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What can be done about this recent epidemic of blatant mass shoplifting?

You should research the difference between a bonded and insured security guard and a loss prevention specialist. It's a rare thing for a box store to employ the former who are allowed to apprehend--and hire the latter in droves who are not.

Oh, I know the difference. I worked in the security field for many years.

And what you are saying is almost nonsensical. You claim that it is a rare thing for a store to hire the former, which obviously is a
bonded and insured security guard" that has the "ability to apprehend". That is literally nonsensical, as I bet you do not even know why a bonded and insured security guard can not stop 90% of shoplifters.

And then you say that the latter, loss prevention specialists are not allowed to apprehend.

By what you just said there, it is clear to me that you really do not have a clue what you are talking about. That is just word vomit that is almost completely nonsensical.

Tell me, do you even know the legal requirements for an individual to make a citizen's arrest? I bet you don't, and apparently you think that only "bonded and insured" security can make an arrest.

I suggest you actually learn the facts, and not just try to dazzle others with your bullcrap.
 
No one said people are shoplifting in Starbucks. If Starbucks locations are closing due to safety concerns, I would take that to mean robberies are happening along with crazy homeless people threatening employees and hanging out outside panhandling and driving away business. If the police or zoning laws aren't providing a solution, then Starbucks might make a business decision to close stores where those types of incidents are occuring.
?? What are people shoplifting in Starbucks? The only thing not behind counters are mugs and cups. And I've never heard of a single shoplifting incident at Starbucks. (But hey, people probably pocket the occasional mug, sure.)
 

You were agreeing that it costs more to stop them than it does to just let them steal. That is what I was responding to, and it is not true.

No, not really...I wrote it was the status quo now but since there were few/no consequences to the shoplifting, wouldnt that potentially encourage more shoplifting and wouldnt that then start increasing the costs to make it even more prohibitive for insurance companies? Rates stores had to pay would go up. Would they still offset the losses? There, I spelled it out.
 

Is the OP about what to do about shoplifting or not?

I dont think posters need to keep pointing out the very obvious about a tangent. But that's just me. I'll pass.
 
?? What are people shoplifting in Starbucks? The only thing not behind counters are mugs and cups. And I've never heard of a single shoplifting incident at Starbucks. (But hey, people probably pocket the occasional mug, sure.)

Most likely it's vandalism or the area the places in question are such dangerous places, they can't guarantee the safety of their staff at those locations.
 

Pass laws to make it so that a count of intentional intentional theft of any item of any value carries a mandatory minimum one year prison sentence, and each count must be served consecutively (so someone who has shoplifted from four stores in a month must serve no less than four years), and so that strong arm robbery carries a mandatory minimum five year prison sentence.
 

A big part of the problem is the liability of stopping and detaining (or chasing outside by security or cops) suspects and the harm that can come to them or that can happen to bystanders.
 

Bail "reform" is a fine example of gov't-passed crap crime ideas.

My "Bail Fail" thread in the Law and Order forum is chock full of examples as to why Liberal bail "reform" laws are disastrous.
 
A big part of the problem is the liability of stopping and detaining (or chasing outside by security or cops) suspects and the harm that can come to them or that can happen to bystanders.
Then the laws need to be changed concerning that. Once perps decide to steal, they set the events in motion that may lead to their injury during an apprehension. They would also be responsible for bystanders getting injured, even if they dont lay a hand on anyone. Of course, the authorities would still be held to standards. There could not be any "brutality" committed on anyone. But, if a shoplifter suffered say, a broken nose or arm because they run and they have to be tackled in order to be apprehended, then that's on them.
 
That doesn't mean that there isn't way too much theft going on.

Who is supplying mere anecdotes? I linked a news story with facts.
The news story is an anecdote you've used to conclude that there is 'way too much theft' going on, when overall trends show that there is not in fact the explosion of retail theft you claim, while larceny is at some of the lowest levels it's ever been at (and overall crime is exceedingly low too).
 
Pass laws to make it so that a count of intentional intentional theft of any item of any value carries a mandatory minimum one year prison sentence

Oh, that is how it used to be.

Take California, where transitioning from "Petty Theft" was once $450, now it is $950. At $950 and above in California, theft becomes felony grand theft.

Which is equally meaningless, as they have pretty much thrown out all jail sentences for "property crimes". Hell, there have been cases of Grand Theft Auto being charged as petty theft. And people who commit 57 commercial felony burglaries being convicted, then released because it was only a property crime.

Probably the biggest impactor of the wave of crime some areas are going through was the states that threw out their "repeat offender" laws. In most states, being convicted of the same offense from 3 to 5 times in a period of time carried a mandatory jail sentence. As obviously simply fining them was not working to correct the behavior, they get to go to jail for a period of time to think on what they are doing wrong in their life. And more offenses after that will carry longer jail sentences. Throwing those out by far has had the largest impact, as can be seen in the number of people with over 50 arrests in a single year. They do not care, because they know the most that will ever happen on their 60th, 70th, and 100th arrest is just another fine. Without any threat of jail time, a great many will simply continue.

I bet if the repeat offender laws were put back in place in places like California, Chicago, Oregon, Washington, and New York, a hell of a lot of the crimes will end. Most will get smart when they hear about people doing 30-90 days for doing what they are doing, or if that is not enough to stop them than many will be sitting in jail and no longer stealing.
 

This is all known...and because of civil as well as criminal laws, you cant keep those harmed from suing in most cases (innocent and guilty). Even if they win in court, the court costs are more than settling. It's also very hard to get restitution from the convicted, in most cases, they dont have anything to take. Why dont we charge criminals for their court and prison costs now?

This is a much broader issue than just shoplifting. It's seen more now where they arent allowing cops to do high speed chases unless there's an immediate danger to the public/felony, etc.

It comes down to "what costs the least" and not placing lives over property.

So we all know those laws 'need to be changed' but apparently there are many roadblocks to doing so. You can say "it's on them" but again, the minute the potential for innocent people to get in the way is there...the ethical and financial costs are a very strong influence on any changes in laws.

Woman shoplifter gets chased by cops after driving away from store. Has accident, her 9 yr old is killed. Woman is still convicted of misdemeanor theft and misdemeanor evasion. City is sued for millions. Happened here.
 
when overall trends show that there is not in fact the explosion of retail theft you claim

There is one simple fact that most should know, and that is statistics lie.

I can give a great example in two cities right next to each other in California.

Vallejo is an absolute cesspool. The crime rates are through the roof, and even the statistics show that. However, they are also wrong in that they only show a small percentage of the truth.

Call the cops if you catch a shoplifter, 9 times out of 10 they will not even show up. Call the cops because your car was broken into, 9 times out of 10 they will not even show up. And here is the thing, crime statistics are primarily gathered from police reports. So if they do not even make and file a report 90% of the time, then their crime rates on paper are going to appear to be lower.

But then you can go right next door to Benicia. About three decades ago, both of them were about equal when it came to crime. However, in Benicia they took a firm "no tolerance" stance. There, the cops want you to call them for any little thing, even catching a shoplifter with $10 of soda. They will arrive quickly when called, and will actually arrest them most of the time. Even though they know they will only hold them for a few days before the judge releases them, the shoplifters know that so avoid that city.

On paper, Vallejo and Benicia have almost the same statistics for property crime. But in reality, in Vallejo it is much worse because almost none of the property crime is ever actually reported by the police. And the same thing in many other larger cities. Most in San Francisco also never report property crimes, because it is a waste of time. The police will likely never show up even if you do call them, so you are only going to be wasting hours of your own time waiting for them to arrive and they never will.
 
So stealing is a good thing?
 
Again, the only thing I have to say to anecdote, until we have actual numbers to support their claims, is 'cool story bro'; especially when retail venues were caught unduly leaning into theft to excuse poor performance and resulting closures. Statistics can certainly be teased and manipulated to an extent, but most of these crime numbers have been calculated effectively in much the same way for decades. Perhaps underreporting also skews things, but I would very much doubt if it masks the problem to the point we're actually looking at historic highs, even locally in the face of some of the lowest crime rates the states and country as a whole have ever known.
 
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Again, the only thing I have to say to anecdote

That is all you ever seem to say. No matter what it is, if you do not agree with it you dismiss it as an "anecdote".

And even trying to claim we are having the lowest crime rates ever is almost insanity.
 
That is all you ever seem to say. No matter what it is, if you do not agree with it you dismiss it as an "anecdote".

And even trying to claim we are having the lowest crime rates ever is almost insanity.
Because anecdote simply is not evidence of an overall trend.

Also, I didn't say we've had the 'lowest crime rates ever' alone, but 'some of'; by the numbers, they are historically quite low; here are numbers dating as far back as the 80s, as well as CA specific numbers including property crime (above and beyond the earlier stats provided RE: 2021). I'd say there's basically no chance that statistical trickery and underreporting are cumulatively masking crime rates comparable to the 80s/90s; even the early 2000s would be a stretch:



 
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Because anecdote simply is not evidence of an overall trend.

No, because you dismiss anything you do not like as anecdotal.

Case in point, you claim crime is lower now. Then to try and prove that you give us a chart of... crimes until 2020 which is before the spike started.

And giving them as a figure per population. Here is the funny thing though, most that tend to use the "per XXX people" are outright lying because that does not address the numbers of crimes. You can have an actual decrease in the "rate" per 100k people, and a huge jump in the actual number of crimes at the same time.

As I have said before, statistics are often a refuge of liars, because they know how they can be used to manipulate others.
 
No, because you dismiss anything you do not like as anecdotal.
If you want to claim anecdotes are evidence of overall trends that's on you; it is a position that is divorced from reality.

I've also given you 2021 stats.

Unfortunately 2023 stats are not out yet for obvious reasons.

As of 2022, violent crime fell nationally, and property crime incremented, but not nearly to levels that set a high water mark, or that even begin to approach the high water marks of the 80s and 90s, nor even the middling levels of the early 2000s; as a point of fact, crime remains very low as contrasted with historical rates:


As stated before, there is no way underreporting or statistical trickery are going to bridge that very considerable gap to the point we need to start raising alarm bells.
 
Do you even know what an anecdote is?
 
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