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What global warming?

Deuce

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If the company gains a larger benefit from running at whatever capacity they need in order to meet market demands, the financial incentive is a moot point, unless the price of carbon credits becomes so cost ineffective that they are forced to scale back output, thereby paying financially in lost profits.

How's your free market looking now?

The word "if" at the beginning of your post should tell you all that you need to know. If you think industry will simply not react and just eat the cost, I don't know what to tell you. A company with an inefficient operation (carbon-wise) will have a higher cost of operating than an efficient one, and this will likely be passed on in the price of their product or service. This makes them less competititve and will reduce the market's demand for their product. Conversely, an efficient company will have a lower operating cost and probably be able to offer a lower priced product, thereby getting a larger market share or demand.

It's best not to look at these things narrowly, because you almost always end up missing something. Financial pressure to reduce emissions will result in reduced emissions, that's just how the market works. What remains to be seen is how fast and how much. Like I said before, carbon trading just creates some competitive pressure but doesn't fundamentally change the way we operate.
 

Orion

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This is a myth perpetuated by the Gore crowd. Government already has every recourse against companies that are causing damage to the environment as a result of their operations.

The Gore crowd? People like me were learning about climate change before "An Inconvenient Truth" was a gleam in America's eye, and before it even became politically polarized. It's getting old and frankly it's just a tired bait tactic of those who lack real arguments. Argue facts with facts and cut out the ad homs, and maybe I'd be more willing to listen to what you have to say; because right now, I am growing rapidly disinterested.

But by all means, continue to marginalize modern science as "the Gore crowd".
 

theangryamerican

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The Gore crowd? People like me were learning about climate change before "An Inconvenient Truth" was a gleam in America's eye, and before it even became politically polarized. It's getting old and frankly it's just a tired bait tactic of those who lack real arguments. Argue facts with facts and cut out the ad homs, and maybe I'd be more willing to listen to what you have to say; because right now, I am growing rapidly disinterested.

But by all means, continue to marginalize modern science as "the Gore crowd".

Talk about marginalization, you completely ignored the actual point of my post and latched on to the "Gore crowd" comment like a rabid hyena. I'll say it again. Government already has EVERY recourse against companies damaging the environment.

Carbon Credits are simply a feel-good bandaid that fails to actually address a perceived prblem.
 

Orion

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Talk about marginalization, you completely ignored the actual point of my post and latched on to the "Gore crowd" comment like a rabid hyena.

Then don't make stupid, hyperbolic remarks that overshadow the rest of your post, and maybe you will not find yourself marginalized for said stupidity.

I'll say it again. Government already has EVERY recourse against companies damaging the environment.

One of which is taxation. They can't simply shut down corporations because that is lost economy. They can provide negative incentives for companies to reduce pollution or switch to better measures. I'm not convinced it's fully effective but at least it's an effort, as opposed to doing nothing whatsoever. I'm personally in favor of steep fines and government alotted deadlines, but government is so reluctant to regulate business.

Carbon Credits are simply a feel-good bandaid that fails to actually address a perceived prblem.

I don't think so. In Europe the carbon credit system is successful because the government actually uses the money to invest in environmentally-friendly projects and green energy developments. Like I said, it only produces results if the money is being allocated to the relevant causes. Carbon taxation works if there is a willingness to carry it out effectively.
 

theangryamerican

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Then don't make stupid, hyperbolic remarks that overshadow the rest of your post, and maybe you will not find yourself marginalized for said stupidity.



One of which is taxation. They can't simply shut down corporations because that is lost economy. They can provide negative incentives for companies to reduce pollution or switch to better measures. I'm not convinced it's fully effective but at least it's an effort, as opposed to doing nothing whatsoever. I'm personally in favor of steep fines and government alotted deadlines, but government is so reluctant to regulate business.



I don't think so. In Europe the carbon credit system is successful because the government actually uses the money to invest in environmentally-friendly projects and green energy developments. Like I said, it only produces results if the money is being allocated to the relevant causes. Carbon taxation works if there is a willingness to carry it out effectively.


Taxation is only one minor part of government recourse. Government already has the ability to levy heavy fines and imposed cleanup costs on any irresponsible companies causing damage to the environment.
 

Orion

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Taxation is only one minor part of government recourse. Government already has the ability to levy heavy fines and imposed cleanup costs on any irresponsible companies causing damage to the environment.

In the U.S., heavy fines would drive companies overseas and would encourage even more outsourcing than is already happening; or at least, that has been the justification I have heard for not levying heavy fines. Taxation is an annoyance that companies will want to take action on, but it's not enough to drive them away. My personal view though is that taxation is not enough. It doesn't really stop the bad behaviors. Also, companies that make tens of billions of dollars annually don't care about paying piddly taxes.

My inclination is just to fine them heavily, but like I said, the U.S. is all about business and business comes first. It's all very myopic. Another good thing the government could do is encourage more competition and supplement the introduction of the green energy sector, along with vehicles. The fossil fuel companies have been doing everything in their power to stop green energy innovations and advancements. It's why places like Europe and even China are starting to roll out green technologies that are placing their economies on stable ground for the future. The U.S. will keep pushing these technologies away for business and political reasons, but it will only be a detriment in the long run.
 

Middleground

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Plants love carbon dioxide. Bring it on. If it causes global warming all the better. Growing seasons will be longer and we'll be able to grow food in places we never could before.
We could put a stop to anyone ever going hungry again. GW alarmists must hate people to want to put a stop to a good thing like that.;)

You do realize that climate change will have the opposite effect, right? A mere 2C warming could instigate many serious problems in many parts of the world. In fact, climate change has already creeped up in some parts of southern US, particularly California, Nevada, Arizona ans New Mexico.
 

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Please bring real sources to debates, wikipedia is not a source.

I'll pose the question to you too: How does the sale of carbon credits better the environment?

I'll wait while you think it over.

What are you denying? That Gore didn't keep a dime from his movie and Nobel Peace prize? That he's been involved in environmentalism since 1976? What don't you believe?
 

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I don't believe man is capable of causing Global Warming. Consider me in rebellion from having it shoved down my throat all through the 90s. The Bible says the earth will be destroyed by fire, so maybe it's getting time for that to happen, but I know that when a country gets away from God, one of the first things it does is to start worshipping the creation rather than the Creator, and it looks like that is what might be going on. It just sounds to me like they are saying God's not in control and can't handle it, which I don't believe. Whatever's going on, He's got it under control. I also don't think it's right for teachers to traumatize 4th graders by telling them oil is going to be gone in 30 years or that no one will be able to go outside in 10 years because the sun will burn them through the Ozone (Which thank godness was a lie). You just don't do that, it's not your place and the children can't do anything about that. It's up to the parents to take care of stuff like that.

are you a creationist?
 

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Deuce, Thank you for explaining that, I appreciate it. :) I've always heard this about pollution and carbon dioxide and saving the planet by recycling and Ozone and sunburns and staying inside and no more oil, but I couldn't make logical sense of it, but you explained it very well so at least it makes actual physical sense now. :) I still don't know if it's true or not, but now I have a little better idea of the scientists' view.
 
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Southern Belle

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are you a creationist?

Well, I do believe that God created the world just like Genesis says He did, so yes, I guess so. :) I think his design is beautiful and He did a great job with nature.
 

theangryamerican

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What are you denying? That Gore didn't keep a dime from his movie and Nobel Peace prize? That he's been involved in environmentalism since 1976? What don't you believe?

Oh, I'm not denying that he is professing to be a die hard environmentalist. Are you claiming that he has no vested stake in ensuring that this GW frenzy keeps rolling as long as possible?
 

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Oh, I'm not denying that he is professing to be a die hard environmentalist. Are you claiming that he has no vested stake in ensuring that this GW frenzy keeps rolling as long as possible?

You make it sound like he's solely in it for the money. I don't think it to be the case, even though I am sure he's profited from it. You're okay with capitalism, aren't you?
 

Deuce

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Deuce, Thank you for explaining that, I appreciate it. :) I've always heard this about pollution and carbon dioxide and saving the planet by recycling and Ozone and sunburns and staying inside and no more oil, but I couldn't make logical sense of it, but you explained it very well so at least it makes actual physical sense now. :) I still don't know if it's true or not, but now I have a little better idea of the scientists' view.

Any time!
As for whether or not it's true, the fact that it's happening is pretty well settled at this point. The link between CO2 and infrared radiation has been known for more than a century. I think it was like the 1870's when it was first discovered! The properties of various atmospheric gases were explored in far greater detail in the 1950's when the Air Force was working on heat-seeking missiles.

CO2 definitely absorbs some of the outgoing radiation, and mankind definitely adds CO2 to the atmosphere, so the real question is how much warming we're causing, not whether we're causing any. It's hypothetically possible that all of the measurements and experiments are wrong and that it's really not a big deal, but there's mountains of data supporting the idea that the vast majority of the current warming trend is from increasing greenhouse gases. We measure the incoming energy and the outgoing energy, and the math just works out that way. It's also possible there's some other mechanism driving the current temperature change, but that would leave the question of where the heck all this energy is going that CO2 picks up, and why haven't we detected this other mechanism before.

edit: There are still people who proclaim the earth isn't actually getting warmer. Those people are pants-on-head crazy.
 
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theangryamerican

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You make it sound like he's solely in it for the money. I don't think it to be the case, even though I am sure he's profited from it. You're okay with capitalism, aren't you?

Are you okay with Ponzi schemes or Nigerian email scammers? :2razz:

You're entitled to your opinion and I apologize for not clarifying mine. I'm sure that deep down Al Gore may believe he is the savior of the world, but too much of what he says just reeks of snake oil. I'm prefectly okay with the concept of capitalism, but not so much with what I see as conning the uninformed into giving up their money. ;)
 
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Deuce

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Are you okay with Ponzi schemes or Nigerian email scammers? :2razz:

You're entitled to your opinion and I apologize for not clarifying mine. I'm sure that deep down Al Gore may believe he is the savior of the world, but too much of what he says just reeks of snake oil. I'm prefectly okay with the concept of capitalism, but not so much with what I see as conning the uninformed into giving up their money. ;)

Not a very good analogy as there are obvious benefits to reducing fossil fuel consumption even if you completely disbelieve the science behind AGW.
 

theangryamerican

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Not a very good analogy as there are obvious benefits to reducing fossil fuel consumption even if you completely disbelieve the science behind AGW.

Sure there are, however, this should be dictated by the free market, not the government.
 

Deuce

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Sure there are, however, this should be dictated by the free market, not the government.

If we allow the free market to change of its own accord, we're going to end up replacing foreign oil with foreign solar panels and wind turbines, because we'll be way behind the curve when it comes to technology and market share. Most other industrialized nations, and even China and India, are ramping up renewables faster than we are. They see the writing on the wall, but our short-sighted individualist mentality is slowing us down here.

Cap and trade is a way to get the free market to work on emissions reductions through competition. It gives a financial advantage to companies that can be more efficient, emissions-wise. Striving for that competitive edge, businesses will do the job that needs doing. If you call that "dictating," well, then I guess it's dictating. It's in our long-term best interests. We should be the ones building and exporting the best solar panels, wind turbines, and advanced batteries in the world, not buying them from China and Japan!
 

theangryamerican

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If we allow the free market to change of its own accord, we're going to end up replacing foreign oil with foreign solar panels and wind turbines, because we'll be way behind the curve when it comes to technology and market share. Most other industrialized nations, and even China and India, are ramping up renewables faster than we are. They see the writing on the wall, but our short-sighted individualist mentality is slowing us down here.

Cap and trade is a way to get the free market to work on emissions reductions through competition. It gives a financial advantage to companies that can be more efficient, emissions-wise. Striving for that competitive edge, businesses will do the job that needs doing. If you call that "dictating," well, then I guess it's dictating. It's in our long-term best interests. We should be the ones building and exporting the best solar panels, wind turbines, and advanced batteries in the world, not buying them from China and Japan!

The best ranked solar panels on the market today are American made.
SunPower Tops List of Best Solar Panel Manufacturers · Environmental Leader · Green Business, Sustainable Business, and Green Strategy News for Corporate Sustainability Executives

There's already more than 16000 manufacturers of industrial wind turbines in the United States.
Large Wind Turbine Manufacturers in the United States

The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid is the 2010 North American Car of the Year.
Best Hybrid Cars - Best Cars & Trucks - U.S. News Rankings and Reviews

Free market is doing just fine without cap and trade, contrary to what the government wants you to believe.
 
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Middleground

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Are you okay with Ponzi schemes or Nigerian email scammers? :2razz:

It's amazing to me how much hatred Gore instigates. He is certainly not without critique, but a lot of it as been rabid/unfounded lies and exaggerations.The deniers certainly love to use him as fodder.

You're entitled to your opinion and I apologize for not clarifying mine. I'm sure that deep down Al Gore may believe he is the savior of the world, but too much of what he says just reeks of snake oil. I'm prefectly okay with the concept of capitalism, but not so much with what I see as conning the uninformed into giving up their money. ;)

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
 

Middleground

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Great contribution to the debate, Middle. :roll: Are you ever going to answer my questions at any point? :2razz:

Actually, I am going to add another point.

Technology-wise, we are so far behind, that it's impossible to live "normally" without having to use oil. It's part of our everyday life and unavoidable. We can take measures to cut down, and that is pretty much Al's message from what I gather. So until we as a society develop methods to live without oil (and oil derived products), the carbon credits are the best way to "nullify" usage. So basically, it's the best solution for our times. I certainly hope we can come up with better ways soon.
 

theangryamerican

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Hahahahha... sorry, I was a minute late. :2razz:

Bah. Then I retract my criticism.

It's amazing to me how much hatred Gore instigates. He is certainly not without critique, but a lot of it as been rabid/unfounded lies and exaggerations.The deniers certainly love to use him as fodder.

Frankly, I think he makes it too easy, painting such a large target on his back. You'd expect more from someone smart enough to invent the internet! :lol:
 
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