what do you believe is the underlying problem resulting in these outcomes?

[justabubba]

Fifteen percent of those enrolled at the start of the 2020-2021 academic year — 7.2 million children — had a diagnosed disability, according to the government-run National Center for Education Statistics. However, unlike children with physical disabilities or those with specific learning disabilities, the majority of whom are integrated into mainstream classrooms for most of the school day, only 19 percent of children with an intellectual or developmental disability (IDD) ... spend the majority of their day in general ed.
... this has dire consequences, with just 40 percent of kids with IDD graduating from high school and just 15 percent of the 6.5 million U.S. residents with IDD finding work when they come of age.

most of our ed debates are about the typical school kid. this one is about the students who have special needs because of the intellectual or developmental disability

based on the above excerpt, what do you believe may have caused that 40% graduation rate and but 15% finding work when achieving the age of emancipation?




https://truthout.org/articles/segre...tent&eId=a3ad37ee-9336-4de1-9b02-91dba586b3ea

 

[Individual]

most of our ed debates are about the typical school kid. this one is about the students who have special needs because of the intellectual or developmental disability

based on the above excerpt, what do you believe may have caused that 40% graduation rate and but 15% finding work when achieving the age of emancipation?




https://truthout.org/articles/segre...tent&eId=a3ad37ee-9336-4de1-9b02-91dba586b3ea

Obviously a combination of many different things.

 

[justabubba]

Obviously a combination of many different things.

if you read the link, the author laid the blame for the weak outcomes at the feet of the classroom teachers and the schools who failed in the efforts to 'mainstream' those afflicted kids

should we reasonably expect our classroom teachers to be able to teach all of the kids the material despite that a portion are recognizably unable to master it, in addition to being developmentally slow compared to their unafflicted classmates

should we expect average outcomes for school children who do not have average abilities and aptitudes?

 

[lemmiwinx]

People with disabilities get extra benefits? Didn't take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to sort that one out did it.

 

[justabubba]

People with disabilities get extra benefits? Didn't take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to sort that one out did it.

the article presented that the intellectually and developmentally impaired are not receiving the extra benefits to which they are entitled if we examine the lack of success against the typical student's academic and work skill training

i'm guessing you have no experience in medicine or aerospace

 

[Individual]

if you read the link, the author laid the blame for the weak outcomes at the feet of the classroom teachers and the schools who failed in the efforts to 'mainstream' those afflicted kids

should we reasonably expect our classroom teachers to be able to teach all of the kids the material despite that a portion are recognizably unable to master it, in addition to being developmentally slow compared to their unafflicted classmates

should we expect average outcomes for school children who do not have average abilities and aptitudes?

That may be one cause for the list.

 

[lemmiwinx]

the article presented that the intellectually and developmentally impaired are not receiving the extra benefits to which they are entitled if we examine the lack of success against the typical student's academic and work skill training

i'm guessing you have no experience in medicine or aerospace

Pretty sure I wasn't involved in any decisions to deny people with disabilities their due benefits. Must be typical government red tape and inefficiency that's the problem then.

 

[ttwtt78640]

most of our ed debates are about the typical school kid. this one is about the students who have special needs because of the intellectual or developmental disability

based on the above excerpt, what do you believe may have caused that 40% graduation rate and but 15% finding work when achieving the age of emancipation?




https://truthout.org/articles/segre...tent&eId=a3ad37ee-9336-4de1-9b02-91dba586b3ea

That’s the wondrous outcome of ‘social promotion’ combined with saving loads of money that it would take to offer appropriate (and supposedly legally required) special education.

 

[justabubba]

That’s the wondrous outcome of ‘social promotion’ combined with saving loads of money that it would take to offer appropriate (and supposedly legally required) special education.

seems we have saddled public schools, which have a teacher shortage, with offering special needs education simultaneously with average students of a higher ability to learn

those special needs kids often also arrive with significant behavior issues, which do nothing but undermine a teacher's attempts to manage class discipline

it surprises me that any reasonable person would expect kids of very dissimilar abilities to be able to all succeed in that assembly line we call public education

if the educator spends the time and effort to bring the special needs student along then that is time not spent helping the students who are regular to higher achievers

why do we not accept that special needs kids have no real opportunity to succeed in a mainstream learning environment. they simply cannot keep up. the alternative is to slow down the learning of the students who are able to learn at a faster rate

 

[Antiwar]

seems we have saddled public schools, which have a teacher shortage, with offering special needs education simultaneously with average students of a higher ability to learn

those special needs kids often also arrive with significant behavior issues, which do nothing but undermine a teacher's attempts to manage class discipline

it surprises me that any reasonable person would expect kids of very dissimilar abilities to be able to all succeed in that assembly line we call public education

if the educator spends the time and effort to bring the special needs student along then that is time not spent helping the students who are regular to higher achievers

why do we not accept that special needs kids have no real opportunity to succeed in a mainstream learning environment. they simply cannot keep up. the alternative is to slow down the learning of the students who are able to learn at a faster rate

Why did you quote that article and then go against what it recommends?

 

[justabubba]

Why did you quote that article and then go against what it recommends?

because i believe the article's conclusions are faulty

no teacher should be expected to teach a class filled with students of average aptitude and ability and then be expected to simultaneously educate students who have identifiable learning/developmental disabilities
but that is what happens when we mainstream students with such intellectual disabilities
to serve the kids, each having an Individualized Education Plan and some with a 504 behavior plan, then we either ignore their slower needs to reach the faster students or we impede the more able students to slow down the instruction so the IEP challenged students can try to master the presented material
parents of the IEP/504 kids expect their kids to have the same experiences and outcomes as the students who are not intellectually/developmentally challenged. it is an unreasonable expectation and we should not impose it on our teachers and the more capable students

 

[Antiwar]

because i believe the article's conclusions are faulty

no teacher should be expected to teach a class filled with students of average aptitude and ability and then be expected to simultaneously educate students who have identifiable learning/developmental disabilities
but that is what happens when we mainstream students with such intellectual disabilities
to serve the kids, each having an Individualized Education Plan and some with a 504 behavior plan, then we either ignore their slower needs to reach the faster students or we impede the more able students to slow down the instruction so the IEP challenged students can try to master the presented material
parents of the IEP/504 kids expect their kids to have the same experiences and outcomes as the students who are not intellectually/developmentally challenged. it is an unreasonable expectation and we should not impose it on our teachers and the more capable students

Is your opinion based on you currently having children or grandchildren in schools where you believe this is an issue that is affecting their education?

Are you involved in education?

It seems to me that the article doesn't (can't) sufficiently cover the complexities of the subject. The article advocates for mainstreaming and you seem to be advocating for the opposite.

 

[ttwtt78640]

seems we have saddled public schools, which have a teacher shortage, with offering special needs education simultaneously with average students of a higher ability to learn

those special needs kids often also arrive with significant behavior issues, which do nothing but undermine a teacher's attempts to manage class discipline

it surprises me that any reasonable person would expect kids of very dissimilar abilities to be able to all succeed in that assembly line we call public education

if the educator spends the time and effort to bring the special needs student along then that is time not spent helping the students who are regular to higher achievers

why do we not accept that special needs kids have no real opportunity to succeed in a mainstream learning environment. they simply cannot keep up. the alternative is to slow down the learning of the students who are able to learn at a faster rate

Hmm… why not have more special education (dedicated) classes, get rid of social promotion (outside of special education) and accept the idea that mainstreaming was better as a theory than it has worked as currently practiced.

 

[multivita-man]

Hmm… why not have more special education (dedicated) classes, get rid of social promotion (outside of special education) and accept the idea that mainstreaming was better as a theory than it has worked as currently practiced.

of our ed debates are about the typical school kid. this one is about the students who have special needs because of the intellectual or developmental disability

based on the above excerpt, what do you believe may have caused that 40% graduation rate and but 15% finding work when achieving the age of emancipation?




https://truthout.org/articles/segre...tent&eId=a3ad37ee-9336-4de1-9b02-91dba586b3ea

I only skimmed the article but one thing that needs to be pointed out is that referring to 'kids with special needs' broadly can be misleading, as if they're all just one big group. Supporting special needs kids really depends on the disability. It also depends on the training of the school and the specific educators and the resources that they have - as I believe the article notes. Modern education best practices in general advises identifying students who are struggling and then giving them additional support and attention so that they can keep up. Keep in mind that the learning environment can differ radically from one school to the next, depending on the student population as a whole and the pervasive community culture.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I only skimmed the article but one thing that needs to be pointed out is that referring to 'kids with special needs' broadly can be misleading, as if they're all just one big group. Supporting special needs kids really depends on the disability. It also depends on the training of the school and the specific educators and the resources that they have - as I believe the article notes. Modern education best practices in general advises identifying students who are struggling and then giving them additional support and attention so that they can keep up. Keep in mind that the learning environment can differ radically from one school to the next, depending on the student population as a whole and the pervasive community culture.

That is true to some extent, but it’s mainly addressing symptoms of the problem rather than its causes. If your only tool is a hammer than you must address all fasteners as if they were nails. It should be no surprise that ‘unruly’ students with a 3rd grade educational level still tend to behave like ‘unruly’ 3rd graders when ‘socially promoted’ into a 6th (or higher) grade classroom.

This is true in the workplace as well, if a worker doing some minimal subset of their assigned job duties is enough to avoid termination and get them periodic COLA pay raises, then they may well see that as satisfactory performance. After all, they must be doing what the job requires or they would have been terminated or denied a COLA pay raise. Public employee unions (which include public school teachers) tend to support a worker’s initial qualification (certification?), seniority and decent attendance (and nothing more) are deemed sufficient to meet the terms of their union employment contract, so those ‘slackers’ can’t be fired without other causes.

 

[justabubba]

Is your opinion based on you currently having children or grandchildren in schools where you believe this is an issue that is affecting their education?

Are you involved in education?

It seems to me that the article doesn't (can't) sufficiently cover the complexities of the subject. The article advocates for mainstreaming and you seem to be advocating for the opposite.

i do not see the article advocating for mainstreaming. please cut/paste the portion you believe does take that view as i could have misunderstood what was being presented

 

[ttwtt78640]

i do not see the article advocating for mainstreaming. please cut/paste the portion you believe does take that view as i could have misunderstood what was being presented

Really?

Segregating Disabled Children From Their Peers Doesn’t Help Them, Advocates Say​

Classrooms that include students with diverse physical and intellectual capacities improve learning outcomes for all.

 

[justabubba]

Hmm… why not have more special education (dedicated) classes, get rid of social promotion (outside of special education) and accept the idea that mainstreaming was better as a theory than it has worked as currently practiced.

we are definitely on the same page

there are many teachers who did not sign up to be special ed teachers
but they became compelled to do so while also teaching mainstream capable students
that may be a disincentive to some remaining in the teaching profession

additionally, if we slow the pace of learning for much of the class so that the slowest students can master the material, have we not committed a disservice against those students without a learning disability?

i believe one premise for mainstreaming all students was to prevent the disabled from feeling they are less than. how are they not able to recognize they are different from the more able classmates. we should instead ability-group those being taught

it is my surmise we came to this not so much to help the instructionally/developmentally impaired as to placate their parents into believing their child is not all that different by mainstreaming them

 

[justabubba]

Really?

let's then go to the immediately following sub-heading:

Classrooms that include students with diverse physical and intellectual capacities improve learning outcomes for all.

 

[justabubba]

Really?

Although IDEA states that the least restrictive environment reflects the law’s preference for educating students with disabilities in regular classrooms with appropriate aides and supports, schools routinely flout these recommendations, segregating and warehousing students with cognitive delays.

to me, that points to ability-grouping, rather than mainstreaming, being found inappropriate

 

[justabubba]

Really?

another:

When a school removes a child from a general education setting and puts them in a more restrictive special education classroom, we’ve seen physical restraint and isolation increase. The kids who are most at risk of physical restraint or seclusion are those with IDD.”

again, this appears to be supportive of mainstreaming and not ability grouping

 

[ttwtt78640]

let's then go to the immediately following sub-heading:

That was followed by the dismal (40%?) HS graduation rates and later employment opportunities (15%?) for those with disabilities.

…this has dire consequences, with just 40 percent of kids with IDD graduating from high school and just 15 percent of the 6.5 million U.S. residents with IDD finding work when they come of age.

 

[ttwtt78640]

another:

again, this appears to be supportive of mainstreaming and not ability grouping

Nope, that’s noting how messed up some special education environments have been allowed to become.

 

[Antiwar]

there are many teachers who did not sign up to be special ed teachers
but they became compelled to do so while also teaching mainstream capable students
that may be a disincentive to some remaining in the teaching profession

additionally, if we slow the pace of learning for much of the class so that the slowest students can master the material, have we not committed a disservice against those students without a learning disability?

i believe one premise for mainstreaming all students was to prevent the disabled from feeling they are less than. how are they not able to recognize they are different from the more able classmates. we should instead ability-group those being taught

it is my surmise we came to this not so much to help the instructionally/developmentally impaired as to placate their parents into believing their child is not all that different by mainstreaming them

What are your assessments based on?

 

[justabubba]

What are your assessments based on?

being acquainted with a number of so affected teachers and working with children who have individual education plans