• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What do you think of the War of Northern Attrition?

jonny5

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
24,114
Reaction score
3,941
Location
Republic of Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
In the eyes of the federal government they had never left the US.

Im not doing split quotes so Ill just respond to the first. If they left the US, then what does it matter whats in the eyes of the US? Thats the whole point here. What right does anyone have to decide who is and isnt governed? That goes against the very spirit of the US.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
 

CaughtInThe

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
63,726
Reaction score
42,966
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's funny that some sane Americans still don't realize that we're fighting confederates from the late 1800s.
 

jpevans

Masshole
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
4,852
Reaction score
2,690
Location
Western Mass.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
What's all that bushwah about "no oath sworn in heaven?" All that mattered was, did the South have the right to secede or not. Typical politician, avoiding the key question.
What does arguing about whether or not they had a "right" to secede or not do, they did & got defeated, but not punished so the formed the KKK (Election police) 7 Jim Crow laws, share cropping, lynching etc.
They should have been treated more like the Tories were after the revolution.
 

Ouroboros

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
7,987
Reaction score
1,145
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Yep. Soldiers who agreed to leave by the way in a few days
Sounds like a latter-day rationalization to gain rhetorical advantage. Besides, if Lincoln had actually been willing to allow secession, he would have accepted that his people had to abide by the rules of a separate country. Most of his rhetoric is all about preserving the Union at all costs.
 

vegas giants

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
96,682
Reaction score
15,076
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Sounds like a latter-day rationalization to gain rhetorical advantage. Besides, if Lincoln had actually been willing to allow secession, he would have accepted that his people had to abide by the rules of a separate country. Most of his rhetoric is all about preserving the Union at all costs.
I stated a fact. They were told the fort would be evacuated in a few days. But the south wanted a reason for war so they attacked. Once they fired the first shot all bets are off
 

Ouroboros

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
7,987
Reaction score
1,145
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
What does arguing about whether or not they had a "right" to secede or not do, they did & got defeated, but not punished so the formed the KKK (Election police) 7 Jim Crow laws, share cropping, lynching etc.
They should have been treated more like the Tories were after the revolution.

The question of the right to secession makes all the difference, given that the Left so frequently labels the Confederates "traitors."
 

Ouroboros

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
7,987
Reaction score
1,145
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I stated a fact. They were told the fort would be evacuated in a few days. But the south wanted a reason for war so they attacked. Once they fired the first shot all bets are off
Nope, all bets are not off. Separate countries have the right to expel hostiles. But just for grins, how do you source your "fact?"
 

vegas giants

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
96,682
Reaction score
15,076
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Nope, all bets are not off. Separate countries have the right to expel hostiles. But just for grins, how do you source your "fact?"
If you fire 3000 rounds at a US military base you become a hostile country that we share a border with.


We will crush you
 

vegas giants

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
96,682
Reaction score
15,076
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Nope, all bets are not off. Separate countries have the right to expel hostiles. But just for grins, how do you source your "fact?"
At 1 a.m. on April 12, the aides brought Anderson a message from Beauregard: "If you will state the time which you will evacuate Fort Sumter, and agree in the meantime that you will not use your guns against us unless ours shall be employed against Fort Sumter, we will abstain from opening fire upon you." After consulting with his senior officers, Maj. Anderson replied that he would evacuate Sumter by noon, April 15, unless he received new orders from his government or additional supplies. Col. Chesnut considered this reply to be too conditional and wrote a reply, which he handed to Anderson at 3:20 a.m.: "Sir: by authority of Brigadier General Beauregard, commanding the Provisional Forces of the Confederate States, we have the honor to notify you that he will open fire of his batteries on Fort Sumter in one hour from this time." Anderson escorted the officers back to their boat, shook hands with each one, and said "If we never meet in this world again, God grant that we may meet in the next."[42][43][44][4
 

Ouroboros

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
7,987
Reaction score
1,145
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
At 1 a.m. on April 12, the aides brought Anderson a message from Beauregard: "If you will state the time which you will evacuate Fort Sumter, and agree in the meantime that you will not use your guns against us unless ours shall be employed against Fort Sumter, we will abstain from opening fire upon you." After consulting with his senior officers, Maj. Anderson replied that he would evacuate Sumter by noon, April 15, unless he received new orders from his government or additional supplies. Col. Chesnut considered this reply to be too conditional and wrote a reply, which he handed to Anderson at 3:20 a.m.: "Sir: by authority of Brigadier General Beauregard, commanding the Provisional Forces of the Confederate States, we have the honor to notify you that he will open fire of his batteries on Fort Sumter in one hour from this time." Anderson escorted the officers back to their boat, shook hands with each one, and said "If we never meet in this world again, God grant that we may meet in the next."[42][43][44][4
I assume from the notations this is from a Wiki article?

Even so, the people of a separate country are the ones who set the conditions for expelling hostiles, not the occupiers.
 

jpevans

Masshole
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
4,852
Reaction score
2,690
Location
Western Mass.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
The question of the right to secession makes all the difference, given that the Left so frequently labels the Confederates "traitors.
I can't think of a better description.
 

vegas giants

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
96,682
Reaction score
15,076
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I assume from the notations this is from a Wiki article?

Even so, the people of a separate country are the ones who set the conditions for expelling hostiles, not the occupiers.
Yep. And if you fire 3000 rounds at US soldiers it's on like donkey kong
 

element94

Union Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
9,193
Reaction score
4,341
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Maybe the United States Miitary should occupy Texas before this get out of hand. They have the legal right where, once again:rolleyes:, Insurrection is being fomented.
 

P_T

Retired and satisfied
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
195
Location
mid-west
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I do believe these statues have a place in our heritage and a right to be preserved in a place of Honor. They were honorable men doing their duty as they saw it to be ! They treated each other honorably and settled a terrible dispute and the men rode home to their families.

A national Park for all the Crap should suffice.
 

P_T

Retired and satisfied
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
195
Location
mid-west
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Once State joins the Federal Union it looses a bit of Self and gains a lot of Defense. Try to create a walk out during the last act may create all kinds of hell !
 

element94

Union Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
9,193
Reaction score
4,341
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I do believe these statues have a place in our heritage and a right to be preserved in a place of Honor. They were honorable men doing their duty as they saw it to be ! They treated each other honorably and settled a terrible dispute and the men rode home to their families.

A national Park for all the Crap should suffice.
And of course a statue of Benedict Arnold would be welcomed. What honor is there in Traitorhood? There is no longer a Confederate States of America. No statues of Traitors to the United States in the United States.
 

Moi621

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
1,109
Reaction score
256
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Once State joins the Federal Union it looses a bit of Self and gains a lot of Defense. Try to create a walk out during the last act may create all kinds of hell !

What if it is The Federals that break the deal?
Consider # 10

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Health.
Education
Housing
etc.
are NOT powers delegated to the Federals.


And California did a better job of "it"
before the 1964 federal hegemony on our
state's rights guaranteed by #10 0f the
Bill Of Rights


Support The Autonomous
Bear Flag Republic of California autonomy!


Moi







Canadian-Muslims1.jpg
 

jpevans

Masshole
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
4,852
Reaction score
2,690
Location
Western Mass.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I do believe these statues have a place in our heritage and a right to be preserved in a place of Honor. They were honorable men doing their duty as they saw it to be ! They treated each other honorably and settled a terrible dispute and the men rode home to their families.

A national Park for all the Crap should suffice.
While we're at it, how's 'bout Hitler, Mussolini & Tajo?
Y'all want a park, start a gofundme for traitors fund. Y'all kin buy up all the Lee & Forrest & whoever statues & buy y'all a nice piece of land, charge admission. Get all the "Civil War";) Buffs.
 
Last edited:

jonny5

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
24,114
Reaction score
3,941
Location
Republic of Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
While we're at it, how's 'bout Hitler, Mussolini & Tajo?
Y'all want a park, start a gofundme for traitors fund. Y'all kin buy up all the Lee & Forrest & whoever statues & buy y'all a nice piece of land, charge admission. Get all the "Civil War";) Buffs.

Oh wow, that cant be the first nazi comparison in this thread, can it? That would be some sort of Godwins Law record!
 

Questerr

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
16,200
Reaction score
7,514
Location
San Antonio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
At foreign soldiers who had refused to obey orders to evacuate from the state governor.

What power did that state governor have to order the evacuation of troops from the territory of another country?

South Carolina abrogated any claim it had to any of the shared territory of the United States (for instance US military bases like Fort Sumter) when they unilaterally seceded without negotiations.
 

danielpalos

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
29,135
Reaction score
1,519
Location
US, California - federalist
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Still a failure of Government to promote and provide for the general welfare; providing for the common Defense could also have been better.
 

jpevans

Masshole
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
4,852
Reaction score
2,690
Location
Western Mass.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Oh wow, that cant be the first nazi comparison in this thread, can it? That would be some sort of Godwins Law record!
Godwin's law ain't law. So you don't count Hitler as an enemy of the U.S.? Which would be the only reason to bring it up, in the context it was mentioned.
 
Top Bottom