressure air moving in the direction of travel offsetting drag or simply the lowering of air-pressure in the tube down to say 20 thousand feet of altitude which would lower the density of the air in the tube thus lowering drag.
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20,000 feet air density is still way too high. Remember that airliners like to cruise at 35,000 and they aren't at 800 mph. To get this viable, air density has to drop significantly and the fan to transfer high pressure air from the front of the sled to behind and beneath while going at 800 mph has to be immensely powerful. Then there's the problem of moving that much air in a confined space heat issue. The heat from friction alone from blasting out air like that will be crazy. An electromagnetic vacuum tube has none of these problems. But a 700 mile vacuum tube is going to be extremely difficult to maintain a vacuum. That's why he's not proposing it.

I think it's a ridiculous idea and a waste of money. It would take a massive amount of energy to power the stupid thing as the power needed to push an object through a static fluid ( air ) increases as the cube of the velocity.
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For one we may agree on something. How novel.
 
Because they've been announcing they intend to start before 8/31/13. Not next year....NOW

FreedomFromAll said:
I am self employed I dont need a union. ANd if you reread my posts I never said that I supported or was against the project.


But why would they need to share the location of a ground breaking site when it could be next year before that even happens?

Just monitor the facebook site I bet when the time is closer they will announce the location on there. Its not like they are not going to invite the media or anyone. Seriously there isnt any secret there to worry about.
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CalGun said:
Because they've been announcing they intend to start before 8/31/13. Not next year....NOW
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Where is the source for that info? I mean all the sources that i looked at said that there have been many delays because of the legal issues. They were saying in the beginning of summer but that didnt happen then some were saying July well that passed by. Now August will pass by as well.

More delays likely for high-speed rail

August 13, 2013 2:00 pm • By Seth Nidever(0) Comments

Enlarge Photo
HANFORD — The start of high-speed rail construction north of Fresno is likely to be delayed for months, and maybe until 2014, according to published reports.

California High Speed Rail Blog » HSR Construction May Be Delayed To 2014
 
obvious Child said:
That's not the friction problem I'm talking about. Japanese maglev trains levitate above their rails, but they are limited to about 350 mph because of air friction. This is the #1 problem that Hyperloop is going to have going faster than that. His proposal for a fan to move high pressure air from the front to behind it might work, but to move that much air out of the way of a 760 MPH metal tube will require immense energy.

The reason the SR-71 was able to fly so fast was partially because it flew in low density air. That creates much less air friction. At ground level, this is a real big problem. And Elon has stated it's not a vacuum tube. I'm no physicist, but I do know that pushing something at 800 mph through air at sea level is going to cause all kinds of problems.



Not necessarily. Hyperloop only has two destinations. California's high speed train has many. If you live anywhere between San Fran or LA, this isn't better. For instance, say you live half way between. You could drive 4 hours to get either, or you could take a shorter plane ride. Hyperloop is useless to you because it cannot serve you. I don't necessarily agree with the high speed train, but it serves way more people than hyperloop does. And I'm pretty sure it can carry way more people than Hyperloop's low number per hour.
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First, I don't know if you've read the PDF released, but I did, and he details pretty clearly how he deals with the air. It's not just the redirection of air from front to back, there are also a series of air pumps along the way that keep a low pressure environment (not vacuum, but close).

And second, the hyperloop doesn't have more destinations yet. LA to SF is supposed to be a proof of concept. There's no reason it can't grow from there.
 
CalGun said:
Well no offense, but this is why Libertarians enjoy 1% at the national polls and the other 99% expects their government to get things done - better than they are.
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I agree. Its a fundamental difference which is why I favor independence. At some point you just have to go your separate ways.
 
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