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What happened to Christians?

That's your opinion. I'm giving examples on the belief that the Scriptures is God-inspired. Anyway, Joshua isn't the only example why I can say with confidence that God/Jesus is not opposed to violence. You should scroll back a bit and read my other posts.

Most of what you cited deals with the cherem,like Deut20

As for quoting God, I think the more likely answer is that humans were speaking for God. The Bible is the "Word of God", but it is also the Word of Humans -- it was written,edited, redacted, copied, translated and compiled by humans over a period of around 1000 years. The cherem in particular was a Canaanite custom practiced by Israelites and other Canaanite tribes (The Israelites themselves,despite their sometimes too-loud-to-the-contrary assertions, were part of the same Canaanite culture).
 
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Yeah, I don't care one lick about the bible, I consider most of it bull****. That's why I linked to Jefferson's bible. Which only contains the philosophy of Jesus. That's the only good thing in the bible to be honest. The only good thing. And it is the philosophy of a pacifist.

Whatever the Catholics added in for political purposes, and to justify how they converted most of Europe by sword, is the bull**** I was talking about in my op that Jefferson leaves out.

Read the link from the OP. What his philosophy is like, without the bull****.

Jesus was a man, a very wise man, but still just a man. His words should be considered, they should be contemplated, but they shouldn't be worshiped.
 
https://www.beliefnet.com/resourcel...he_Life__Morals_of_Jesus_of_N azareth_2.html

Looks like Trump supporters are doing a good deed and getting all kinds of refugees into heaven.

What I like about the Jefferson Bible, it cuts out all the bull****. Here's what Jesus said and did, everything else is pointless.

Especially, for those that consider the man god.



I've always been fascinated by how much Jesus' teachings resemble Buddhism. So much so that they consider him a Bodhisattva.

I also wonder quite often, how those that follow him, and invoke his name, have gotten so far away from his teachings. A Christian nation should be a nation of pacifists. Not the most warlike nation in human history.

A Christian people should be a beloved people, not a despised people.

It's time for some soul searching.


They won't search their souls. Christians are not very self-Aware. They are too busy judging others.
 
Most of what you cited deals with the cherem,like Deut20

Never mind what others deal with. Whether it's cherem or not.....that's not the point!

The point is what's been written!


BIBLICAL Prophets had quoted God!

If you're saying prophets had lied - because that's the only conclusion here - then, which part of the Bible
is credible? Can you tell?

Why do we believe in God at all?
 
You're the one cherry-picking! :lol: You've given the Beatitudes - and sorta trying to take them out of context. Yeah....read them again:

He said:


Matthew 5
3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.



What do they all start with??? BLESSED!

The Beaitudes are declarations of blessedness! It refers to SPIRITUAL well-being and SPIRITUAL propserity!

Where does it say that Jesus is a pacifist?



The Scriptures speak for itself.

All the verses I'd given support one another, in showing that Jesus can't be a pacifist, or someone who's opposed to violence.




https://www.gotquestions.org/karma.html


PS

I don't believe in the Hindu or Buddhist concept of karma.
I don't make a cocktail out of religions.

No you are definitely the cherry picker, Jesus was at the time being persecuted, he was warning his disciples directly, they are going to come at you for following me. Submit to what is legal, turn the other cheek, forgive them. He didn't say, rise up, take up arms, lead a rebellion against Rome. Even though half of Rome fell in part to a cult of pacifists that gained in popularity and refused to be conscripted into Rome's army. No army, no tribute.

Taking his specific warnings to those in immediate danger, and confusing it with his philosophical teachings and then seeking meaning in those specific warnings to justify you're own interpretation is the entire point of the parable I quoted.

You are skipping over the important parts, to find the part that can be twisted to mean anything you want 2000 years later, taken out of the political context at that time. Which is why organized religion is dangerous. And why I'm opposed to it in all it's forms.
 
Yeah, I don't care one lick about the bible, I consider most of it bull****. That's why I linked to Jefferson's bible. Which only contains the philosophy of Jesus. That's the only good thing in the bible to be honest. The only good thing. And it is the philosophy of a pacifist


Well....you should've made your topic's title clear.
You should've pointed out that you're only referring to Christians who rely on the Jefferson's Bible.

lol. I saw your title - even read your OP. So I blasted away using the Scriptures! You sucked me in.
Now that I've shown you how wrong you are....... Now you tell me....:lol:
 
We never get any of those sort of Christians here.

Case in point....

You should study the Bible, if you're that interested.



You say a Christian nation would be a nation of pacifist? Hah!


Matthew 10

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—


36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.



Read a little bit farther down:



40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.
41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.

42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”
 
No you are definitely the cherry picker, Jesus was at the time being persecuted, he was warning his disciples directly, they are going to come at you for following me. Submit to what is legal, turn the other cheek, forgive them. He didn't say, rise up, take up arms, lead a rebellion against Rome. Even though half of Rome fell in part to a cult of pacifists that gained in popularity and refused to be conscripted into Rome's army. No army, no tribute.

Taking his specific warnings to those in immediate danger, and confusing it with his philosophical teachings and then seeking meaning in those specific warnings to justify you're own interpretation is the entire point of the parable I quoted.

You are skipping over the important parts, to find the part that can be twisted to mean anything you want 2000 years later, taken out of the political context at that time. Which is why organized religion is dangerous. And why I'm opposed to it in all it's forms.


What particular verse(s) are those which parts have I skipped? Please cite.


Jefferson's Bible - that President cut and pasted portions of the Bible.
That president must've been the inspiration for cut-and-paste.


The Thomas Jefferson Bible, also known as the Jefferson Bible, and officially titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, is a work of Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States. Jefferson finished his “Bible” in approximately 1819. It is not actually a complete Bible but an attempt at a harmony of the Gospels, with much of the content of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John literally cut and pasted in the order Thomas Jefferson thought best.

The most interesting, and disappointing, aspect of the Thomas Jefferson Bible is the fact that, as a naturalist, Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the supernatural.


He therefore removed virtually all the miraculous events recorded in the Gospels. While some references to angels, heaven, hell, and a future eternal life remain, the accounts of Jesus’ miracles, allusions to the deity of Christ, and the story of Jesus’ resurrection are absent.

The problem is that Jesus’ miracles and His teachings worked together. Acts 2:22 declares, “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.” The miracles attested to the truth of Jesus’ teachings. The wonders and signs demonstrated that Jesus was far more than a great moral and philosophical teacher.

In the Thomas Jefferson Bible, Thomas Jefferson made the precise mistake that C. S. Lewis warned of about 150 years later:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Thomas-Jefferson-Bible.html


:lamo


That explains it! No wonder you only want to hear from those who agree with the Jefferson's Bible!

You don't want Christians' views!

You want the opinion of atheists! And, NON-Christians! :mrgreen:
 
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Never mind what others deal with. Whether it's cherem or not.....that's not the point!

The point is what's been written!


BIBLICAL Prophets had quoted God!

If you're saying prophets had lied - because that's the only conclusion here - then, which part of the Bible
is credible? Can you tell?

Why do we believe in God at all?

And the prophets were HUMANS. The Bible is the "Word of God", but it is also the "Word of Humans"-- written,edited,copied, translated, redacted and compiled by humans over a period of around 1000 years. Prophets then are like "prophets" today -- often wild-eyed crazy people who didn't always get it right. Huldah prophesied Josiah would die a peaceful death (he didn't). Ezekiel prophesied Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar (it wasn't). That's why in Judaism you see the prophetic tradition more or less dying off shortly after the Exile -- prophecy was considered dangerous and usually inaccurate.
 
Well....you should've made your topic's title clear.
You should've pointed out that you're only referring to Christians who rely on the Jefferson's Bible.

lol. I saw your title - even read your OP. So I blasted away using the Scriptures! You sucked me in.
Now that I've shown you how wrong you are....... Now you tell me....:lol:

I wasn't referring to Christians that rely on the Jefferson's bible, Jesus Christ you are not good at reading comprehension.

Which is I guess, the problem we are having.

And one I can't help you with.

So far you are the only one who has gotten confused. That should tell you something. Something about yourself.
 
And the prophets were HUMANS. The Bible is the "Word of God", but it is also the "Word of Humans"-- written,edited,copied, translated, redacted and compiled by humans over a period of around 1000 years. Prophets then are like "prophets" today -- often wild-eyed crazy people who didn't always get it right. Huldah prophesied Josiah would die a peaceful death (he didn't). Ezekiel prophesied Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar (it wasn't). That's why in Judaism you see the prophetic tradition more or less dying off shortly after the Exile -- prophecy was considered dangerous and usually inaccurate.

I know they're humans! But they're supposed to be God-inspired!

So - in your view, the Bible is not credible at all?
 
I wasn't referring to Christians that rely on the Jefferson's bible, Jesus Christ you are not good at reading comprehension.

Which is I guess, the problem we are having.

And one I can't help you with.

So far you are the only one who has gotten confused. That should tell you something. Something about yourself.

Here's what you said:


Yeah, I don't care one lick about the bible, I consider most of it bull****. That's why I linked to Jefferson's bible.


Jefferson was a naturalist. He doesn't believe in the supernatural. He is an atheist.

How do you expect a real disciple of Jesus to agree with him?


Furthermore - he simply just cherry-picked what he wanted - cut and pasted - and made himself his own book which he called his bible!



Which only contains the philosophy of Jesus. That's the only good thing in the bible to be honest. The only good thing. And it is the philosophy of a pacifist

I'm not surprised you'd find Him a pacifist relying on a chopped up version of the Bible.

You've been reading from........

...........
the Ultimate Book of Cherry Picks! :mrgreen:
 
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Here's what you said:





Jefferson was a naturalist. He doesn't believe in the supernatural. He is an atheist.

How do you expect a real disciple of Jesus to agree with him?

Because, the merit of the philosophy should stand on it's own. Whether you think it came from god, or a man. Especially if you think it comes from a god.

The bible adds a bunch of bull****, Jefferson's version cuts all that bull**** out. And doesn't include anything extra. Jesus' philosophy and nothing else. And it is by that philosophy his followers should live their lives. Not the bull**** other people have added in.

I've read the Torah, the Old Testament, and the Sumerian texts they are based on. Every version colored by the beliefs of the one who recorded it.

Jefferson spent his life studying all the versions and stories of the bible, in their original languages. And carefully crafted and translated a version of Jesus that is wholly Jesus. And not a council of cardinals, princes of Rome looking to control his followers. And not a King looking to justify Holy Wars.

If every Christian actually followed Christ's teachings, instead of cherry picking the bull**** out of the book they come in to justify their own morality, this world would be damn near perfect.

Whether you believed in god or not.
 
As with every other visible demographic these days, the assholes get the most press, and generalizing based on them is a sure way to not get the whole picture. All our "groups" are made up of some ratio of angels : assholes.

Your rebuke is well founded, just make sure you're aiming it at the right folks. Any time you get human being involved, there's bound to be a mess somewhere, and these are particularly messy times. There are Christians out there who have not forgotten (or worse, weaponized) Christ's message of love....you can usually pick them out, they're the ones that the Holy Rollers are pointing at as heretics or "fake Christians"...because we call them out, if quietly, on their nonsense.

hehe...a progressive Christian has few friends indeed... ;)

Here in the USA, I'd say it's high time to bring the noise. The ones that use your religion as a weapon have a lot of money, political power and media to spew their venom. They are giving the rest of you a bad name. It's not good for the brand, I don't think. The falling numbers of believers in the last 2 generations bear that idea out.

:peace to you...
 
:lol:

Why do you have to ask?

Believable? Trustworthy? Reliable?

If you mean historically "credible", yes around the year 800 BC or so it becomes roughly historical.Prior to that, it's accuracy is a little shaky.

If you mean theologically, I think we need to apply the criterion of Matthew 7:16-20. What is the "fruit" of the given theology? I think it's safe to say a theology preaching genocide is not "good fruit", and hence not from God.
 
Here in the USA, I'd say it's high time to bring the noise. The ones that use your religion as a weapon have a lot of money, political power and media to spew their venom. They are giving the rest of you a bad name. It's not good for the brand, I don't think. The falling numbers of believers in the last 2 generations bear that idea out.

:peace to you...

And to you too.

I’m not worried about the “brand” or about others giving me a bad name. This is beyond my control, and what matters to me is doing my best to live my life the way I am called to live it. “Timbers” in my own eyes, light unto the gentiles, and so on.

But I don’t happen to know any practicing Christians who are spewing venom. I don’t know anybody personally who fits the stereotype you present here, anyone at all who uses religion as a weapon. Who are these people?
 
Because, the merit of the philosophy should stand on it's own. Whether you think it came from god, or a man. Especially if you think it comes from a god.

The bible adds a bunch of bull****, Jefferson's version cuts all that bull**** out. And doesn't include anything extra. Jesus' philosophy and nothing else. And it is by that philosophy his followers should live their lives. Not the bull**** other people have added in.

I've read the Torah, the Old Testament, and the Sumerian texts they are based on. Every version colored by the beliefs of the one who recorded it.

Jefferson spent his life studying all the versions and stories of the bible, in their original languages. And carefully crafted and translated a version of Jesus that is wholly Jesus. And not a council of cardinals, princes of Rome looking to control his followers. And not a King looking to justify Holy Wars.

If every Christian actually followed Christ's teachings, instead of cherry picking the bull**** out of the book they come in to justify their own morality, this world would be damn near perfect.

Whether you believed in god or not.

Exactly...the world would be without wars, prejudice, hatred, greed...there would be no need for locks or keys...how many Christians do you see actually practicing what they preach? Very few in comparison to the world's population...I do know of 8,457,107 in 240 lands​ who do...
 
And to you too.

I’m not worried about the “brand” or about others giving me a bad name. This is beyond my control, and what matters to me is doing my best to live my life the way I am called to live it. “Timbers” in my own eyes, light unto the gentiles, and so on.

But I don’t happen to know any practicing Christians who are spewing venom. I don’t know anybody personally who fits the stereotype you present here, anyone at all who uses religion as a weapon. Who are these people?

There are several on DP. You know I can't call them out without violating DP rules and my own sense of ethics. I have no reservation about confronting them personally if I'm drawn into it, however (within forum rule constraints, of course).

Here are a few who popped into my head. They have many, many followers, and there are literally hundreds, probably thousands of preachers like this:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/13/politics/hagee-jeffress-us-embassy-jerusalem/index.html

Controversial US pastors take part in Jerusalem embassy opening

Hagee, whose group is dedicated to organizing pro-Israel Christians in the United States into a unified voice, has had relationships with Israeli prime ministers dating back years. But he came under the national political spotlight in 2008 for comments that prompted then-Republican presidential candidate John McCain to reject his endorsement.
During the campaign, audio from one of Hagee's sermons in the 1990s was leaked that seemed to suggest that Adolf Hitler had been fulfilling God's will by aiding the desire of Jews to return to Israel in accordance with biblical prophecy.
"God says in Jeremiah 16: 'Behold, I will bring them the Jewish people again unto their land that I gave to their fathers. ... Behold, I will send for many fishers, and after will I send for many hunters,'" Hagee said, according to a transcript of his sermon. "'And they the hunters shall hunt them.' That would be the Jews. ... Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter."
In a statement at the time, McCain said, "Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Rev. Hagee's endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well."

Some might remember Jeffress for his frequent condemnations of Mormonism as a "cult" during the 2012 presidential campaign and his urging of Christians not to vote for Mitt Romney, a Mormon, during the Republican primary.
But Jeffress has also called Islam and Mormonism heresies "from the pit of hell," suggested that the Catholic Church was led astray by Satan, accused then-President Barack Obama of "paving the way" for the Antichrist and spread false statistics about the prevalence of HIV among gays, who he said live a "miserable" and "filthy" lifestyle.
In recent years, Jeffress has frequently denounced Islam, calling it an "evil religion" that "promotes pedophilia" because the Prophet Mohammed married a 9-year-old girl. (Many modern Muslim scholars disagree about her age.) The pastor has also said that Mormons, Muslims and Hindus "worship a false god."
Late Sunday evening, Romney tweeted that Jeffress is "a bigot" and shouldn't "be giving the prayer that opens up" the embassy.

The Trump/Pence (Pence is a born-again) admin. picked them to do this. They were sending a message, which I got. There followers also got it.

Of course I have friends and relatives who are Christians, and to my knowledge they are more like Nate than these clowns.
 
Here in the USA, I'd say it's high time to bring the noise. The ones that use your religion as a weapon have a lot of money, political power and media to spew their venom. They are giving the rest of you a bad name. It's not good for the brand, I don't think. The falling numbers of believers in the last 2 generations bear that idea out.

:peace to you...

hehe...well, if you have seen some of my spicier debates on here with fellow believers, I doubt you'd have a problem with the volume...hehe... Christ was a lot of things, and the type of guy to throw profiteering douchebags out of the temple and calling the stick up the ass pharisees an evil brood of vipers was among them...lol...combine that with the fact that he preferred the company of sailors and prostitutes, and I find myself more than able to follow Christ's example from time to time...hehe

But he was a smart guy...he also advocated for a gentler approach, perhaps a slower and more methodical approach, as changing the world with love tends to take longer than with a sword. And he was right to. I'm not sure what ever happened to the merchants, but he never got clear of the Pharisees, despite the fact that he gave them a proper fiery intellectual ass whooping on more than one occasion.

I'm not overly concerned with the Church's "brand". It has faced worse challenges in its history, and here we are, 2000 years later, getting ready for Christmas. :) There will be a Church as long as there is God. If something as unavoidable as our humanity, for all the good and bad that entails, could bring down a deity, especially when we believe that same humanity was by their design and intent, then what kind of deity do we serve? I would suggest that rather than being just one more angry, out of control Christian asshole for our critics to point and laugh at, my advocacy for societal change in general, directionally aligned with the basic message of "love thy neighbor" that is at the core of what we Christians are called to live, is more valuable in the long run. Certainly there are plenty of critics of Christianity who are more than capable of delivering any required ass whoopings in our stead...hehe...

There are certainly folks calling themselves Christians, weaponizing a complicated and problematic religious text for personal gain. But they are part of a bigger problem, a sub demographic of a group of people who are seeking personal gain by whatever means are available to them. Perhaps the better approach is for people who are against that to work together, irrespective of motivation or classification or religious affiliation. Atheists and believers will never agree or understand each other. But maybe a bunch of people that believe we can do better to become a more humane, sustainable society can work together to make that happen. Maybe for that to happen we need to actually turn the volume down a notch, and figure it out. The yelling doesn't seem to be working. As fun as it is in an anonymous debate forum... ;)

Peace to you too, bud.
 
hehe...well, if you have seen some of my spicier debates on here with fellow believers, I doubt you'd have a problem with the volume...hehe... Christ was a lot of things, and the type of guy to throw profiteering douchebags out of the temple and calling the stick up the ass pharisees an evil brood of vipers was among them...lol...combine that with the fact that he preferred the company of sailors and prostitutes, and I find myself more than able to follow Christ's example from time to time...hehe

But he was a smart guy...he also advocated for a gentler approach, perhaps a slower and more methodical approach, as changing the world with love tends to take longer than with a sword. And he was right to. I'm not sure what ever happened to the merchants, but he never got clear of the Pharisees, despite the fact that he gave them a proper fiery intellectual ass whooping on more than one occasion.

I'm not overly concerned with the Church's "brand". It has faced worse challenges in its history, and here we are, 2000 years later, getting ready for Christmas. :) There will be a Church as long as there is God. If something as unavoidable as our humanity, for all the good and bad that entails, could bring down a deity, especially when we believe that same humanity was by their design and intent, then what kind of deity do we serve? I would suggest that rather than being just one more angry, out of control Christian asshole for our critics to point and laugh at, my advocacy for societal change in general, directionally aligned with the basic message of "love thy neighbor" that is at the core of what we Christians are called to live, is more valuable in the long run. Certainly there are plenty of critics of Christianity who are more than capable of delivering any required ass whoopings in our stead...hehe...

There are certainly folks calling themselves Christians, weaponizing a complicated and problematic religious text for personal gain. But they are part of a bigger problem, a sub demographic of a group of people who are seeking personal gain by whatever means are available to them. Perhaps the better approach is for people who are against that to work together, irrespective of motivation or classification or religious affiliation. Atheists and believers will never agree or understand each other. But maybe a bunch of people that believe we can do better to become a more humane, sustainable society can work together to make that happen. Maybe for that to happen we need to actually turn the volume down a notch, and figure it out. The yelling doesn't seem to be working. As fun as it is in an anonymous debate forum... ;)

Peace to you too, bud.

You follow your path as it is shown to you. I can't fault your choices as to tone or which forks in the road you take; I was wrong to insinuate otherwise. In my defense, my country is a bit psycho at the moment and that probably causes a bit of inappropriate "lashing out". Sorry, and again,:peace
 
There are several on DP. You know I can't call them out without violating DP rules and my own sense of ethics. I have no reservation about confronting them personally if I'm drawn into it, however (within forum rule constraints, of course).

Here are a few who popped into my head. They have many, many followers, and there are literally hundreds, probably thousands of preachers like this:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/13/politics/hagee-jeffress-us-embassy-jerusalem/index.html







The Trump/Pence (Pence is a born-again) admin. picked them to do this. They were sending a message, which I got. There followers also got it.

Of course I have friends and relatives who are Christians, and to my knowledge they are more like Nate than these clowns.

So you don't actually know any Christians who act this way; you only know about controversial pastors that we read about. The thing is that there are many, many more pastors of every denomination about whom we know nothing--because they're going about their pastoral business just as their millions of congregants are without making the news.

No, you don't want to call out other DP members. Remembering that there are exceptions that "prove the rule" and that the anonymity of the cyber-environment inspires some to act out is important too.
 
So you don't actually know any Christians who act this way; you only know about controversial pastors that we read about. The thing is that there are many, many more pastors of every denomination about whom we know nothing--because they're going about their pastoral business just as their millions of congregants are without making the news.

No, you don't want to call out other DP members. Remembering that there are exceptions that "prove the rule" and that the anonymity of the cyber-environment inspires some to act out is important too.
All we need to do is look at voting patterns of white Christians to know they are exactly what Alt said they are, NB.
 
So you don't actually know any Christians who act this way; you only know about controversial pastors that we read about. The thing is that there are many, many more pastors of every denomination about whom we know nothing--because they're going about their pastoral business just as their millions of congregants are without making the news.

People with big media networks and political clout have more impact than individuals I know or the average small church pastor going about his/her duties. I know what these people think because they own radio and TV stations - they aren't shy.

Individuals you or I know only qualify as anecdotes. I have friends who's youngest daughter went to work for one of those groups in Colorado Springs.

https://www.alternet.org/story/150809/the_12_worst_(and_most_powerful)_christian_right_groups

No, you don't want to call out other DP members. Remembering that there are exceptions that "prove the rule" and that the anonymity of the cyber-environment inspires some to act out is important too.

Agreed. They are here if you look around...
 
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