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What does a BF-109E that spent 80 years at bottom of a frozen lake look like?

Grandpappy

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Let me show you!


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This was the German aircraft that fought the Battle of Britain. The Kraut pilots called it an "Emil" for the BF-109E.
 
Der Messerschmitt(sp)? Er Fockewulf(sp)?

Nice looking design. Straight or vee engine? Must be supercharged. It looks solid, considering. Aluminum(?) doesn't corrode as much as ferrous metals, I guess.

When was it recovered?

Link?
 
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Der Messerschmitt(sp)? Er Fockewulf(sp)? Nice looking design. Straight or vee engine? Must be supercharged. It looks solid, considering. Aluminum(?) doesn't corrode as much as ferrous metals, I guess. When was it recovered? Link?

It had an upside down, fuel injected V-12 made by Diamler Benz. The crankshaft was drilled and rifled to fire a 20MM cannon shell through the center of it. Wild, huh?
 
It had an upside down, fuel injected V-12 made by Diamler Benz. The crankshaft was drilled and rifled to fire a 20MM cannon shell through the center of it. Wild, huh?

I'm having a hard time believing that.
 
I'm having a hard time believing that.
from Wiki

It was to be armed with either a single 20 mm MG C/30 engine-mounted cannon firing through the propeller hub as a Motorkanone, or two synchronized, engine cowl-mounted 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns, or one lightweight engine-mounted 20 mm MG FF cannon with two 7.92 mm MG 17s.[9] The MG C/30 was an airborne adaption of the 2 cm FlaK 30 anti-aircraft gun, which fired very powerful "Long Solothurn" ammunition, but was very heavy and had a low rate of fire

From the 109F-series onwards, guns were no longer carried inside the wings. Instead, the Bf 109F had a 20 mm gun firing through the propeller shaft. The change was disliked by leading fighter pilots such as Adolf Galland and Walter Oesau, but others such as Werner Mölders considered the single nose-mounted gun to compensate well for the loss of the two wing guns.[32]
 
from Wiki

It was to be armed with either a single 20 mm MG C/30 engine-mounted cannon firing through the propeller hub as a Motorkanone

I wonder if the propeller shaft went through the crankshaft; that it was actually the propeller shaft that took those forces.

How about the other questions?
 
I wonder if the propeller shaft went through the crankshaft; that it was actually the propeller shaft that took those forces.

How about the other questions?
I know not-I just remember the 20MM in the middle of the prop. I don't know if it involved a crankshaft-I am not particularly knowledgeable about such mechanics
 
I know not-I just remember the 20MM in the middle of the prop. I don't know if it involved a crankshaft-I am not particularly knowledgeable about such mechanics

The Wikipedia page says this:

An alternative arrangement was also designed, consisting of a single autocannon firing through a blast tube between the cylinder banks of the engine, known as a Motorkanone mount in German.
----

I learned why they had an inverted engine: To be much better protected from damage from below (ground fire).

I believe Indian Motocycle (no 'r') and maybe Henderson had an inverted four-cylinder engine.
 
Where was it? When was it discovered? When was it pulled out? We're remains in it? Who was the pilot? Where is it, now? Etc?
 
I wonder if the propeller shaft went through the crankshaft; that it was actually the propeller shaft that took those forces.

How about the other questions?
The prop was gear driven. The cannon fired through the prop shaft, not the crankshaft.
 
The prop was gear driven. The cannon fired through the prop shaft, not the crankshaft.
This rig has always fascinated me. The link seems to show that the 20mm cannon was situated behind the engine. There must have been a stationary ‘barrel’ through the crankshaft. These fighters, along with their Allied counterparts could only carry so much ammunition. 20 mm shells are heavy and bulky. The room in the cockpit suggests that the pilot ‘wore’ the airplane.

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On a tangent; Field Marshall Goering is once said to have asked of the General of the Fighters, Adolf Galland, if there was anything the general needed to better press the air war to the Allies. Galland is said to have replied, “ send me a squadron of Spitfires.”

Edit: 1) 20mm equals approx. 3/4 “, that’s a fairly stout hole through the bulkiest part of the IC engine. (2) Looking more closely at the diagram, I have to agree with Antiwar in that the 20mm cannon is situated below where the crankshaft would be in an inverted mounted V-12.

There is some debate as to the meaning of the quote. Later in his book, Galland states that he was pleased with the capabilities of the 109 vs the Spitfire and was trying to tweak, the Luftwaffe chief.
 
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This rig has always fascinated me. The link seems to show that the 20mm cannon was situated behind the engine. There must have been a stationary ‘barrel’ through the crankshaft. These figers, along with their Allied counterparts could only carry so much ammunition. 20 mm shells are heavy and bulky. The room in the cockpit suggests that the pilot ‘wore’ the airplane.

View attachment 67384121

On a tangent; Field Marshall Goering is once said to have asked of the General of the Fighters, Adolf Galland, if there was anything the general needed to better press the air war to the Allies. Galland is said to have replied, “ send me a squadron of Spitfires.”

Edit: 1) 20mm equals approx. 3/4 “, that’s a fairly stout hole through the bulkiest part of the IC engine. (2) Looking more closely at the diagram, I have to agree with Antiwar in that the 20mm cannon is situated below where the crankshaft would be in an inverted mounted V-12.

There is some debate as to the meaning of the quote. Later in his book, Galland states that he was pleased with the capabilities of the 109 vs the Spitfire and was trying to tweak, the Luftwaffe chief.

Yep, the gun mounts between the cylinder banks and fires through the prop shaft, which is not mounted on the crank. The prop is gear driven from the crank, and it's shaft is below the centerline of the crank.

The piston rods attached to their journals would prevent a barrel from going through the centerline of the crank, wouldn't they? Think about how they have to rotate through the centerline.
 
Yep, the gun mounts between the cylinder banks and fires through the prop shaft, which is not mounted on the crank. The prop is gear driven from the crank, and it's shaft is below the centerline of the crank.

The piston rods attached to their journals would prevent a barrel from going through the centerline of the crank, wouldn't they? Think about how they have to rotate through the centerline.
Yeah, the connecting rod travel would make through the shaft a little tricky. The closest I ever got to a ME-109 was in a technical museum in Speer, Germany. (I may have this wrong as I see they have an intact one.) It had been recovered in the desert after being brought down. They had decided not to restore it and displayed it in a diorama meant to simulate where/how it was found. The cowl had been ripped off and the engine was visible but I couldn’t see enough to satisfy my curiosity.
There is an excellent diagram in the attached link:

 
Where was it? When was it discovered? When was it pulled out? We're remains in it? Who was the pilot? Where is it, now? Etc?

The pilot had a problem and landed safely on a frozen lake in 1943, I think in Finland.
When they tried to recover it. It had sunk into the lake.
The aircraft is at the Chino Air Museum in Southern California.
 
The museum also has the only A6M "Zero" still flying with it's original engine. There are a few others but the engines were replaced with American engines. Lindberg flew this plane.

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The prop was gear driven.

I figured that the propeller was offset from the theoretical crankshaft centerline. And that it had a gear reduction to reduce RPM so the propeller tip speed wasn't too fast. I can't recall why there's a maximum tip speed.

The cannon fired through the prop shaft, not the crankshaft.

I solved that in #8. :)
 
The piston rods attached to their journals would prevent a barrel from going through the centerline of the crank, wouldn't they? Think about how they have to rotate through the centerline.

It seems to be that an ICE crankshaft doesn't have an actual centerline that could be used as a gun barrel.
 
The museum also has the only A6M "Zero" still flying with it's original engine. There are a few others but the engines were replaced with American engines. Lindberg flew this plane.

Most airplanes painted to represent Zeros are T-6s.

Black Sheep Squadron was filmed at Indian Dunes (near Magic Mountain).
 
Just from a perspective of history, and knowing the costs would be insane, I'd love to see that restored.
 
The Wikipedia page says the Messerschmitt Bf109 holds the most produced airframe record.
 
The Wikipedia page says the Messerschmitt Bf109 holds the most produced airframe record.

That’s not true at all. The Cessna 172 holds the record for most produced civilian aircraft and the Illyushin IL-2 the most produced military aircraft.
 
Take it up with Wikipedia.
 
Another conservative culture war battle is CRP:

Aircraft equipped with contra-rotating propellers, also referred to as CRP,[1] coaxial contra-rotating propellers, or high-speed propellers, apply the maximum power of usually a single piston or turboprop engine to drive a pair of coaxial propellers in contra-rotation. Two propellers are arranged one behind the other, and power is transferred from the engine via a planetary gear or spur gear transmission. Contra-rotating propellers are also known as counter-rotating propellers,[2][3] although counter-rotating propellers is much more widely used when referring to airscrews on separate non-coaxial shafts turning in opposite directions.
 
It's a BF-109 E-7 (Emil) Fighter bomber. If it's the one recovered by Jim Pearce in 2018 IIRC, then it was removed from a frozen lake in Russia. Assuming it's the Pearce recovery, when found it was entirely encased in ice. It has a stretched-metal aluminium and stainless steel airframe. This one has two 7.92 machine guns mounted over the engine, two more in the wings and two 20mm cannons also mounted in the wings but all the wing-mounted guns seem to be missing. I cannot tell from the OP's photos whether the engine central-mounted cannon is part of this version.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
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