• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What does it matter who does the raiding?

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The relevant difference between CCA and a law enforcement agency is that, rather than serve the public good, CCA’s mandate is simply to produce profit for its shareholders – by incarcerating people. As a result of the Vista Grande High School raid, three students were arrested and may well end up in a CCA-run facility. CCA may then use a portion of the taxpayer money paid to incarcerate the former students to lobby for stricter sentencing laws, to fight legalization measures, or even to support legislation mandating greater funds for high school anti-drug enforcement.


http://www.theidealistrevolution.com/private-prison-company/

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whether a sweep like this is conducted by a private prison company or law enforcement officers makes no difference to me whatsoever -- I find such sweeps despicable in either case, and in either case the individuals conducting the sweep have a financial incentive to arrest as many people as the law allows.

Don't take the title too literally, because obviously we want whoever is conducting such a raid to have a clean criminal record, to be honest in their practices, and to be professional in their conduct. Additionally, I'm betting most of us can agree the military shouldn't be involved in such raids. I'm just wondering what's the difference between having a private firm with a financial incentive and a public institution with a financial incentive conduct these raids.[/FONT]
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
[/FONT]http://www.theidealistrevolution.com/private-prison-company/

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whether a sweep like this is conducted by a private prison company or law enforcement officers makes no difference to me whatsoever -- I find such sweeps despicable in either case, and in either case the individuals conducting the sweep have a financial incentive to arrest as many people as the law allows.

Don't take the title too literally, because obviously we want whoever is conducting such a raid to have a clean criminal record, to be honest in their practices, and to be professional in their conduct. Additionally, I'm betting most of us can agree the military shouldn't be involved in such raids. I'm just wondering what's the difference between having a private firm with a financial incentive and a public institution with a financial incentive conduct these raids.[/FONT]
This pisses me off beyond belief. I'm sure most people would think libertarians would support this, but I see it being directly against everything I believe. I believe the government has very few roles, but the biggest of them is the justice system. Outsourcing our justice system in any form is absolutely unacceptable. Prisons, LEO's, all of it need to be government run and owned.

Government law enforcement agencies should not be given more money based on how many people they imprison. There should be no incentive for them to lock up more people. They are paid a flat income to do their jobs.

Of all the things the government does, most of which it shouldn't, we choose to outsource the JUSTICE portion!??
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
If you could, please, I'd like you to set aside your feelings about outsourcing the functions of the justice system for just a moment. My question is, what's the difference between having a private contractor do the sweep and having law enforcement do the sweep when both of them have a significant financial incentive to arrest as many people as possible?
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If you could, please, I'd like you to set aside your feelings about outsourcing the functions of the justice system for just a moment. My question is, what's the difference between having a private contractor do the sweep and having law enforcement do the sweep when both of them have a significant financial incentive to arrest as many people as possible?
One of them is a public servant and the other is an employee, it's a completely different mentality and duty. We as a society hold public servants, or at least should, to a higher standard.

And as I stated in my original post, funding should not be doled out based on how many arrests a local LEO branch has. (Or to dumb it down, there should be no funding incentive)
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
One of them is a public servant and the other is an employee, it's a completely different mentality and duty. We as a society hold public servants, or at least should, to a higher standard.
So even if they're doing the same job for the same pay with the same authority and responsibility and financial incentive, they're different because ... of a feeling?
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So even if they're doing the same job for the same pay with the same authority and responsibility and financial incentive, they're different because ... of a feeling?
As a public servant you are held accountable to the people, as a contractor you are only accountable to your paycheck. This is no different than comparing an enlisted soldier to a contractor. The former has taken an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, and has shown on at least some level that he is willing to put the good of the nation above the needs of his own. The latter has done nothing of the sort.

Besides, it has to do with the power. Who is this random company that society has magically granted the power to arrest me? They are not an agent of the government, they are paid by the government. This is very distinct.
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
As a public servant you are held accountable to the people, as a contractor you are only accountable to your paycheck. This is no different than comparing an enlisted soldier to a contractor. The former has taken an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, and has shown on at least some level that he is willing to put the good of the nation above the needs of his own. The latter has done nothing of the sort.
I would argue that a public servant who has not been elected or appointed is just as accountable to the people as a private contractor -- both are employed, both are subject to public relations nightmares, and both are subject to the law.

The only consistent difference I am seeing by your own words is how we feel about them.

Is that true?
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I would argue that a public servant who has not been elected or appointed is just as accountable to the people as a private contractor -- both are employed, both are subject to public relations nightmares, and both are subject to the law.

The only consistent difference I am seeing by your own words is how we feel about them.

Is that true?
Police officers take an oath, and in doing so are granted special powers by the state. Some random civilian in a for-profit contracting agency does not, and should not have the power to overrule my constitutional rights. Only law enforcement officers can do this, and in only very specific situations.

You have said that you don't care either way, well that rather troubles me. If justice, upholding of the constitution, and protecting the citizens isn't the job of the government, what the f*** is their job? Why does government even exist?
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Police officers take an oath, and in doing so are granted special powers by the state. Some random civilian in a for-profit contracting agency does not, and should not have the power to overrule my constitutional rights. Only law enforcement officers can do this, and in only very specific situations.
So, if you make their authority and responsibility equal to that of law enforcement officers, then all you have left is an oath and perception.

You have said that you don't care either way, well that rather troubles me. If justice, upholding of the constitution, and protecting the citizens isn't the job of the government, what the f*** is their job? Why does government even exist?
I was pretty clear about why I don't care -- because I would've been bothered by the raid no matter who did it. In other words, bad behavior is bad no matter who we're talking about.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So, if you make their authority and responsibility equal to that of law enforcement officers, then all you have left is an oath and perception.



I was pretty clear about why I don't care -- because I would've been bothered by the raid no matter who did it. In other words, bad behavior is bad no matter who we're talking about.
*shrugs* Cool man. I guess you believe what you believe, but I find that horrifying. Why not outsource every function of the government so that nobody has anymore loyalty to anything but the dollar? Let's blur the lines between corporations and government so much that we won't be able to tell the difference.
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I asked an entirely reasonable question, I'm looking for an answer that is more concrete than feelings, and I think bad behavior is bad no matter who is doing it.

I can't imagine why you're horrified.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,511
Reaction score
50,110
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I would argue that a public servant who has not been elected or appointed is just as accountable to the people as a private contractor -- both are employed, both are subject to public relations nightmares, and both are subject to the law.

The only consistent difference I am seeing by your own words is how we feel about them.

Is that true?

As a former police officer, my duty and loyalty was to the public good. I took an oath to protect and serve and took it very seriously. My duty was not to produce revenue for the department, but to keep the peace and enforce the law... in that order.

Yes, it really is different.

Having said that I don't much like these raids either.
 

wolfman24

Demented Lycanthropist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
1,402
Location
East Waboo USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
As I have said many times the entire penal system is broken and needs to be redone from the ground up. Private prisons are a case in point
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,659
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
[/FONT]http://www.theidealistrevolution.com/private-prison-company/

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whether a sweep like this is conducted by a private prison company or law enforcement officers makes no difference to me whatsoever -- I find such sweeps despicable in either case, and in either case the individuals conducting the sweep have a financial incentive to arrest as many people as the law allows.

Don't take the title too literally, because obviously we want whoever is conducting such a raid to have a clean criminal record, to be honest in their practices, and to be professional in their conduct. Additionally, I'm betting most of us can agree the military shouldn't be involved in such raids. I'm just wondering what's the difference between having a private firm with a financial incentive and a public institution with a financial incentive conduct these raids.[/FONT]
If I had to pick one or the other, I think that LEOs should conduct sweeps. They have a higher level of training, know the law, and have no financial incentive to cross the line. The schools? Don't trust 'em. They lose a kid? They lose $10,000. Private companies would be my second choice; but I don't think they're as well trained in the law.

Most cops play fair.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
As a former police officer, my duty and loyalty was to the public good. I took an oath to protect and serve and took it very seriously. My duty was not to produce revenue for the department, but to keep the peace and enforce the law... in that order.

Yes, it really is different.

Having said that I don't much like these raids either.
Thank you! He seems to have zero grasp of the mentality differences between sworn-in public servants such as soldiers or LEO's, and contractors. Even if it didn't have any difference in quality and mentality on the part of the LEO's, it has to do with public opinion. Would anyone really like being chased down, handcuffed, and imprisoned by civilians?
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Thank you! He seems to have zero grasp of the mentality differences between sworn-in public servants such as soldiers or LEO's, and contractors. Even if it didn't have any difference in quality and mentality on the part of the LEO's, it has to do with public opinion. Would anyone really like being chased down, handcuffed, and imprisoned by civilians?
I have an acute grasp. I have reduced everything you said to the simple truth -- that the only difference involves feelings. If you can come up with something concrete, let me know.
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
As a former police officer, my duty and loyalty was to the public good. I took an oath to protect and serve and took it very seriously. My duty was not to produce revenue for the department, but to keep the peace and enforce the law... in that order.

Yes, it really is different.
Honestly, I think the difference has a lot more to do with who you are as a person than anything else.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I have an acute grasp. I have reduced everything you said to the simple truth -- that the only difference involves feelings. If you can come up with something concrete, let me know.
Then you've ignored half of what I've said. I've stated how LEO's take oaths and actually work for the government. Do you think most cops become cops because the pay will be good? Or do they do it because they generally want to help and protect people? They don' t get paid more the more people they arrest. THAT is the difference.
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Then you've ignored half of what I've said. I've stated how LEO's take oaths and actually work for the government. Do you think most cops become cops because the pay will be good? Or do they do it because they generally want to help and protect people? THAT is the difference.
No, I didn't ignore any of that. You're trying to say that who signs the checks and some rote vocalication makes a concrete difference. That still comes down to feelings.
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,659
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
That's easy enough to remedy.

Sure they do, and it happens every day.
No, it's really not easy enough to remedy. LEOs are held to a high standard. They have inter-department investigative agencies. LEO's have a high degree of investment in their jobs. They're well paid...have retirements to protect...the private sector cannot compete with their level of investment in their jobs.

Since it appears you have a rather low opinion of LEO's, I'm interested in the financial investment you think they would have in this instance. If I had to pick which I thought would be more professional? I'd pick LEOs over private security firms every time.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, I didn't ignore any of that. You're trying to say that who signs the checks and some rote vocalication makes a concrete difference. That still comes down to feelings.
So you never answered my question: Why don't we just get rid of the government altogether and hand out each of its roles to corporations? The taxpayers could pay them directly. According to you, there would be no difference other than "feelings".
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
No, it's really not easy enough to remedy. LEOs are held to a high standard. They have inter-department investigative agencies. LEO's have a high degree of investment in their jobs. They're well paid...have retirements to protect...the private sector cannot compete with their level of investment in their jobs.
You're acting as if these things could not be replicated in the private sector. I'm saying they can, and since they can they should not be a consideration in this discussion.

Since it appears you have a rather low opinion of LEO's, I'm interested in the financial investment you think they would have in this instance. If I had to pick which I thought would be more professional? I'd pick LEOs over private security firms every time.
I actually don't have a low opinion of police officers. I have several in my family. I'm just trying to discover if there are any concrete, non-emotional differences that make police officers a better resource to use in a sweep.

As for the financial incentive, the financial incentives for enforcement are fairly well-known and becoming more widely known every day. In both the case of police officers and private security there's no direct per-incident incentive I'm aware of -- such as a commission or a bonus -- but the department / firm's budget benefits, as does the career of the officer or professional in question, which translates to more power and a bigger paycheck.
 

TacticalEvilDan

Shankmasta Killa
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
10,443
Reaction score
4,479
Location
Western NY and Geneva, CH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
So you never answered my question: Why don't we just get rid of the government altogether and hand out each of its roles to corporations? The taxpayers could pay them directly. According to you, there would be no difference other than "feelings".
You're essentially trying to ask me the question I'm asking everyone else. The point of this thread was that I was asking the question, and I've yet to be told of any differences not tied to emotions.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,899
Reaction score
28,361
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You're essentially trying to ask me the question I'm asking everyone else. The point of this thread was that I was asking the question, and I've yet to be told of any differences not tied to emotions.
This is called "debate politics", not "answer my politics questions while I whine about your answers without providing any of my own". We've all addressed your topic, and you've provided zero responses other than whining about everything being based on "feelings." I'll ask you a third time:

Why don't we just get rid of the government altogether and hand out each of its roles to corporations?
Exxon could have the executive branch
Microsoft could have the judicial branch
Papa Johns could have the legislative branch

Or perhaps there might be a conflict of interest in handing out these positions to them?
 
Top Bottom