What do conservative and liberal mean?

[ElChupacabra]

What do conservative and liberal mean?

Checkerboard Strangler's post was a good one in helping define that.

1) Those like our Founders who believed in and wanted* personal freedom and thus a limited central government.

You can have personal freedom and a larger government; much as we do now.

2) Those like our Founders who believed a central government was like a monopoly and thus would be mostly mistaken and inefficient at best, and genocidal at worst.

The founding fathers were men of their time, and as such conditioned by the socio-economic and political realities. I do think their concern of a large central government is still sound today, but this nation has grown significantly since its inception and as a result government has as well in order to manage it all. Arguments on how much should be dealt with at the federal versus state level is a fair discussion to have.

3) Those like our Founders who believed that personal freedom was not only most fulfilling ( pride in being self/family-supporting, etc.)* but was best for humankind because it forced every individual to support himself (like a link in a chain) and thus strengthen the entire community rather than identify some as dependent (or weak links) on others and not contributors.* *

Personal freedom is great, but where the boundaries are changes with the times. What makes sense today may not in 50 years.

Liberal are the opposite-right?

There was a time when people were less binary thinkers. You had conservative leaning Democrats (Blue Dogs) and more liberal conservatives who favor liberal social policies and more conservative financial views. It's actually more representative of how Americans generally opine on a variety of topics, but things have become more polarized because people spend too much time watching TV and reading social media.

 

[spud_meister]

why??? our conservative founders were for freedom and liberals are for government. Where does that confuse you?????

Your Founders were liberals and progressives. The conservatives of the time supported the British Monarchy.

 

[Bullseye]

Nancy Pelosi - Conservapedia
https://www.conservapedia.com/Nancy_Pelosi
Dec 16, 2018 - Nancy Pelosi has been Democratic Leader of the House since 2002. ..... She prides herself in "being called a liberal" and rejects the label of ...

She's a politician, OF COURSE she wants to be labeled "liberal". She's not.

 

[Bullseye]

all the same, Sorry

Sorry, no. not even close on most things.

Norman Thomas ( socialist presidential candidate)
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.

You just proved my point. Do you understand?

 

[Nickyjo]

The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred ...
https://www.amazon.com/War-Christmas-Liberal-Christian-Holiday/.../B001G8WXF0
In the United States of America, a nation overwhelmingly Christian, literally any sign of Christmas in public can now lead to complaints, litigation, angry protests, ...

In some instances, there should be an attack on Christmas. It’s not as if it is a religious holiday anymore anyway. The country has changed in the past generations, since the Scopes trial and other incidents. I moved from a Catholic school in New York to a public school in California. I was shocked to see a play-like religious representation of Mary, Joseph and Jesus in a public high school assembly. It seemed to me that had/has no place there, though as you might imagine my experience in Catholic school was different. We have a substantial number of Jews who dont believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and a growing number of Muslims who honor Jesus as a great prophet but don’t believe he was divine. It is no disrespect to my beliefs if the government stays out of this area, even as it closes schools at Christmas and allows Jews to take religious holidays off from school. Can’t see Jesus getting upset about the current situation, tho present-day Pharisees might.

On a related topic, First Hypocrite Trump made noises about how with his election people would be able to say “Merry Christmas” again, typically trying to increase paranoia. A TV station then did a montage of the Obama’s repeatedly saying, you guessed it, “Merry Christmas.” Not bad for a Muslim from Kenya.

 

[Nickyjo]

On the general question of lib

 

[James972]

Your Founders were liberals and progressives. The conservatives of the time supported the British Monarchy.

conservatives are for limited govt, not monarchy or communism. Do you understand?

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

What do conservative and liberal mean?

This is a good question, and I think it has two answers.

Historically, the ideological terms both have their roots in the late 1600s and early 1700s.

Historical Liberalism has its roots in Locke and the Enlightenment: Natural rights, consent of the governed, and the social contract.

The foundational ideal of liberalism is that in a state of nature, man is inherently good - and the natural freedoms and rights inherent in man, in the aggregate, tend towards a better society.

Conservatism, historically, has its roots in a rejection of liberalism - with the central ideal being that man is inherently bad (or misguided), and left to a state of nature, would devolve to beasts. The position of Conservatism is that society is kept together by traditions and social mores, and that any changes to those traditions threaten the stability of society as a whole.

In the modern sense, the terms have almost no meaning whatsoever. They refer to teams, not ideologies.

 

[Jason Warfield]

conservatives are for limited govt, not monarchy or communism. Do you understand?

Depends on the context and time period. For example, you consider conservatives to want limited government. And for today's context you would be right. However, the Democrat of today came from the party of Jefferson called Democratic-Republicans which would in the 1830's for the Democrats of today...and in the beginning they favored smaller government.

In 1854, the GOP was created on the platforms of labor and slavery. They were anti-slavery and pro-capitalism...from the perspective of labor and supported labor unions. When Lincoln won his re-election campaign, Karl Marx wrote him a letter congratulating him.

Obviously, over time, things changed to where they are today.

However, in terms of who was conservative and who was liberal in the days of the Revolutionary War...France and other nations who either supported us or took interest in what we were trying to do DID consider us as liberals because liberalism at that time involved the Enlightenment writers that our Founders and Framers drew their inspirations from. Conservatism at that time meant maintaining the status quo or the monarchies. So when he said that the Founders were liberals....he was right.

 

[Drawdown]

conservatives are for limited govt, not monarchy or communism. Do you understand?

In the American context, there isn't a lot of practical difference between the two terms as the democratic party itself is right of center by any standard other than an American one.

 

[diz]

I generally don't use the terms anymore. When I do use the term "liberal" it's typically more in the vein of "western liberal values" which are anti-authoritarian. Leftists these days don't tend to have liberal values.

 

[Olddemocrat]

can you say what liberals are???

Yes, I can. But you should look it up for yourself. Think JFK, Liberal Party of New York, nomination for president, acceptance speech. That should be enough bread crumbs. I don't believe that my liberal politics have survived the years in much the same manner that your conservative politics have disappeared. As one writer puts it, there have been two opposing forces fighting for supremacy since the beginning of time. The example he used was the middle ages when you had the pragmatic king on one side, selfish and grasping and doing anything to get his way. On the other side was the church, with all of these rules that everyone was to live by. Neither side was ever completely right or completely wrong, and both sides did terrible, simply awful things to get their way. Most of the time the prudent thing to do was to sit on the side lines and let them duke it out. But every now and then one side or the other wants to just blow everything up to get what they want. Then, you can't sit on the side anymore. You have to pick a side. So, JAMES 972, what side are you going to pick?

 

[Olddemocrat]

Conservative means you want freedom.

YES! Freedom to shoot the tax collector!!!

 

[James972]

In the modern sense, the terms have almost no meaning whatsoever. They refer to teams, not ideologies.

wrong of course. Can you tell us why one team supports certain supreme court justices and obamacare and the other almost 100% opposes??

 

[James972]

The foundational ideal of liberalism is that in a state of nature, man is inherently good - and the natural freedoms and rights inherent in man, in the aggregate, tend towards a better society.

totally wrong of course. Jesus and Locke created the individual and gave him the natural right to run his own life and be free from the liberal/monarchical/ communist/state to the greatest extent possible. This is why our Constitution hamstrings central govt to the greatest extent possible.

Conservatives like Burke were liberals too like Jesus Locke and Jefferson but they believed history and traditions had lessons to teach us such that pure individual liberty would not turn into anarchy as in the case of the French revolution. NOw do you understand?

 

[James972]

So, JAMES 972, what side are you going to pick?

all of human history is merely the battle between freedom and govt. As a conservative/libertarian I am on the side of freedom, ie the side of Aristotle, Jesus, Locke Jefferson,and Milton Friedman. Do you understand?

 

[vegas giants]

all of human history is merely the battle between freedom and govt. A a conservative/libertarian I am on the side of freedom, ie the side of Aristotle, Jesus, Locke Jefferson,and Milton Friedman. Do you understand?

So you are a liberal

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

totally wrong of course. Jesus and Locke created the individual and gave him the natural right to run his own life and be free from the liberal/monarchical/ communist/state to the greatest extent possible. This is why our Constitution hamstrings central govt to the greatest extent possible.

Conservatives like Burke were liberals too like Jesus Locke and Jefferson but they believed history and traditions had lessons to teach us such that pure individual liberty would not turn into anarchy as in the case of the French revolution. NOw do you understand?

You appear to be a fictional character.

I am not accusing you of lying about anything, or attacking you personally, but this post reads funnier than any possible parody could.

 

[James972]

this post reads funnier than any possible parody could.

but as a typical liberal you lack the ability to put your objection into words? Ever see a conservative have to run from a debate? What does that teach you?

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

but as a typical liberal you lack the ability to put your objection into words? Ever see a conservative have to run from a debate? What does that teach you?

You started your post with "Jesus and Locke created the individual".

That made it pretty clear that this wasn't a "debate" in any sense of the word. I don't fight unarmed men.

 

[James972]

You started your post with "Jesus and Locke created the individual".

.

if you disagree please say why or admit as a typical liberal you lack the ability to do so. Ever see a conservative have to run from a debate? what does that teach you??

 

[Olddemocrat]

all of human history is merely the battle between freedom and govt. As a conservative/libertarian I am on the side of freedom, ie the side of Aristotle, Jesus, Locke Jefferson,and Milton Friedman. Do you understand?

Missed the whole point, didn't you?

 

[Cynical]

I'll turn that over to the experts:




https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/liberal-meaning-origin-history

Here are two better (in my opinion) descriptive ways I found it put:

“Liberal can be traced back to the Latin word liber (meaning “free”), which is also the root of liberty ("the quality or state of being free") and libertine ("one leading a dissolute life").”

“The term liberal comes from the Latin liberalis, which means “pertaining to a free person.” Within the confines of political discourse, liberalism prescriptively refers to one open to new behavior and willing to discard traditional values, the antithesis of “Traditional Values™,” a revered cornerstone of conservative ideation.”

As far as I’m concerned today’s Libertarian would be closer to the traditional or classical meaning of what is a liberal. Very small and limited government with much, much less taxation. Many Libertarians view taxation as a means of taking away ones liberty or freedom.

In many ways the rise of modern liberalism in America was a rejection of traditional religious values and hence would be better described in the second definition. Today’s Democrat is really neither of these.

 

[Cynical]

You can have personal freedom and a larger government; much as we do now.

The more a government taxes you the more of your freedom they take from you.

 

[Cynical]

The words 'conservative' and 'liberal' mean just what their users intend them to mean, neither more nor less. I believe Lewis Carroll pointed out something of the sort long time ago

what tends to happen in discussions such as these is that when one person seeks to define another person or group there is always someone who rejects that definition.