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What do you mean by 'The Ressurrection"?

RAMOSS

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I noticed one thing that seems to cause a lot of disagreement is when people do not use the same meaning for a term or event, and argue and misunderstand each other when discussing something.

Just to clarify, what do you mean when you talk about 'The Ressurrection'?? What exactly , in explicit terms do you mean?
 

Paleocon

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I noticed one thing that seems to cause a lot of disagreement is when people do not use the same meaning for a term or event, and argue and misunderstand each other when discussing something.

Just to clarify, what do you mean when you talk about 'The Ressurrection'?? What exactly , in explicit terms do you mean?

Jesus rising from the dead.

Alternatively, it can refer to the resurrection of all the dead at the end of time.
 

Moot

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Jesus rising from the dead.

Alternatively, it can refer to the resurrection of all the dead at the end of time.

Zombie apocalypse.
 

OrphanSlug

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I noticed one thing that seems to cause a lot of disagreement is when people do not use the same meaning for a term or event, and argue and misunderstand each other when discussing something.

Just to clarify, what do you mean when you talk about 'The Ressurrection'?? What exactly , in explicit terms do you mean?

"The Resurrection" phrased like that is a story about Jesus. The word resurrection in explicit terms is a concept of something living, then dying, and then coming back to life after death by some means.

In modern religious context it ends up mostly associated with the story of Jesus in biblical Christian terms. However, as a bronze age myth there are plenty of stories of resurrection happening for whatever reason that predate Jesus even being written about by about 1500+ years.
 

Frank Apisa

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As I see it, "the" Resurrection refers to the supposed return from the dead of Jesus.

Resurrection, however, does apply to the general resurrection of all people (those saved!) that some Christians think will happen at some point.
 

RAMOSS

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"The Resurrection" phrased like that is a story about Jesus. The word resurrection in explicit terms is a concept of something living, then dying, and then coming back to life after death by some means.

In modern religious context it ends up mostly associated with the story of Jesus in biblical Christian terms. However, as a bronze age myth there are plenty of stories of resurrection happening for whatever reason that predate Jesus even being written about by about 1500+ years.

There are some people who claim the resurrection was physical , and others that claim it was spiritual. Do you subscribe to one or the other, or do you discount the entire thing?

And, is it something that just Jesus has gone through, rather than other people who were 'raised from the dead', such as Lazarus?
 

OrphanSlug

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There are some people who claim the resurrection was physical , and others that claim it was spiritual. Do you subscribe to one or the other, or do you discount the entire thing?

And, is it something that just Jesus has gone through, rather than other people who were 'raised from the dead', such as Lazarus?

It is not necessarily about discount. But speaking of the story of Jesus we are talking about a physical resurrection that became spiritual as well. Now there are a few different takes on this, and we do need to at least acknowledge the potential pitfalls of translations and splintering of Christianity, but according to at least Luke those that went to the tomb where Jesus was placed found the heavy stone covering the entry to the tomb rolled away and they also did not find the body of Jesus. So according to that story physically and perhaps spiritually as well Jesus was gone. The remains of Jesus were not discovered suggesting an aspect to the story that perhaps does not fit in the confines of saying it was physical only or it was spiritual only.

Now Lazarus is only mentioned by John, and in that story you do have a more physical aspect to the condition where Jesus brought Lazarus back to life four days after his burial. Theology is mixed on the meaning of the story. Some suggest it was a prelude, a reason among many, for Jesus' own crucifixion. Others suggest it became apart of a bigger conspiracy to kill Jesus, the witnesses to Lazarus' resurrection became central to local council (Roman) and local priests (Judaism) to then kill Jesus. Either way, there is little comparison between the resurrection of Jesus and Jesus' act in the resurrection of Lazarus because of the meaning. Again, consider the theology of the story not to much the practical aspect of it in philosophical terms. Most of the scripture of the period was about purpose, not really some evaluation of any one story in our context of this discussion. On the level of meaning, the resurrection of Jesus associates to savior while the resurrection of Lazarus is about place and witness.

I am agnostic, so I have no real faith in this story or really any other biblical accounts of various miracles. I have no vested interest in them being fact or not. But I do pay attention to history.

I will add that there is plenty of bronze age myths that made their way into many religious across the period, some going as far back as the days of polytheism. The *idea* of resurrection predates both the authoring of John and Luke. Egyptian mythology gives us the story of Osiris, which is more associated to reign and symbolism. And we happen to be talking about something some 1500+ years before the authors of the NT talked about Jesus. Going even further back to Greek mythology there are dozens of accounts of Gods taking the form of man (or woman,) only to be killed then resurrected and/or going back to the afterlife. Dionysus and Attis, from Greek mythology. Odin, from Norse mythology. All had some mystical account of life, dying, then some sort of divine act bring them back to life. And basically we are talking about stories anywhere from 2500 BC to 1500 BC. In our context these beliefs may have been cult like, but they are all based on various stories from around the Bronze Age that ended up in all sorts of religions.

You guys really think Christianity was original with the idea of resurrection? Or, original with the idea of a God producing a man on earth by some mystical means? Or, original with the idea of a "Creator" in any context? Humanity has developed many beliefs over history, well into the thousands of systems of belief.
 

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There are some people who claim the resurrection was physical , and others that claim it was spiritual.

Have you never read the Bible? The physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead is recorded in the Gospels.

After the resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43). He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39, John 20:27), and people even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9).

"And Jesus said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:38-39).
 

RAMOSS

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Have you never read the Bible? The physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead is recorded in the Gospels.

After the resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43). He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39, John 20:27), and people even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9).

"And Jesus said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:38-39).

I have heard a number of different claims from different Christians. I want to know what any specific person interprets the New Testament.
 

Sherman123

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There are some people who claim the resurrection was physical , and others that claim it was spiritual. Do you subscribe to one or the other, or do you discount the entire thing?

And, is it something that just Jesus has gone through, rather than other people who were 'raised from the dead', such as Lazarus?

To be perfectly honest I've never heard someone state that they believe the resurrection was a spiritual as opposed to physical miracle. The physical resurrection of Christ lies at the core of Christianity.
 

Logicman

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I have heard a number of different claims from different Christians. I want to know what any specific person interprets the New Testament.

Well ask yourself a question, Ramoss - if it was just spiritual how would the people have known Christ was risen? And did you notice the tomb was empty?

And why did the women and disciples get all excited if it was just a spiritual resurrection, since everyone would supposedly have one when they die?
 

RAMOSS

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To be perfectly honest I've never heard someone state that they believe the resurrection was a spiritual as opposed to physical miracle. The physical resurrection of Christ lies at the core of Christianity.

I have heard several people say it. One of the more theologians who mentions it is Marcus Borg , and I think (I mgiht be wrong) that the JW's promote a spiritual resurrection.
 

RAMOSS

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Well ask yourself a question, Ramoss - if it was just spiritual how would the people have known Christ was risen? And did you notice the tomb was empty?

And why did the women and disciples get all excited if it was just a spiritual resurrection, since everyone would supposedly have one when they die?


Well, I really don't know.. however, Marcus Borg addressed that subject. I suspect you will find lots wrong with his interpretation....

The Resurrection of Jesus: ?Physical/Bodily? or ?Spiritual/Mystical?? » Marcus J. Borg official website
 

RAMOSS

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Well ask yourself a question, Ramoss - if it was just spiritual how would the people have known Christ was risen? And did you notice the tomb was empty?

And why did the women and disciples get all excited if it was just a spiritual resurrection, since everyone would supposedly have one when they die?

I personally do not take the stories about the resurrection at 'face value'. They were written by people decades later, by people hears stories from 'those who came before. I do not accept the 'very early' writing that you push for any of the gospels, so they are not eye witness, and it there was time for stories to develop.
 

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Logicman

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I personally do not take the stories about the resurrection at 'face value'. They were written by people decades later, by people hears stories from 'those who came before. I do not accept the 'very early' writing that you push for any of the gospels, so they are not eye witness, and it there was time for stories to develop.

Nonsense.
 

RAMOSS

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Logicman

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Well. you have your opinion, which of course, it does not appear you can defend with clarity and reason.

I'm not the one linking to the loony Jesus Seminar guy (Marcus Borg), you are. The Jesus Seminar has been roundly criticized for it biased anti-supernaturalism.

"According to the Jesus Seminar, the historical Jesus, by definition, must be a non-supernatural figure."
No miracles, no resurrection, nothing. You people gut the historical Jesus and make him into nothing more than some itinerate preacher.

Shameful.

Apologetics Training - Advice to Christian Apologists | Reasonable Faith

So when you want to do one of these resurrection threads, at least go on record in the OP by identifying your blatant, anti-supernatural bias. Don't bother trying to pose as one who is open-minded or scholarly about it.
 
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Doc Doom

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I'm not the one linking to the loony Jesus Seminar guy (Marcus Borg), you are. The Jesus Seminar has been roundly criticized for it biased anti-supernaturalism.

"According to the Jesus Seminar, the historical Jesus, by definition, must be a non-supernatural figure."
No miracles, no resurrection, nothing. You people gut the historical Jesus and make him into nothing more than some itinerate preacher.

Shameful.

Apologetics Training - Advice to Christian Apologists | Reasonable Faith

So when you want to do one of these resurrection threads, at least go on record in the OP by identifying your blatant, anti-supernatural bias. Don't bother trying to pose as one who is open-minded or scholarly about it.

You really should see about adding another box to that Fundamentalists soapbox your standing on. The key word here is "supernatural" and not just concerning this jesus either. I believe the point they are trying to get across to you is that the resurrection story in the Bible is not new! And even as supernatural as these resurrection stories are they pale in comparison to a bunny rabbit that passes out colored eggs to kids once a year! Is that rabbit supernatural?

The Resurrection Stories
https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/leipolt.html

Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=0

Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior
Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior
 

Frank Apisa

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Nonsense.

Actually, not "nonsense."

We can show that a short story...a sentence actually...can be passed from person to person in a single room...all within just minutes...

...and find that the story changes significantly.


To suppose that stories passed from person to person over years...centuries in some cases...were not grossly distorted, is being disingenuous.

The references you give to the Biblical stories should be taken with more than just a grain of salt.
 

Logicman

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You really should see about adding another box to that Fundamentalists soapbox your standing on. The key word here is "supernatural" and not just concerning this jesus either. I believe the point they are trying to get across to you is that the resurrection story in the Bible is not new! And even as supernatural as these resurrection stories are they pale in comparison to a bunny rabbit that passes out colored eggs to kids once a year! Is that rabbit supernatural?

The Resurrection Stories
https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/leipolt.html

Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=0

Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior
Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior

Show me the direct linkage where Christianity borrowed anything from your pagan MYTHS? Who copied what, when, where, etc.?

23 Reasons Why Scholars Know Jesus Is Not A Copy Of Pagan Religions


https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.c...-know-jesus-is-not-a-copy-of-pagan-religions/

You're busted. Again.
 

Logicman

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Actually, not "nonsense."

We can show that a short story...a sentence actually...can be passed from person to person in a single room...all within just minutes...

...and find that the story changes significantly.

To suppose that stories passed from person to person over years...centuries in some cases...were not grossly distorted, is being disingenuous.

The references you give to the Biblical stories should be taken with more than just a grain of salt.

You can't show that the story of Jesus changed significantly. You don't have the goods, just the baseless claim. And if you think you do have it, then document the time and specific dates, etc., that it allegedly changed?

Cowboy up, Frank!
 

Doc Doom

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RAMOSS

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I'm not the one linking to the loony Jesus Seminar guy (Marcus Borg), you are. The Jesus Seminar has been roundly criticized for it biased anti-supernaturalism.

"According to the Jesus Seminar, the historical Jesus, by definition, must be a non-supernatural figure."
No miracles, no resurrection, nothing. You people gut the historical Jesus and make him into nothing more than some itinerate preacher.

Shameful.

Apologetics Training - Advice to Christian Apologists | Reasonable Faith

So when you want to do one of these resurrection threads, at least go on record in the OP by identifying your blatant, anti-supernatural bias. Don't bother trying to pose as one who is open-minded or scholarly about it.


And?? do you actually have a point?? So, some group has common sense and disagrees with you.
 

Logicman

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No not really because your unaware of the ancient civilizations that long predated christianity and their "Sun" god dig back further.

I'm probably more aware of that than you.

And look - even if there were previous resurrections, it still doesn't mean Christ didn't rise from the dead.

So you've got nothing but the usual conjecture.
 
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