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What if Technology Solves a Problem - Will Govt Listen?

CalGun

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Hyperloop details from Elon Musk due Monday - The Tell - MarketWatch

In California the big government environmental left thinks that spending billions on high speed rail
is a great solution and some how a terrific alternative to a 60 minute flight. The cost estimates
run from $75 billion (if you ask them) to $200 billion (if you ask the opponents) and considering the
bay bridge cost more then 2x what it was suppose too and the high speed train is suppose to take
20-30 years to build I'd guess the critics probably are right.

Then you get a guy like this Telsa Motors dude who comes along and says he has a better answer.
Of course we dont' know what the answer is yet - I am looking forward to 1;30 PM PST to find out.
But I'm just curious if the path towards a big wasteful govt program is already set - can it be
changed? How? What would we need to do? Diane Fiensteins' hubby is planning on making
millions on high speed rail - he's already made millions in Afganistan but that is winding down so
this is his new cash cow. That's hard to beat.
 

Diogenes

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I think Reagan had it right when he observed that the closest thing to eternal life we will ever see is a government program.
 

Mycroft

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Why should government be interested in this?

If it's a viable and economical transportation solution, let the private market have a go at it. Keep the government...any government...out of it.
 

CalGun

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Government's only interest would be to cancel their plans if this is for real.
Why would government spend upwards of $200 billion a private investment could
make obsolete so quickly?

Revealed: Elon Musk Explains the Hyperloop, the Solar-Powered High-Speed Future of Inter-City Transportation - Businessweek

More details - looks so promising.


Why should government be interested in this?

If it's a viable and economical transportation solution, let the private market have a go at it. Keep the government...any government...out of it.
 

obvious Child

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Jesus. How the heck is he planning to deal with air friction at 800 mph?

This isn't a new idea. But what was proposed before was vacuum tubes as that removed the problem of air friction. Even with air being pumped around at 200~300 mph at low density is going to cause significant problems.

This sounds like Elon getting publicity rather than an actual plan.
 

CalGun

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It looks like he resolved this issue by noting the use of steel tubes rather than something more porous to create friction. If the carts are steel as well or at the very least aluminum the issue of friction would be limited. His propulsion is not explained well. Though he states clearly its solar powered which means electric and if you were going to extend tubes of steel across the state you could certainly line that with panels and generate a boat load of electricity.

My point of this post is that its doubtful government can even imagine putting off its wasteful and inept plans despite potentially ground breaking technology that could do better at a fraction of the cost. My GOD if his platform cost 2x as much as stated and traveled half as fast as stated its still 5x better than the high speed rail fiasco this state is about to engage.


Jesus. How the heck is he planning to deal with air friction at 800 mph?

This isn't a new idea. But what was proposed before was vacuum tubes as that removed the problem of air friction. Even with air being pumped around at 200~300 mph at low density is going to cause significant problems.

This sounds like Elon getting publicity rather than an actual plan.
 

obvious Child

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It looks like he resolved this issue by noting the use of steel tubes rather than something more porous to create friction. If the carts are steel as well or at the very least aluminum the issue of friction would be limited
That's not the friction problem I'm talking about. Japanese maglev trains levitate above their rails, but they are limited to about 350 mph because of air friction. This is the #1 problem that Hyperloop is going to have going faster than that. His proposal for a fan to move high pressure air from the front to behind it might work, but to move that much air out of the way of a 760 MPH metal tube will require immense energy.

The reason the SR-71 was able to fly so fast was partially because it flew in low density air. That creates much less air friction. At ground level, this is a real big problem. And Elon has stated it's not a vacuum tube. I'm no physicist, but I do know that pushing something at 800 mph through air at sea level is going to cause all kinds of problems.

My point of this post is that its doubtful government can even imagine putting off its wasteful and inept plans despite potentially ground breaking technology that could do better at a fraction of the cost. My GOD if his platform cost 2x as much as stated and traveled half as fast as stated its still 5x better than the high speed rail fiasco this state is about to engage.
Not necessarily. Hyperloop only has two destinations. California's high speed train has many. If you live anywhere between San Fran or LA, this isn't better. For instance, say you live half way between. You could drive 4 hours to get either, or you could take a shorter plane ride. Hyperloop is useless to you because it cannot serve you. I don't necessarily agree with the high speed train, but it serves way more people than hyperloop does. And I'm pretty sure it can carry way more people than Hyperloop's low number per hour.
 

CalGun

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In the article he discussed the movement of air from in front of the car / tube suggesting its moved under the vehicle to allow it to float and the amount of energy needed is serious which is why the tubes are to be covered in solar panels to provide the power.

The populations in between the two destinations, particularly along Highway 5 that he envisioned using are minuscule and not really deserving of mass transport at the people's cost.


That's not the friction problem I'm talking about. Japanese maglev trains levitate above their rails, but they are limited to about 350 mph because of air friction. This is the #1 problem that Hyperloop is going to have going faster than that. His proposal for a fan to move high pressure air from the front to behind it might work, but to move that much air out of the way of a 760 MPH metal tube will require immense energy.

The reason the SR-71 was able to fly so fast was partially because it flew in low density air. That creates much less air friction. At ground level, this is a real big problem. And Elon has stated it's not a vacuum tube. I'm no physicist, but I do know that pushing something at 800 mph through air at sea level is going to cause all kinds of problems.



Not necessarily. Hyperloop only has two destinations. California's high speed train has many. If you live anywhere between San Fran or LA, this isn't better. For instance, say you live half way between. You could drive 4 hours to get either, or you could take a shorter plane ride. Hyperloop is useless to you because it cannot serve you. I don't necessarily agree with the high speed train, but it serves way more people than hyperloop does. And I'm pretty sure it can carry way more people than Hyperloop's low number per hour.
 

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In the article he discussed the movement of air from in front of the car / tube suggesting its moved under the vehicle to allow it to float and the amount of energy needed is serious which is why the tubes are to be covered in solar panels to provide the power.
The sheer amount of air that would need to be removed from the front to the back in the span of how fast the pod goes at 760 mph will be immense. I seriously doubt solar can power this thing. Nuclear yes.

The populations in between the two destinations, particularly along Highway 5 that he envisioned using are minuscule and not really deserving of mass transport at the people's cost.
Perhaps, but that's still a large population that otherwise would use the alternative. Plus, it's easier to add capacity to a train system then a pod system that's timed on a 760 mph interval.
 

CalGun

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The system would be almost 400 miles long. 400 miles x 5280 linear feet = enough space for 1 billion watts of solar panels perfectly placed to the sun with the proper azimuth and pitch. That's a lot of power. Even if evenly distributed over 400 miles its a lot of power.

The only cities negatively impacted at those close to LA and SF who don't get stops on a slow speed (high speed) rail. Those folks would be better served by buses than a $70 - $200 billion boondoggle of a govt. program.

I'd much rather CA be known for a new means of travel then the worst of the old means. You realize the train they are planning here has a top speed of 125 miles per hour? Its stupidity to try and stop as often as they do for the cities in between. Ridiculous.


The sheer amount of air that would need to be removed from the front to the back in the span of how fast the pod goes at 760 mph will be immense. I seriously doubt solar can power this thing. Nuclear yes.



Perhaps, but that's still a large population that otherwise would use the alternative. Plus, it's easier to add capacity to a train system then a pod system that's timed on a 760 mph interval.
 

obvious Child

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The system would be almost 400 miles long. 400 miles x 5280 linear feet = enough space for 1 billion watts of solar panels perfectly placed to the sun with the proper azimuth and pitch. That's a lot of power. Even if evenly distributed over 400 miles its a lot of power.
But consider the power requirements from having huge numbers of air pumps at the same time having to power high capacity fans to move high pressure air from the front to behind on each pod.

The only cities negatively impacted at those close to LA and SF who don't get stops on a slow speed (high speed) rail. Those folks would be better served by buses than a $70 - $200 billion boondoggle of a govt. program.
Buses don't help much when they go 45 Mph tops.

I'd much rather CA be known for a new means of travel then the worst of the old means. You realize the train they are planning here has a top speed of 125 miles per hour? Its stupidity to try and stop as often as they do for the cities in between. Ridiculous.
What's the point in 125? They can't spring for the 300 mph that the rest of the world has?
 

jonny5

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Hyperloop details from Elon Musk due Monday - The Tell - MarketWatch

In California the big government environmental left thinks that spending billions on high speed rail
is a great solution and some how a terrific alternative to a 60 minute flight. The cost estimates
run from $75 billion (if you ask them) to $200 billion (if you ask the opponents) and considering the
bay bridge cost more then 2x what it was suppose too and the high speed train is suppose to take
20-30 years to build I'd guess the critics probably are right.

Then you get a guy like this Telsa Motors dude who comes along and says he has a better answer.
Of course we dont' know what the answer is yet - I am looking forward to 1;30 PM PST to find out.
But I'm just curious if the path towards a big wasteful govt program is already set - can it be
changed? How? What would we need to do? Diane Fiensteins' hubby is planning on making
millions on high speed rail - he's already made millions in Afganistan but that is winding down so
this is his new cash cow. That's hard to beat.
The question is will govt ever learn that they have no businesses deciding what people should use to move around. Leave people alone and they will figure out the best way.
 

CalGun

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CA's High Speed Rail Authority is planning on a 125 mph train, a rail line that is so secret that even though they aim to break ground this month we don't even know which path they are going to take. They say it's $70 billion, but that it will take 20 years to build so the number is likely $200 billion. The Loop would be under $10 billion and 6x as fast.

BTW I was conservative with the solar panel ability. You could triple what I indicated is possible. It could produce the equivalent of 2 nuclear power plants. If they needed 3 they could expand the panels in the areas where the land is affordable (desolate areas) and have 3.


But consider the power requirements from having huge numbers of air pumps at the same time having to power high capacity fans to move high pressure air from the front to behind on each pod.



Buses don't help much when they go 45 Mph tops.



What's the point in 125? They can't spring for the 300 mph that the rest of the world has?
 

jonny5

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CA's High Speed Rail Authority is planning on a 125 mph train, a rail line that is so secret that even though they aim to break ground this month we don't even know which path they are going to take. They say it's $70 billion, but that it will take 20 years to build so the number is likely $200 billion. The Loop would be under $10 billion and 6x as fast.

BTW I was conservative with the solar panel ability. You could triple what I indicated is possible. It could produce the equivalent of 2 nuclear power plants. If they needed 3 they could expand the panels in the areas where the land is affordable (desolate areas) and have 3.
Hyperloop is unproven. High speed rail is proven. If I had to bet on one, it would be high speed rail.
 

jmotivator

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In the article he discussed the movement of air from in front of the car / tube suggesting its moved under the vehicle to allow it to float and the amount of energy needed is serious which is why the tubes are to be covered in solar panels to provide the power.

The populations in between the two destinations, particularly along Highway 5 that he envisioned using are minuscule and not really deserving of mass transport at the people's cost.
Teleportation is easy enough to propose, but impossible to implement. Elon's plan is the same kind of proposition. SAYING you will pump air out of the way of a 800mph projectile is the easy. Demonstrating that it is possible is something else entirely.

Also:

images.jpg
 

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I envision the "thing" (?) as a double-tube process, where two platforms travel in opposite directions within the closed circuit tub. From a visual standpoint, imagine connecting a garden hose to itself.



There are immense security concerns, which leads me to believe such a machine would need to be operated underground.
 

CalGun

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The state of California just built a Bay Bridge expansion the design of which was never proven? This is a lame argument and I don't mean offense by it - but when a BETTER solution is presented at 1/10th of the cost that is 6x better only government is inept enough to ignore it.


Hyperloop is unproven. High speed rail is proven. If I had to bet on one, it would be high speed rail.
 

CalGun

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Why would the security concern be any different for a high speed train or any train for that matter?


I envision the "thing" (?) as a double-tube process, where two platforms travel in opposite directions within the closed circuit tub. From a visual standpoint, imagine connecting a garden hose to itself.



There are immense security concerns, which leads me to believe such a machine would need to be operated underground.
 

CalGun

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He presented a plan that would do just that, and a means to create the energy necessary to do that. The proposal he wrote / authored suggests a cost of $6 billion. The "high speed 125 mph" rail is set to cost $70 to $200 billion. Wouldn't it be prudent to prove / disprove this concept before wasting $200 billion on a boondoggle that could be antiquated before its even finished?

The only people I could see wanting to continue ahead with the existing monstrosity is those about done with the bay bridge project and need another $275 hr job?


Teleportation is easy enough to propose, but impossible to implement. Elon's plan is the same kind of proposition. SAYING you will pump air out of the way of a 800mph projectile is the easy. Demonstrating that it is possible is something else entirely.

Also:

View attachment 67152028
 

Kushinator

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Why would the security concern be any different for a high speed train or any train for that matter?
The fact that it will travel at what, 800 mph. What happens when a game hunter misses or an environmental wacko crashes a tractor into it?
 

CalGun

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Well the exact same thing happens to it as to a high speed rail train. Oh except the HSR train carries what - 600 or 800 passengers and this 20? Hmm so which one is safer again?


The fact that it will travel at what, 800 mph. What happens when a game hunter misses or an environmental wacko crashes a tractor into it?
 

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CA's High Speed Rail Authority is planning on a 125 mph train, a rail line that is so secret that even though they aim to break ground this month we don't even know which path they are going to take. They say it's $70 billion, but that it will take 20 years to build so the number is likely $200 billion. The Loop would be under $10 billion and 6x as fast.

BTW I was conservative with the solar panel ability. You could triple what I indicated is possible. It could produce the equivalent of 2 nuclear power plants. If they needed 3 they could expand the panels in the areas where the land is affordable (desolate areas) and have 3.
Does the "under $10 billion" number include the cost of the right-of-way, the environmental impact statements, and the centuries of legal billing to fight off the eco-Nazis?
 

CalGun

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These burdens are worse for high speed rail and yes I think he includes them.

He noted in his study the project is elevated and needs a very small foot print - he even noted that it should mirror and follow one of our freeways which is totally feasble. They won't do this with high speed rail becuase it bipasses a few population areas that have kicked and screamed for their pork project. The eco nazis would have a hard time fighting a project that is solar powered, consumes practically not space, creates no emmissions, and wouldn't even kill a deer because it can't walk onto the tube.

The more and more questions that seem to come up; the clearer this becomes as a project worthy of scrapping the HSR.

And PS: His number of $10 billion was for a system that people could drive their car onto and drive their car off on the other side. The passenger only system was $6 billion.

Does the "under $10 billion" number include the cost of the right-of-way, the environmental impact statements, and the centuries of legal billing to fight off the eco-Nazis?
 

Kushinator

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Well the exact same thing happens to it as to a high speed rail train. Oh except the HSR train carries what - 600 or 800 passengers and this 20? Hmm so which one is safer again?
My money is on the passenger train.
 

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He presented a plan that would do just that, and a means to create the energy necessary to do that. The proposal he wrote / authored suggests a cost of $6 billion. The "high speed 125 mph" rail is set to cost $70 to $200 billion. Wouldn't it be prudent to prove / disprove this concept before wasting $200 billion on a boondoggle that could be antiquated before its even finished?

The only people I could see wanting to continue ahead with the existing monstrosity is those about done with the bay bridge project and need another $275 hr job?

He has presented a plan with no functional prototype that makes claims that are untested and seem impossible. That's your first two clues.
 
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