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What Happens If There's No Counter-Protest?

OlNate

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I appreciate your candor.

Ya, it's one of those times I don't feel the need to *****foot around, and frankly I'm surprised I'm in such a minority of folks willing to say it. There was a time that white supremacists wouldn't get an ounce of support from either the left OR the right. I went to high school in probably one of the most conservative / Christian / rural areas of Ontario, and the few guys that tried to go "skinhead" quickly decided it was a good idea to grow that hair back and lose those swastika patches if they wanted to avoid daily ass kickings.

The sad part about this, other than the obvious specifics tied to the incident (aka dead and injured), is that I don't think the majority of the right condones this garbage either...but we are so "my side" vs "your side" that a lot of you are being dragged down to defending them merely to ensure that no ground is lost to "the Leftists". This shouldn't be a Left vs. Right thing, any more than condemning pedophiles, human traffickers, con artists who prey on seniors, or thieves who steal from orphanages. Some stuff is so sketch, so scuzzy, so "deplorable" (if I can use that word), that Left and Right should be able to shake of partisanship and say "Ya, we've got major differences, and we don't like each other, but let's take a break for a sec and make sure that when we're done fighting over this country, we're not left with a truck stop toilet". You and I have brawled lots of times, but I would fight by your side to get these assholes to STFU, so that we can go back to fighting, knowing there is something worth fighting for.
 

OlNate

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Anyone who resorts to violence:

left
right
center
gay
straight
male
female
AntiFa
Neo-Nazi
Transgender
Transexual
Alien
Black
White
Brown
Purple

is not only a complete a-hole, but should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I disagree. When dealing with people who only understand violence, the only way to deal with them is with violence. Otherwise what's the point of the 2nd amendment, the concept of self defense, the concept of national defense.... I wouldn't shed a tear for the white supremacist who takes a brick in the face while forcing people to listen to their garbage rhetoric, and I wouldn't think less of the person who threw it.
 

MaggieD

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No, it wasn't. Go lurk for a few minutes on any white nationalist nest. They're panicking over this, because they KNOW it has turned people off from them. Things got too intense too quickly, and it was one of them who wound up dialing it to 11. Some of their own members have actually left because of this -- either because they've had a change of heart, or because they just don't wanna lose their jobs over someone finding out.

This was not a victory. They know they have an uphill battle gaining traction in America, and bad press is bad right now. They're bigots, not stupid. This was a loss for them and they know it.

You may have a point. If they lose membership, that's a good thing, so if you're right about that, then I stand corrected.

I just don't think any of them are normal people. I think they're a band of misfits and sociopaths. Their beliefs are so ridiculous that thinking they really care what other people think of them, I think, is a stretch.
 

AGENT J

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Suppose the worst, most vile and hated "lawful assembly" you've ever heard of is coming to a town near you.
You're incensed and disgusted by the mere thought of the people who would actually support such hideous thoughts and ideologies.
That they have enough "power" to hold a public demonstration, and get legal protection to do so makes your blood boil.
At least 1000 people are projected to attend this protest.

Now, suppose this:

There are absolutely no counter-protesters anywhere. None.

What would that signify? What would it accomplish? What might it condone?

Does the size of the counter-protest mean something?

Would it actually send a stronger message if there was no counter-protest at all?

If the entire event was ignored, would that be the best "counter-punch" to those who would attend?

What's a bigger thrill for the original protesters? Silence, or a loud and extreme counter-protest?

Seems like a reasonable POSSIBLE solution but IMO more than that would need done. if they have permits their permits should have restrictions to a location that can still be controlled.
My point is depending on where they protest keeping them from interacting with people would still be tough. If that can be limited too im all for ignoring them or keeping protesters completely separated.

put them in a venue in evening hours, seclude them and ignore them <shrug>
 

Harshaw

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Well, these white nationalists do these kinds of provocative demonstrations in order to get reactions out of people (hence the word 'provocative'). If people just paid them no mind, and ignored them entirely, maybe we'd see less of these demonstrations take place.

That is generally true in practice. There are numerous white nationalist rallies and KKK marches you've never heard of, because no one paid them any attention.

But if people show up, what they should do is laugh. Laugh uproariously. Laugh while saying "you're pulling or leg, right?" Just laugh and laugh and laugh.
 

SmokeAndMirrors

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You may have a point. If they lose membership, that's a good thing, so if you're right about that, then I stand corrected.

I just don't think any of them are normal people. I think they're a band of misfits and sociopaths. Their beliefs are so ridiculous that thinking they really care what other people think of them, I think, is a stretch.

Well, look at who they're they targeting, Maggie. Kids. They're targeting kids, 13 to 20. That's why they're so deep into memes. Who WASN'T a misfit at that age?

I'm sure a lot of them really are sociopaths. But a lot of them are kids who've been inundated with this stuff at the most vulnerable part of their lives. And a lot of them didn't even go looking for it. They didn't have to.

If you know what you're looking for, you will see their dog-whistles EVERYWHERE on social media. Obviously (apart from the occasional lurk for reasons like seeing how they reacted to Charlottesville) I don't hang out in the Nazi-sphere. But I see their dog-whistles EVERY DAY on YouTube, Reddit, Tumblr, etc. I can't throw a rock without hitting a white nationalist.

And a lot of today's 15-year-olds are even more deeply embedded in social media than I am. None of them go a day without seeing it coded in some way, both in traditional linguistic form, and also in meme form. And like all codes, they're MEANT to be somewhat obscure in terms of their meaning. So kids start out seeing something that doesn't at first appear to have a white nationalist slant, so they start talking to them, and by the time they realize where they are, they've already been bathing in propaganda.

They're kids. And a lot of them can be taken back from this stuff.
 
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Rogue Valley

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I have relatives that died fighting Nazism in Europe during WWII. I believe we have a moral obligation to [peacefully] protest when Nazis come marching in our communities.

Niemoeller.jpg
 

MrPeanut

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What is the "best way to beat them", in your opinion?

Straight up confrontation is not going to work.
In fact, that's what "they" want. Right?

I like the idea of a counter protest. I don't support violence during these protests, but a lot of that really is on the police and the mayor to make sure they are adequately prepared. Keep these groups separated to the best of your abilities. I don't think you can defeat a message by hoping it goes away.
 

Perotista

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GOP voter turnout in the Utah-3 CD and the GOP senate primary in Alabama was very low. Once again, the Trafalgar Group nailed the GOP results almost exactly in Alabama. Looks to me like turnout in the midterm will be a problem for the GOP.

When the DEM candidate Doug Jones, 61% and no divisive runoff, was brought up by GOPs, they immediately zoomed to Pelosi and Schumer. This schtick won't work forever; typical for GOPs to offer negative instead of positives.

The Alabama general for this special senate election is in December; Utah on 11/7/17; Ossoff is considering another run at the GA-6 CD ;;

The Pelosi schtick Will work in GOP districts. She is the number one hated Democrat by Republicans. Schumer not so much as most of those stirred up by Pelosi don't know who Schumer is. Pelosi was once Speaker of the House, a high profile hatred developed. Reid as Senate majority leader also had a high profile hatred. Schumer, perhaps low profile hatred, but many don't have the slightest idea who he is.

Turnout, there could be two things at work there. Where Trump is going to drive Democrats to the polls in the midterms, he may hurt the GOP turnout. You always had around 20% of Republicans who didn't like Trump one bit and still don't. The question is if the midterms are about Trump, how many of those stay home instead of voting for their Republican senators and congressmen? With no Hillary Clinton which they disliked a whole lot more than Trump, of course in the general they would come out for vote Trump, I should say vote against Clinton, not necessarily for Trump.

Its way too early to tell at this point. What is interesting is Trump's job approval is down from 90% at the end of January to 75% today among Republicans. There will be no Hillary Clinton to unite the party for the midterms. You may indeed have a higher than usual turnout among Democrats for the midterms and lower among Republicans. One other item, overall approval of Democrats in congress is at 36%, 21% among independents. Overall approval of Republicans in congress is at 22% and only 10% among independents.

36% is nothing to be proud at. But it's great when compared to the GOP numbers. The polls don't break it down, but some of that wide gap may be Trump supporters mad at the GOP congress critters for not supporting Trump and vice versa.
 

Dragonfly

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The Pelosi schtick Will work in GOP districts. She is the number one hated Democrat by Republicans. Schumer not so much as most of those stirred up by Pelosi don't know who Schumer is. Pelosi was once Speaker of the House, a high profile hatred developed. Reid as Senate majority leader also had a high profile hatred. Schumer, perhaps low profile hatred, but many don't have the slightest idea who he is.

Turnout, there could be two things at work there. Where Trump is going to drive Democrats to the polls in the midterms, he may hurt the GOP turnout. You always had around 20% of Republicans who didn't like Trump one bit and still don't. The question is if the midterms are about Trump, how many of those stay home instead of voting for their Republican senators and congressmen? With no Hillary Clinton which they disliked a whole lot more than Trump, of course in the general they would come out for vote Trump, I should say vote against Clinton, not necessarily for Trump.

Its way too early to tell at this point. What is interesting is Trump's job approval is down from 90% at the end of January to 75% today among Republicans. There will be no Hillary Clinton to unite the party for the midterms. You may indeed have a higher than usual turnout among Democrats for the midterms and lower among Republicans. One other item, overall approval of Democrats in congress is at 36%, 21% among independents. Overall approval of Republicans in congress is at 22% and only 10% among independents.

36% is nothing to be proud at. But it's great when compared to the GOP numbers. The polls don't break it down, but some of that wide gap may be Trump supporters mad at the GOP congress critters for not supporting Trump and vice versa.

Does any of this have anything to do with the thread's OP and related conversations?
 

Dragonfly

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That is generally true in practice. There are numerous white nationalist rallies and KKK marches you've never heard of, because no one paid them any attention.

But if people show up, what they should do is laugh. Laugh uproariously. Laugh while saying "you're pulling or leg, right?" Just laugh and laugh and laugh.

And be sure to get plenty of hi-res videos of it all.
 

Dragonfly

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I like the idea of a counter protest. I don't support violence during these protests, but a lot of that really is on the police and the mayor to make sure they are adequately prepared. Keep these groups separated to the best of your abilities. I don't think you can defeat a message by hoping it goes away.

Surely not having adequate means to protect the safety of people and property is a valid reason to prohibit some of these protests.

Some towns just don't have the resources.
 

Dragonfly

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Here, to answer one of my own concerns:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/richard-spencer-denied-at-university-of-florida-trnd/index.html

However, the First Amendment does not require a public institution to risk imminent violence to students and others."


The right for some group's free speech and freedom to assemble, does not over-ride the rights to the safety of the surrounding people and property.


Denying a permit to assemble under the fear of violence is not unconstitutional. Is it?
 

countryboy

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You are defined by the company you keep regardless.

You sure you want to roll with that statement? I'm guessing you voted for O'Bama, twice (at least).
 

Perotista

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Do you have anything to add to the topic of the thread?

I did on several post prior to being asked a question. I think it is common courtesy to answer questions asked. You don't?
 

CrabCake

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Suppose the worst, most vile and hated "lawful assembly" you've ever heard of is coming to a town near you.
You're incensed and disgusted by the mere thought of the people who would actually support such hideous thoughts and ideologies.
That they have enough "power" to hold a public demonstration, and get legal protection to do so makes your blood boil.
At least 1000 people are projected to attend this protest.

Now, suppose this:

There are absolutely no counter-protesters anywhere. None.

What would that signify? What would it accomplish? What might it condone?

Does the size of the counter-protest mean something?

Would it actually send a stronger message if there was no counter-protest at all?

If the entire event was ignored, would that be the best "counter-punch" to those who would attend?

What's a bigger thrill for the original protesters? Silence, or a loud and extreme counter-protest?

They would certainly be disappointed if they got no attention. Their entire goal is to get attention so if a march didn't work it's not as if they would give up and go away for ever. It would mean they need to be louder and more confrontational until they do get the attention they are after. If a march wasn't enough then maybe they burn crosses and if that's not enough, maybe they take over a Federal wildlife refuge. They aren't going to give up if they are ignored, they'll just get louder and worse.
 
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tosca1

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Suppose the worst, most vile and hated "lawful assembly" you've ever heard of is coming to a town near you.
You're incensed and disgusted by the mere thought of the people who would actually support such hideous thoughts and ideologies.
That they have enough "power" to hold a public demonstration, and get legal protection to do so makes your blood boil.
At least 1000 people are projected to attend this protest.

Now, suppose this:

There are absolutely no counter-protesters anywhere. None.

What would that signify? What would it accomplish? What might it condone?

Does the size of the counter-protest mean something?

Would it actually send a stronger message if there was no counter-protest at all?

If the entire event was ignored, would that be the best "counter-punch" to those who would attend?

What's a bigger thrill for the original protesters? Silence, or a loud and extreme counter-protest?


It also depends on what kind of "counter protest" some people have in mind. In Quebec City, the counter-protesters went berserk and started hurling chairs and bottles, did some vandalism......just because they can't get at the nationalists La Muete, who were holed up at the City Hall garage.

These are the counter-protesters:





 

Slingshot Bob

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Well, these white nationalists do these kinds of provocative demonstrations in order to get reactions out of people (hence the word 'provocative'). If people just paid them no mind, and ignored them entirely, maybe we'd see less of these demonstrations take place.

They would do what they usually do, parade around with flags and chant racist drivel and pack up and leave when happy hour rolls around.
 

fredmertzz

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Well, these white nationalists do these kinds of provocative demonstrations in order to get reactions out of people (hence the word 'provocative'). If people just paid them no mind, and ignored them entirely, maybe we'd see less of these demonstrations take place.

I like this line of thinking, but I think it's a bit optimistic.

I believe:

They would NOT think "Oh... no one cares what we think"

They would think "They're scared of us. We have power."

And those against them would think "We're in the minority; look at their numbers! And nobody is doing anything about it. I should remain hidden."
 

Fenton Lum

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blackjack50

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Suppose the worst, most vile and hated "lawful assembly" you've ever heard of is coming to a town near you.
You're incensed and disgusted by the mere thought of the people who would actually support such hideous thoughts and ideologies.
That they have enough "power" to hold a public demonstration, and get legal protection to do so makes your blood boil.
At least 1000 people are projected to attend this protest.

Now, suppose this:

There are absolutely no counter-protesters anywhere. None.

What would that signify? What would it accomplish? What might it condone?

Does the size of the counter-protest mean something?

Would it actually send a stronger message if there was no counter-protest at all?

If the entire event was ignored, would that be the best "counter-punch" to those who would attend?

What's a bigger thrill for the original protesters? Silence, or a loud and extreme counter-protest?

Good question. I feel ignoring them is usually the best bet. Especially as far as the media is concerned. Why give them free press? Why show them you care? Haters gonna hate.




The crowd is not the sum of its parts.

I am a republican who did not vote for Trump (Or Hillary).
 

blackjack50

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What's this guy look like?

Georgia GOP Rep. Tells Former Colleague She May ‘Go Missing’ Over Criticism of Confederate Monuments

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/29...sing-over-criticism-of-confederate-monuments/

If he actually said that? Corrupt. Scummy. But it doesn't change that assaulting people and destroying public property is against the law.




The crowd is not the sum of its parts.

I am a republican who did not vote for Trump (Or Hillary).
 
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