What happened to us? (1 Viewer)

[POLITICAL JEDI]

How did we get from ""Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists and every government that supports them," "And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism." to a place that lets hundreds of thousands march in the streets of a country we liberated, shouting: "Death to America" "Death to Israel"?

And can someone please tell me how we got to a place that allows Iran and Syria to fund and arm their client, terrorist group Hezbollah, and then have hezbollah attack democratic Israel with Katusha rockets without a response on Iran and Syria? What the hell are we doin? What are we waiting for?

From the reports I've read, hezbollahs leader enjoys the shelter of the Iranian embassy while planning his next attack. Syria's Assad, and Iran's Ahmadinejad are enjoying comfort rather then bombardment.

If this is the best Bush has got in the "war on terror" then 3 more years in Iraq is a waste. It's a waste because the ideology of hate, wrapped up in religion, martyrdom, and fascism remains. This is what needs fighting. This is what must be brought to it's knees.

When we look to history, at the past ideologies that were defeated, we should be mindful of how they were defeated. Germany and Japan were defeated by a vicious military campaign that systematicly destroyed their youth, cities, and government. After we were done with them, their ideology and their will to make war was brought to it's knees. If it took this amazing display of death and destruction to bring down these ideologies, and after seeing our democracy experiment in Iraq turn to *****, what should make us think anything short of what happened to Germany and Japan isn't whats required today to achieve total victory? I think we need to stop with the experiments and let the bodies hit the floor. Then after enough blood has been spilt, after enough cities have been destroyed, after a feeling of complete dispare has encompassed our enemies, then and only then, should we start up with the experiments again.

 

[cherokee]

How did we get from ""Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists and every government that supports them," "And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism." to a place that lets hundreds of thousands march in the streets of a country we liberated, shouting: "Death to America" "Death to Israel"?

And can someone please tell me how we got to a place that allows Iran and Syria to fund and arm their client, terrorist group Hezbollah, and then have hezbollah attack democratic Israel with Katusha rockets without a response on Iran and Syria? What the hell are we doin? What are we waiting for?

From the reports I've read, hezbollahs leader enjoys the shelter of the Iranian embassy while planning his next attack. Syria's Assad, and Iran's Ahmadinejad are enjoying comfort rather then bombardment.

If this is the best Bush has got in the "war on terror" then 3 more years in Iraq is a waste. It's a waste because the ideology of hate, wrapped up in religion, martyrdom, and fascism remains. This is what needs fighting. This is what must be brought to it's knees.

When we look to history, at the past ideologies that were defeated, we should be mindful of how they were defeated. Germany and Japan were defeated by a vicious military campaign that systematicly destroyed their youth, cities, and government. After we were done with them, their ideology and their will to make war was brought to it's knees. If it took this amazing display of death and destruction to bring down these ideologies, and after seeing our democracy experiment in Iraq turn to *****, what should make us think anything short of what happened to Germany and Japan isn't whats required today to achieve total victory? I think we need to stop with the experiments and let the bodies hit the floor. Then after enough blood has been spilt, after enough cities have been destroyed, after a feeling of complete dispare has encompassed our enemies, then and only then, should we start up with the experiments again.

I have always believed in the rules of war with the first rule being
Don’t go unless you absolute have to.
The next rule is you do whatever it takes to crush your enemy and everything that supports him. Period! The third rule is innocent people will be killed they always are.

Now some will say this is heartless and cold but you know what?
War isn’t meant to be nice.

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

I have always believed in the rules of war with the first rule being
Don’t go unless you absolute have to.
The next rule is you do whatever it takes to crush your enemy and everything that supports him. Period! The third rule is innocent people will be killed they always are.

Now some will say this is heartless and cold but you know what?
War isn’t meant to be nice.

Yea thats all well and good, but I'm still pissed. Pissed that I put my trust into a man that 5 years ago held up the sheild of a fallen NYPD and told the world that this was his reminder of 9/11 and to the task that lay ahead. . .Only to fold like a cheap suit 5 years later in the face of the terrorist supporting Iran and Syria.

 

[Voidwar]

You only have eight more days of waiting.

Tehran told Condi that we will know what we need to know about Iran's Nuclear program on August 22.

This is an anniversary of some note in Islam :

Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as "by the end of August," but Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement was more precise.
What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

NOTE: I am not a conspiracy nutjob, but I do know that in the Islamic world things are done on anniversaries to give them greater portent, and celestial signs are also often used to lend an air of destiny. . .

So, Just to make it extra special . . . Does anyone watch the Star Hustler ?
He's the likable little kook that does the PBS show about stargazing. Happened to catch his show, and it was about the Dawn sky that week, , ,

Link
Star Gazer Five Minute August 14, 2006 - August 20, 2006

"A Pre-Dawn Planet Cluster Awaits You Next Week"

Apparently, at dawn on the 22nd of August, three planets will be semi-aligned and quite near the slim crescent moon, in a configuration resembling a vertical line. . .
(Luna)
\___/ * (Venus)
. . . . * (Saturn)
. . . . * (Mercury)

 

[RightOfCenter]

You only have eight more days of waiting.

Tehran told Condi that we will know what we need to know about Iran's Nuclear program on August 22.

That statement frightens me. I have heard that followers of Islam believe that their Armageddon can not happen until the Jews have been destroyed (don't remember where I heard this so I am prepared to be ripped apart by nogoodname, volker, python, and every other Muslim/Anti-Semite that frequents this website.) If I were a religous man I would call this the beginning of the end, but instead I am going to call it a ****ed up religion trying to start Dooms Day.

 

[MSgt]

Yea thats all well and good, but I'm still pissed. Pissed that I put my trust into a man that 5 years ago held up the sheild of a fallen NYPD and told the world that this was his reminder of 9/11 and to the task that lay ahead. . .Only to fold like a cheap suit 5 years later in the face of the terrorist supporting Iran and Syria.

The "task ahead" is going to take generations and more than one single President. The task ahead involves a lot more than just Iraq. Bush began something that our enemies were determined to place before us. It is going to be up to future presidents to continue this generational goal. In the mean time, a lot of Muslims are going to get angry and act upon the hate they already had. They can die along with their terrorists.

An entire region cannot reform in just three years because one single country was attacked. One thing is sure - President Bush made it perfectly clear to our "allies" that Americans will not live and die anymore based on the sentiments of "Old Europe" and their sense of "right." This means that when it comes time to militarily deal with Syria and Iran (and the time will come), America will mostly stand alone. Our "allies" will hide their cowardice under words like "soveriegn." - And just watch...many Americans, who don't even wear a uniform and will not even be in harms way, will cower under that same word.

 

[MSgt]

If I were a religous man I would call this the beginning of the end, but instead I am going to call it a ****ed up religion trying to start Dooms Day.

You are correct. The terrorists of Islam wish to jump start armegeddon and there are literally millions and millions of Radicals that cheer them on as doing their "god's" work. Although his vision is closer to the grimmest passages of Revelation than to anything in the Qu'ran, Osama (along with most of the religious Islamic right) have been able to convince countless Muslims that his vision is of the purist and proudest Islamic form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west about the spiritual crisis in the Middle East. This battle is being fought within the realms of the emotions and soul, not of the intelligent. We face a situation that is so perverse that it is as if tens of millions of frustrated Christians decided that Kali, the Hindu Goddess of death and destruction, embodies the true teachings of Jesus Christ.


But, to so many ignorant individuals around the globe who lack the capacity to think beyond what a politician or a commentator tells them, this is all about what Osama say's - "if we only just leave Saudi Arabia and turn our backs on Israel then all will be fine." They never stop to think that "apocalyptic" terrorist demands are always impractical and impossible to grant by design.

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

You are correct. The terrorists of Islam wish to jump start armegeddon and there are literally millions and millions of Radicals that cheer them on as doing their "god's" work. Although his vision is closer to the grimmest passages of Revelation than to anything in the Qu'ran, Osama (along with most of the religious Islamic right) have been able to convince countless Muslims that his vision is of the purist and proudest Islamic form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west about the spiritual crisis in the Middle East. This battle is being fought within the realms of the emotions and soul, not of the intelligent. We face a situation that is so perverse that it is as if tens of millions of frustrated Christians decided that Kali, the Hindu Goddess of death and destruction, embodies the true teachings of Jesus Christ.


But, to so many ignorant individuals around the globe who lack the capacity to think beyond what a politician or a commentator tells them, this is all about what Osama say's - "if we only just leave Saudi Arabia and turn our backs on Israel then all will be fine." They never stop to think that "apocalyptic" terrorist demands are always impractical and impossible to grant by design.

I noticed you past over my 2 post in light of opinions that really don't have a damn thing to do with the topic of this thread. As a faithful, seemingly intelligent "man of arms" do you agree with my views? If not, why?

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

I noticed you past over my 2 post in light of opinions that really don't have a damn thing to do with the topic of this thread. As a faithful, seemingly intelligent "man of arms" do you agree with my views? If not, why?

Sorry, I missed your post.

 

[Shayah]

Israel is well aware of the true situation. George Bush is well aware of the true situation. Europe? Not yet. Despite increasing wake up calls, they continue to worship the God of Appeasement. It seems that once again Europe repeats its historical mistakes and will have to re-learn this historical lesson the hard way.

 

[MSgt]

I noticed you past over my 2 post in light of opinions that really don't have a damn thing to do with the topic of this thread. As a faithful, seemingly intelligent "man of arms" do you agree with my views? If not, why?

I addressed your views, but if you wish for something more concrete and easier to understand....

I agree to an extent. Thus far, we have been very much fighting this war with our gloves on, but we simply do not have the military strength to sustain a war of such magnitude that you are suggesting. It is simply not practical to do what we need to. Like I said on this very thread, this very larger war we are currently engaged in will take generations and does not stop with Iraq. It is not something that one President will be able to do. The first step is for people to recognize that this is not Japan or Germany. This is not a war against conventional campaigns. This war is very much being fought within the break down of a religion. Germans didn't slaughter Jews, homos, or gypsies, because God commanded it. The Japanese weren't on a quest to conquer their "God's" land back from "non-believers." Whenever "God" is introduced as the fuel for the violence, determination has a new meaning. It makes the situation that more dangerous for our civilians who are now targets. There is absolutely nothing we can do that will sooth the rage of the man who blames another culture for his own failures and who hears "God's" violent commands, short of killing him.

Aside from a very few handful of true allies, we are very much alone and we are very much over tasked militarily around the globe....

The "unclassified" situation:

--Chad = U.S. Marines
--Ethiopia = U.S. Marines
--Bosnia = U.S. Marines and soldiers
--Iraq = U.S. Marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen, few coalition forces
--Afghanistan = U.S. Marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen, minimum of coalition forces.
--Phillipines = U.S. Marines and soldiers

To the side of our direct military involvement, Israeli forces are attacking Hezbollah inside Lebanon and getting nothing but criticism from the world for it.

Also to the side of our military action, we are currently diplomatically dealing with Iran's nuke issue, Somalia's Islamic warlord situation, Indonesia's homegrown and Al-Queda situation, Pakistan's homegrown and Al-Queda situation.

And of course, we have the U.S. Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen stationed throughout the world on military bases in foreign countries and in embassies.

It isn't a question of forming "coalitions" and getting the UN involved. Nothing is stopping the rest of the world from jumping in and helping out, but their own cowardice, selfishness, and slothfullness. They choose to stand by and criticize. They choose to do nothing. They choose to let us stick our hands in the fire to pat it out as they sit in comfort and hope that they don't have to get involved. Of course, we also have our own American citizens who no more understand the situation than they do their own hypocritical roles in today's worldly problems. Their opinions change on the whim of the next political speech or poll.

It's one thing to declare what is needed. It is something else to find support for it. President Bush (despite mistakes along the way) seems to get the bigger issue, but lacks the ability or the freedom to express this on international television. It is up to the individual to study this region and understand what is going on. No politician will dare announce today's threats and their environment on international television and other polticians will take full adbatage of it for votes. If doing nothing is easier and stays the violence off for another generation to deal with....then that is exactly what will be done. 9/11 happened because yesterday's generation chose to look the other way as Radical Islam started building in the late 70's. Today's generation hides under the PC notion that we can talk our way out of this mess as they fashionably criticize anything out of the Bush administration. Tomorrow's generation will die for it as they wage an over due war against this diseased civilization.

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

The "task ahead" is going to take generations and more than one single President. The task ahead involves a lot more than just Iraq. Bush began something that our enemies were determined to place before us. It is going to be up to future presidents to continue this generational goal. In the mean time, a lot of Muslims are going to get angry and act upon the hate they already had. They can die along with their terrorists.

An entire region cannot reform in just three years because one single country was attacked. One thing is sure - President Bush made it perfectly clear to our "allies" that Americans will not live and die anymore based on the sentiments of "Old Europe" and their sense of "right." This means that when it comes time to militarily deal with Syria and Iran (and the time will come), America will mostly stand alone. Our "allies" will hide their cowardice under words like "soveriegn." - And just watch...many Americans, who don't even wear a uniform and will not even be in harms way, will cower under that same word.

Not really sure what you consider "old europe" where your going with that statement. The E.U. 3 (Germany, France, and England) were involved in negotiations with Iran for 3 years to give up it's nuclear ambitions. They fully understand the dangers of Iran weilding nuclear weapons. They also fully understand what being in range of a nuclear tipped Iranian missile means. They failed spectacularly! Thus the reason a couple of months ago they come "hat in hand" to Washington asking, in fact begging America to take up their failed negotiations.

I totally understand that there are cowards in the international community. Cowards that either prefer stability or think that Islamic fascist will pass them by if only they keep their mouths shut and put their heads in the sand. Nobody supported Bush and his foreign policy more then me. But I can't help but feel that last month, we turned coward in the face of Iran and Syria's involvement against launching a "terror war" against Israel. Instead of turning coward, I think we should have made it clear to Iran and Syria that there is a high price to be paid for this treachery, and have our military bring them the bill.

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

Does this work or am I still spouting off "opinions that don't have damn thing to do" with your thread?

Dude relax. I said I was sorry for missing your post. No harm, No foul, it's all good.

 

[MSgt]

Not really sure what you consider "old europe" where your going with that statement. The E.U. 3 (Germany, France, and England) were involved in negotiations with Iran for 3 years to give up it's nuclear ambitions. They fully understand the dangers of Iran weilding nuclear weapons. They also fully understand what being in range of a nuclear tipped Iranian missile means. They failed spectacularly! Thus the reason a couple of months ago they come "hat in hand" to Washington asking, in fact begging America to take up their failed negotiations.

"Old Europe" is exactly what you just described - "They talked to Iran for 3 years." Europe is the continent of words.

"Old Europe" is the corrupt sham sustained by the core countries of Europe (France and Germany) that a dictator, no matter how cruel and illegitimate, is untouchable behind his "sovereign" borders.

The essential purpose of European diplomacy has been, and remains, the preservation of the powerful, by the powerful, for the powerful. Wherever in the world we see a dictatorship protected by diplomatic custom and webs of trade, we see an outpost of "Old Europe."

It is a European tradition for a tyrant to be sustained by a bureaucracy of terror. Those that accuse us of "murder" and "attrocity" bear the weight of millions of corpses in their history. This continent perfected genocide. "Old Europe" pioneered the methods that people like Saddam merely imitate.

It is also a European tradition to do the bare minimum and expect benefits ensured by American sweat and blood. They will not do what America will do for them. "Old Europe's" attitude towards Bosnia was to deliberate over it as American troops crossed the ocean, yet again, to bleed on their continent.

I totally understand that there are cowards in the international community. Cowards that either prefer stability or think that Islamic fascist will pass them by if only they keep their mouths shut and put their heads in the sand. Nobody supported Bush and his foreign policy more then me. But I can't help but feel that last month, we turned coward in the face of Iran and Syria's involvement against launching a "terror war" against Israel. Instead of turning coward, I think we should have made it clear to Iran and Syria that there is a high price to be paid for this treachery, and have our military bring them the bill.

We have to be practical. We can not take on this fanaticism by ourselves - not while being so spread out in the absence of our "allies."

 

[Symmetrical_Argument]

The essential purpose of European diplomacy has been, and remains, the preservation of the powerful, by the powerful, for the powerful. Wherever in the world we see a dictatorship protected by diplomatic custom and webs of trade, we see an outpost of "Old Europe."

Your post seems like a perfect description of US psuedo imperialism.
http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

 

[PrimBabUB]

How did we get from ""Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists and every government that supports them," "And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism." to a place that lets hundreds of thousands march in the streets of a country we liberated, shouting: "Death to America" "Death to Israel"?

How did we get to 'a place' that allows this? Ask the Dims and Libbie PC police how this happened. It would be nice to lobe a rocket right in the middle of these people shouting "Death to America" "Death to Israel" and perhaps we should start with the ones right here in America. A DNC convention would be a good place to start.

And can someone please tell me how we got to a place that allows Iran and Syria to fund and arm their client, terrorist group Hezbollah, and then have hezbollah attack democratic Israel with Katusha rockets without a response on Iran and Syria? What the hell are we doin? What are we waiting for?

I suppose we are waiting for them to kill countless more of us before the Anti-American half of this country are convinced that they really mean to see us destroyed. As if 9/11 wasn't proof enough.

From the reports I've read, hezbollahs leader enjoys the shelter of the Iranian embassy while planning his next attack. Syria's Assad, and Iran's Ahmadinejad are enjoying comfort rather then bombardment.

No doubt.

If this is the best Bush has got in the "war on terror" then 3 more years in Iraq is a waste. It's a waste because the ideology of hate, wrapped up in religion, martyrdom, and fascism remains. This is what needs fighting. This is what must be brought to it's knees.

Of course this is what needs fighting. What do you suggest?

When we look to history, at the past ideologies that were defeated, we should be mindful of how they were defeated. Germany and Japan were defeated by a vicious military campaign that systematicly destroyed their youth, cities, and government. After we were done with them, their ideology and their will to make war was brought to it's knees. If it took this amazing display of death and destruction to bring down these ideologies, and after seeing our democracy experiment in Iraq turn to *****, what should make us think anything short of what happened to Germany and Japan isn't whats required today to achieve total victory? I think we need to stop with the experiments and let the bodies hit the floor. Then after enough blood has been spilt, after enough cities have been destroyed, after a feeling of complete dispare has encompassed our enemies, then and only then, should we start up with the experiments again.

I totally agree. When will the Anti-American, dimocratic, liberal half of this country get on board? Probably after Islamic Armageddon is unleased. Perhaps, then, we can take of the PC gloves and do what we have to do to stop this.

 

[MSgt]

Your post seems like a perfect description of US psuedo imperialism.
http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

Learn this now....producing me links that show our reality is highly unnecessary and a bit sophomoric.

Put further thought into it and do your own thinking....

America unquestionably accepted this mentality from our ancestors. We did this all through the Cold War. We foolishly acted on immediate gain and we raced against communism. In the mean time, societies were damaged and hatreds were born. This is exactly what "Old Europe" is. However, we also very much act in the interest of our allies and for the sake of humanity. This is not "Old Europe."

9/11 was the slap in the face our government needed. It was the wake up call our stupid American populace needed. Too long have we twisted our morality and virtues into unrecognizable heaps for the sake of "stability" abroad for our interests. It is time we moved on from this and cast the legacy of Europe aside. Too long have we allowed dictators to ruin their societies under our protection, because the prospect of an unstabalized region seemed too great. Taking out Saddam was a step in the right direction. President Bush has turned away from the murderous logic of European diplomacy, from mechanisms of statecraft that have led only to unchecked aggression and unchallenged genocide. We are the ultimate scapegoat for all failed nations and regions who need to blame outward for internal struggles. We are the ultimate scapegoat for all those nations who cling to the past, despite progress of freedoms creeping in. Our culture is the scapegoat for all the passed down traditions in other cultures that do not work in the 21st century. Our freedoms are the ultimate offense to all those cultures that rely upon a single dogmatic religion for organization and control. We can no longer afford to allow regional failures of the magnitude that we see in the Middle East to occur - and certainly not under our involvement.

The cost of continuing to subscribe to the great-power politics and corrupt behaviors that constitute the European tradition of diplomacy is far too high for humanity to pay. The past is written. The future is being shaped. It is going to be shaped in the form of American freedom or Islamic oppression. The natural course of social progression demands for American freedom, however, the natural course is no longer a luxury. Not in today's furious paced information and nuclear age. Today’s American policy, toward which the times have driven us, is as radically different as our enemies and critics fear. It breaks with a failed and blood-soaked past - "Old Europe." Through President Bush, we have finally accepted that it is no longer enough to wait for enemies to attack first. We have accepted our unique responsibility to intervene abroad in the cause of global security and human rights. It is up to future Presidents to continue or turn back the clock.

And what do some people have only enough intellect or strength to say? - "Iraq was a mistake." It's a shame that they are unwittingly wanting to go back to the status quo (as they complain about that too). Of course, these same individuals also dare to vomit their speeches of "freedom" until America actually embarks on a crusade against religious perversion and persecution to achieve just that.

People don't usually fool me.

 

[POLITICAL JEDI]

We have to be practical. We can not take on this fanaticism by ourselves - not while being so spread out in the absence of our "allies."

Would an intense bombing campaign not be practical? Government buildings, military infrastructure,(including those nuclear sites), bridges, communications. . .that kinda thing? Instead of using their windfall petro dollars to arm and fund hezbollah, they can use the cash to rebuild all that we destroy.

Plus it reminds all in the neighborhood, this is what you can expect when you aid terrrorist.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[MSgt]

Would an intense bombing campaign not be practical? Government buildings, military infrastructure,(including those nuclear sites), bridges, communications. . .that kinda thing? Instead of using their windfall petro dollars to arm and fund hezbollah, they can use the cash to rebuild all that we destroy.

Plus it reminds all in the neighborhood, this is what you can expect when you aid terrrorist.

Just my 2 cents!

Sure, but we have to be careful.

I'm a firm believer in a show of force. We need to impress upon the minds of terrorists and potential terrorists everywhere, and upon the populations and governments inclined to support them, that American retaliation will be powerful and uncompromising. We will never deter fanatics, but we can frighten those who might support, harbor or attempt to use terrorists for their own ends. Our basic task in the world today should be to restore a sense of American power, capabilities and resolve. When in doubt, we should hit harder than we think is necessary. Success will be forgiven. Even the best-intentioned failure will not. When military force is used against terrorist networks, it should be used with such power that it stuns even our allies. We must get over our "cowardice in means." While small-scale raids and other knifepoint operations are useful against individual targets, broader operations should be overwhelming. Of course, targeting limitations may inhibit some efforts - but whenever possible, maximum force should be used to supplement initial target lists with extensive bombing attacks on "nothing" if they can increase the initial psychological impact. We should demonstrate power whenever we can.

Where we must be careful is how we employ our military might. With the attack into Afghanistan, we finally cast off the Clinton-esque style of warfare - "sterile" war. This means that we bomb a target safely from afar, refuse to place troops in, and wait for the polls to reflect favorably. This accomplished nothing in the end. Our government has finally learnd that there is no substitute for putting boots on the ground and killing the enemy.

The other part where we must be careful is that we must refrain from creating a further digression in this environment. Mass religious radicalism always comes from oppression and hate. Further oppression and poverty would not be in our best interest.

 

[Hoot]

I'm a firm believer in a show of force.

I think this is part of the problem.

Many of us believe the solutions to the Mid East do not lie on the battleground.

 

[MSgt]

I think this is part of the problem.

Many of us believe the solutions to the Mid East do not lie on the battleground.

Well, like I have said repeatedly for thousands of posts, most of the solutions to the Middle East do not lie in the battlefield. The vast majority of the work needed to counter the Arab disease of oppression, poverty, and blame lie in a more liberal direction. The "NeoCon" plan is solid until we have to deal with the culture. This is where it is and has always been full of holes. It is the culture that we must focus on. Killing terrorists and removing dictators is only immediate. This is where we need a Democratic Party that can offer solutions and alternatives instead of constant criticisms and underminings.

However, like I have said...the Middle East defies solution. We are stumbling in the dark with very few alternatives to our current and immediate reaction following 9/11. There are options that would greatly enavble us to "combat" this problem through other than military means, but it is doubtful this administration will embark upon them and it is doubtful the next President will have the insight.

 

[Symmetrical_Argument]

The cost of continuing to subscribe to the great-power politics and corrupt behaviors that constitute the European tradition of diplomacy is far too high for humanity to pay. The past is written. The future is being shaped. It is going to be shaped in the form of American freedom or Islamic oppression. The natural course of social progression demands for American freedom, however, the natural course is no longer a luxury. Not in today's furious paced information and nuclear age. Today’s American policy, toward which the times have driven us, is as radically different as our enemies and critics fear. It breaks with a failed and blood-soaked past - "Old Europe." Through President Bush, we have finally accepted that it is no longer enough to wait for enemies to attack first. We have accepted our unique responsibility to intervene abroad in the cause of global security and human rights. It is up to future Presidents to continue or turn back the clock.

I'm glad to see you are honest about US misdeads, but blaming the old Europe for US misdeads is like a child blaming it's parents for bad behaviour. The US was based on genocide of Indians to start with.
"Today’s American policy, toward which the times have driven us, is as radically different as our enemies and critics fear. & we have finally accepted that it is no longer enough to wait for enemies to attack first."
This is the sort of warrior ethos the Nazis preached.
Atack them or they will attack us.
Himler.. 'we kill the Jewish children or they will grow up & kill us'.
Attack Poland becuase we faked an attack by them on us.
Attack Iraq becuase we faked WMD intelligence on them.
How many are dead now in Iraq. Another 911's worth of US soldiers & maybe 100,000 Iraqis all in country that had little or nothing to do with Al Qaeda.
It's been a mistake, Israel's brutal attack on Lebanon has also been mishandled. As Shayah says, the IDF should have dealt with Hizbollah instead of clumsy bombing raids on apartment blocks. That would have been be far more surgical & less indiscriminate. Same anywhere. If you try & reduce the body count by using air power instead of commando type guys, it can backfire. We don't know what the long term consequences of Olmert's useless strategy will be.
You know why so many died on Omahah ?
Lack of people on the ground going in & taking out the machine guns & batteries first in the dark before sending guys to walk in daylight across beaches with German machine guns still in place. They made the mistake of thinking the allied bombing raids had knocked out the guns. Same old mistake just like in WWI in the Somme. They fired thousands of tons of shells. Then send in the infantry without checking to see if they'd taken out the German machine guns first. Lions lead by donkeys.
Of course you did a pretty good job at Pont du hoc, but then we trained your guys
As for Pegasus bridge & Merville batteries. That was just as amazing but hardly heard about since it was the Brits so it hasn't been broadcast by Hollywood.
Then there was David Stirling & a handful of SAS men that with their bare hands & grenades on nightime raids destroyed 100 German planes on the ground in N Africa. More at that time than the RAF had succeeded in destroying. Yet even he eventually had his wings clipped by desk bound a55hole generals.
As for the US cemetry at Omahah. God rest their souls.
But why do they have show a map of Europe on the walls with nothing but groups of stars & stripes on ? The union jacks are only on the beaches. After that it's all made to look as if America alone liberated Europe !
I digress.

 

[MSgt]

I'm glad to see you are honest about US misdeads, but blaming the old Europe for US misdeads is like a child blaming it's parents for bad behaviour. The US was based on genocide of Indians to start with.

An unfortunate dark time in our history. Fortunately, our culture does not celebrate this act century after century. Merely reflecting on the pioneer/Indian part of our history and comparing it to the millions and millions of corpses through designed and sytematic genocides through history of our European "allies" doesn't cut it. You may as well say that Islamic Radicalism poses no threat, because Timmy Mcveigh was a terrorist too.

This is the sort of warrior ethos the Nazis preached. Kill them in case they kill us. Himler, we kill the Jewish children or they will grow up & kill us. Attack Poland becuase we faked an attack by them on us. Attack Iraq becuase we faked WMD intelligence on them.

No it isn't. You are very wrong. And if you believe this then you are twisted in your sentiments. Hitler was after conquest and he used what he did to rally hate. Our efforts against Saddam had everything to do with removing a dictator and silencing a future threat. We are not on some rampage across the Middle East planting the American flag and burning Muslims. We are not out to enslave or even oppress Muslims. We actually have freed over 20 millions Muslims from the brutal oppressor and a portion of them hate us for it (the portion that stood to benefit from Saddam's rule). Your argument would have merit if we invaded Switzerland. Once again...this doesn't cut it.

Iraq is a part of a bigger threat. I will not go into it with you, becuuse the subject has started to bore me and I tire of re-creating the wheel for people who absolutely refuse to understand what we are up against.

*An entire region doesn't reform by leaving dictators and tryants in leadership positions. Like I said...if you don't like our Cold War past....then stop bitching about what we did to turn away from it. Or perhaps you are one of those that like to argue that we had no right to take out Saddam, but bitch about our support of him during the 80's?

How many are dead now in Iraq. Another 911's worth of US soldiers & maybe 100,000 Iraqis all in country that had little or nothing to do with Al Qaeda.

This is where you fall short of understanding. The entire Middle East has everything to do with Al-Queda. It has everything to do with Hezbollah, Hamas, and all the dozens and dozens of other Islamic terrorist organizations that exist throught the region. As long as we only chase down terrorists and ignore the regional failures from where they come...we are punching thin air.

People die in war. People will continue to die until this is over. Whether they die by our hand or people die in the terrorists hands. I fail to see where your argument has solid ground. In every war, the death incurred from beginning to end is always a larger number than the death that started it. Sitting by as our people die slowly from terrorist attack to terrorist attack for fear that we will kill more to stop it or antagonize those that already hate us...is foolish. One could call it cowardice.

It's been a mistake, Israel's brutal attack on Lebanon has also been mishandled. As Shayah says, the IDF should have dealt with Hizbollah instead of clumsy bombing raids on apartment blocks. That would have been be far more surgical & less indiscriminate.
You know why so many died on Omahah ?
Lack of people on the ground going in & taking out the machine guns & batteries first in the dark before sending guys to walk in daylight across beaches with machine guns German still in place. They made the mistake of thinking the allied bombing raids had knocked out the guns. Same old mistake just like in WWI in the Somme. They fired thousands of tons of shells. Then send in the infantry without checking to see if they'd taken out the German machine guns first. Lions lead by donkeys.
Same anywhere. If you try & reduce the body count by using air power instead of commando type guys, it can backfire. We don't know what the long term consequences of Olmert's useless strategy will be.
Of course you did a pretty good job at Pont du hoc, but then we trained your guys
As for Pegasus bridge & Merville batteries. That was just as amazing but hardly heard about since it hasn't been broadcast by Hollywood.
I digress.

The military tactic of softening a target before sending in troops is sound and will persist throughout history. What you are referring to is called "sterile warfare" - The act of bombing a targetted area, without sending troops in and expecting a victory. This tactic is very Clinton-esque and is useless. Nobody surrenders to an aircraft flying above the clouds and dug in combatants need to be gone after. If you are attempting to state that today's threat demands a more surgical and special forces tactic, than you would be correct.

Today's threat is very much going to hide within populations that hate us and they will use the death of their own people to gather support. They will hide behind their people and use their own family members as human shields. We cannot let this deter us from attacking them, but we have to consider becoming more surgical. (The U.S. Marines have been building and training for this for over a decade. The U.S. Army have been focusing more on this since Afghanistan where they performed admirably.) Unfortunately, the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army does not decide when and where to employ.

The future of warfare is going to be the Afghanistans and Iraqs...not the Gulf War.

 

[Symmetrical_Argument]

As long as we only chase down terrorists and ignore the regional failures from where they come...we are punching thin air.

But Iraq was just a dictatorship with thugs loyal to Saddam & they'd probably be shot if they were loyal to anyone else like Al Queda.
Iraq is not the right place to fight a war on terror.

Today's threat is very much going to hide within populations that hate us and they will use the death of their own people to gather support. They will hide behind their people and use their own family members as human shields. We cannot let this deter us from attacking them, but we have to consider becoming more surgical. (The U.S. Marines have been building and training for this for over a decade. The U.S. Army have been focusing more on this since Afghanistan where they performed admirably.) Unfortunately, the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army does not decide when and where to employ.
The future of warfare is going to be the Afghanistans and Iraqs...not the Gulf War.

I can only say that for a huge a huge Soviet army, Afganistan became their Vietnam, so what's different now ?

 

[Iriemon]

Well, like I have said repeatedly for thousands of posts, most of the solutions to the Middle East do not lie in the battlefield. The vast majority of the work needed to counter the Arab disease of oppression, poverty, and blame lie in a more liberal direction. The "NeoCon" plan is solid until we have to deal with the culture. This is where it is and has always been full of holes. It is the culture that we must focus on. Killing terrorists and removing dictators is only immediate. This is where we need a Democratic Party that can offer solutions and alternatives instead of constant criticisms and underminings.

However, like I have said...the Middle East defies solution. We are stumbling in the dark with very few alternatives to our current and immediate reaction following 9/11. There are options that would greatly enavble us to "combat" this problem through other than military means, but it is doubtful this administration will embark upon them and it is doubtful the next President will have the insight.

Jeez you almost sound logical. I concur.