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What are your opinions on the electoral college..

my opinion is not opinion? OK

and while you may be right about why it was passed that doesn't mean I need to agree to it or I cannot point out that it has caused more problems than it fixed-same with the 16th amendment.

I didn't say you had to agree with it. You can disagree all you want. But if you think that just repealing the 17th will fix everything, it won't. It won't solve our current problems relating to federalism, it'll just bring back the old problems we had with federalism.

I doubt most people understood things. I also note that if people could have seen what has happened in the 100 or so years that it was passed (same with the 16th) they would never had allowed this nonsense to take place. same with the social security ponzi scheme.

Who can say? But I don't see why the opinions of people from 100 years ago should matter as to what we do today.
 
It wouldn't restore balance between the states. It would just give more power to the greedy state governments. There'd also be crises of representation when the state legislatures would block and deadlock appointments to Senators. Popular election of Senators didn't happen because the federal government pushed it or the citizens of states wanted to give more power to the federal government - popular election of Senators passed because state legislatures became inept due to partisan politics. This would be worse rather than better if the 17th were repealed.

Source for these claims.
 

I saw a lot of claims on the links but no source documentation to back them up. Please provide primary source documentation that shows there was widespread corruption. I was asking for a source on this part of your statement, "It would just give more power to the greedy state governments."
 
I saw a lot of claims on the links but no source documentation to back them up. Please provide primary source documentation that shows there was widespread corruption. I was asking for a source on this part of your statement, "It would just give more power to the greedy state governments."

Here is a book written in 1912 that contains some articles relating to the direct election of Senators. Many of these are transcripts from debates made from the House and Senate floor regarding the issue. Others are newspaper and magazine articles from that time.

Selected articles on the election of ... - Google Books

Page 11 mentions how state legislatures get deadlocked with regards to appointing their Senators.

Page 14 mentions that it will do away with "deadlocks, scandals, and the purchase of senatorships," and that it will "eliminate bi-partisan intrigues."

Page 56 has a speech from William Jennings Bryan that mentions it: "We know that to-day great corporations exist in our states, and that these great corporations, different from what they used to be one hundred years ago, are able to compass the election of their tools and their agents through the instrumentality of legislatures, as they could not if senators were elected directly by the people."

Page 60 mentions how the party system has spoiled the election of Senators by state legislatures. He also mentions how "In the East and Middle West it has become so common for the press of the country to charge that the senators from those states bought their seats that it has ceased to be a matter exciting public comment."

Page 63 mentions how direct election of Senators would make Senators more careful about granting subsidy bills to a particular industry but not subsidies to other industries.

Page 65 the Senator mentions a scandal from his own state and a scandal from Illinois regarding how their state legislatures appointed Senators.


On page 71, it has William Sulzer commenting on the passage of the 17th Amendment.

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
We witness to-day in the personnel of the United States Senate the supplanting of representative democracy by representative plutocracy. Here is the last bulwark of the predatory few. Here is the citadel of the unscrupulous monopolies. And more and more the special interests of the country, realizing the importance of the Senate, are combining their forces to control the election of Federal senators through their sinister influence in state legislatures.

Page 100-101 lists among several reasons why the 17th should be adopted

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
It will afford a prompt and efficient remedy for the manifest evils made possible by, and unfortunately resulting too frequently from, the present system of senatorial elections, namely, the great length of time consumed in the election and resulting frequently in a failure to choose, the consequent distraction of the legislative mind from important legislative business, and the political and personal controversies, ill feeling, and strife which are the usual - the almost inevitable - accompaniments.

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
It will render less possible, and therefore tend to the discouragement of, the use of improper means to influence the control of senatorial elections.

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
No reform movement will so effectively as this tend to the destruction of 'boss rule' and the elimination of political 'bosses' from American politics in state, county, and municipal elections.

On page 106, one article states

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
As for the nature of the choice exercised by legislators, it is utterly different from anything that the framers of the Constitution had in mind. In their plan for the election of senators, as in that for the election of the President and Vice-President, they failed to take into account the existence of organized parties. Their scheme for the indirect choice of the President and Vice-President became unworkable as soon as the party system was clearly recognized; and, owing to the circumstance that the electors had no other function that that of making this choice, there was no difficulty in nullifying the constitutional scheme. As the members of a legislature have other functions, they, of course, cannot be chosen simply as representatives of a given candidate for the senatorship; but the party system makes it impossible for them to make their choice in any such way as was contemplated by those who made the Constitution.

On page 111, another article states

Debaters Handbook Series: Election of United States Senators said:
The Illinois Legislature that sent Mr. Lorimer to the Senate was deadlocked for many weeks and unable to preform its proper duties as the law-making body of the state because of its subjection to the game played by the desperate and unscrupulous interests that were contending over the choice of a senator. There was no scandal in the election of a Governor for the State of Illinois, and if it had been left to the direct decision of the voters whether they wished to give Senator Hopkins another term or preferred somebody else, a decision would have been reached that could not have been brought into question. Lorimer would never have been a candidate before the people of the State of Illinois, for under no circumstances would they have elected him to the Senate. He has been a powerful, though often unsuccessful, political boss in Chicago, and he and his friends knew how to provide the inducements that finally broke the Hopkins deadlock and elected Lorimer. The confessions of men who had been concerned with the giving and taking of large money bribes, and the subsequent evidence developed in prosecution in the Illinois courts, have made it plain to all readers just how the thing was done.
If the people of Illinois, regardless of party, could to-day express their opinion upon the usefulness of the present method of electing United States senators, their verdict against it would be well-nigh unanimous. They have seen their legislature demoralized and held up to the score and derision of the entire country. They have seen it rendered unfit for its task of legislation by reason of undue strain and excitement over an election that the people themselves could have managed without embarrassment. They now witness the spectacle of the United States Senate diverted from its appropriate duties and engaged in a restudying of the disgusting details of the legislative corruption at Springfield. There is nothing whatever that commends the present system to the people of Illinois, and there is much that condemns it.
There are those who fall back upon the constitutional provision and declare that the plan devised by the founders of the Government is still good enough. But they forget the fact -- or choose to ignore it -- that our present way of electing senators is grotesquely different from that which the Constitution prescribes and intends. The Constitution intends, and means to prescribe, that the entire legislature, including every individual member of it, shall take part in the actual choice of a United States senator. As a matter of fact, under the existing system, a senator is usually not chosen by the legislature in any true sense. He is chosen by the party caucus of the party which has a majority of the members of the two houses of the legislature on join ballot. It is regarded, under the present system, as virtually necessary for legislators elected in the usually way on a party ticket to enter the party caucus and to abide by the result. Thus, if the legislature has 150 members, of who 76 are Democrats and 74 are Republicans, it is the almost invariable opinion of strict party men that the majority choice of the Democratic caucus ought to be promptly accepted by the entire legislature. Under this system, every one of the 74 Republican votes must be thrown away. They will be expended upon a complimentary vote for some Republican who cannot by any chance be elected. If the Democratic caucus should be closely divided between two candidates -- the one representing, as is so frequently the case, the private choice of the machine or the boss, and the other representing a decent public opinion and some regard for the traditions of statesmanship -- it is nevertheless the doctrine of the party man that if the machine candidate can be forced through the caucus by a majority of a single vote, every man who has gone into the caucus must accept the result and the man must be elected in the face of an outraged public opinion. Thus 39 men would control a legislature of 150 men.

More about William Lorimer and how allegations of bribery in the Illinois state legislature to attain the senatorship of Illinois can be found here. It is a copy of the findings of the committee tasked to investigate this corruption.

Proceedings before the Committee on ... - Google Books

The following is a link to a magazine article published in 1900 that exposes William A. Clark, a businessman who made a fortune in gold and moved to Montana to become a political boss, bribed several state legislators $10,000 for their vote in electing him Senator.

The literary digest - Google Books


The following is a link to a book of Senate election cases, and mentions how W.G. Conrad, William A. Clark's opponent for the Senate seat, paid between $5,000-$10,000 in bribes to committees of state legislators to get the Senate seat. It was written in 1913.

Compilation of Senate election cases ... - Google Books
 
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Acute problems lead to solutions that are often not the best response to long term chronic issues. Its like all the GoreBots who howled for getting rid of the Electoral College due to the 2000 election where they perceived Gore winning the popular vote*

Or the Brits banning handguns in reaction to one nutcase killing a bunch of children with a legally registered handgun in Dunblane

when a sensationalized problem leads to a reaction, the reaction is often a long term disaster



* Gore's "win" is undetermined because

1) over 3 million absentee ballots were not counted due to the respective states being called for one or the other candidates and the uncounted ABs were not enough to change it

2) massive evidence of Dem vote fraud was not investigated after Gore conceded. That includes Ohio wehre there were 73 charges of dem vote fraud including two large precincts that had gone for Clinton 60-40 in 96 (Dole lost Ohio) yet did not register a single valid vote for Bush in 2000. Joe Deters-now the Hamilton County DA noted that there was strong evidence that dem operatives had destroyed every ballot for Bush by punching out a vote for another candidate to render the ballots invalid. When Gore gave up, the task force investigating this fraud was terminated
 
I'll ignore the first book since it doesn't have a citation for those claims. The rest are good evidence and I'll accept them. Thank you for supplying them. Now my question is what is the purpose of the Senate?
 
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Pervasive voting fraud took place under the regime of Jeb! and in other states, particularly those with Diebold contracts.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

When something becomes rampant, that hardly makes it an acute problem. The repetitive nature of the problem makes a modern, effective solution a necessity, rather than a luxury.

Regards from Rosie
 
Pervasive voting fraud took place under the regime of Jeb! and in other states, particularly those with Diebold contracts.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

When something becomes rampant, that hardly makes it an acute problem. The repetitive nature of the problem makes a modern, effective solution a necessity, rather than a luxury.

Regards from Rosie

Voter fraud takes place. It happened in the past and it will happen in the future.
 
There is nothing wrong with it, and thus, there need be no change whatseover.
 
I'd prefer that the Congressional District Method, aka the Maine-Nebraska Method, be implemented nationwide. A link can be found here:
Why should we take away the plenary power of the states to determine their electors?
This is a -federal- republic of states, yes?
 
The congressional district method of awarding electoral votes (currently used in Maine and Nebraska) would not help make every vote matter.
False premise, that ANY vote should matter.
The people do not elect the President; you have no right to vote for President.
 
Doing away with electoral college would open the door for even more voter fraud
 
Doing away with electoral college would open the door for even more voter fraud

Hendrik Hertzberg wrote: "To steal the closest popular-vote election in American history, you’d have to steal more than a hundred thousand votes . . .To steal the closest electoral-vote election in American history, you’d have to steal around 500 votes, all in one state. . . .

For a national popular vote election to be as easy to switch as 2000, it would have to be two hundred times closer than the 1960 election—and, in popular-vote terms, forty times closer than 2000 itself.

Which, I ask you, is an easier mark for vote-stealers, the status quo or N.P.V.[National Popular Vote]? Which offers thieves a better shot at success for a smaller effort?"
 
So you're all for endless legal appeals on a national level when it comes to the Presidential election?

The Founding Fathers only said in the U.S. Constitution about presidential elections (only after debating among 60 ballots for choosing a method): "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all rule) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, Only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote.

In 1789 only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all rule to award electoral votes.

The winner-take-all rule is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. The current 48 state-by-state winner-take-all rule (i.e., awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in a particular state) is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, the debates of the Constitutional Convention, or the Federalist Papers. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all rule.

The constitutional wording does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for awarding the state's electoral votes.

As a result of changes in state laws enacted since 1789, the people have the right to vote for presidential electors in 100% of the states, there are no property requirements for voting in any state, and the state-by-state winner-take-all rule is used by 48 of the 50 states.
 
I guess it depends on what one truly considers Stealing. In Detroit though the poulation has taken a Nose dive there are always some questionable results, based on turnout. I would suggest that if Everyone at a given polling place is "essentially on the same page" and see's ongoing irregularities as Nothing more than "Milking the System" or "The Man" then you could City wide come up with 30,000 + that are No shows/Non existent Etc.

BTW - Florida in 2000 was not Stolen. You just reach a point where the Vote Harvesting has to stop.
 
The U.S. Constitution does not require that the election laws of all 50 states are identical in virtually every respect. State election laws are not identical now nor is there anything in the National Popular Vote compact that would force them to become identical. Indeed, the U.S. Constitution specifically permits diversity of election laws among the states because it explicitly gives the states control over the conduct of presidential elections (article II) as well as congressional elections (article I). The fact is that the Founding Fathers and the U.S. Constitution permits states to conduct elections in varied ways.

The National Popular Vote bill has passed 31 state legislative chambers, in 21 small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in Arkansas (6), Connecticut (7), Delaware (3), The District of Columbia (3), Maine (4), Michigan (17), Nevada (5), New Mexico (5), New York (31), North Carolina (15), and Oregon (7), and both houses in California (55), Colorado (9), Hawaii (4), Illinois (21), New Jersey (15), Maryland (10), Massachusetts (12), Rhode Island (4), Vermont (3), and Washington (11). The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, and Washington. These six states possess 73 electoral votes -- 27% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

See National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President
 
Under the current system of electing the President, no state requires that a presidential candidate receive anything more than the most popular votes in order to receive all of the state's electoral votes.

Not a single legislative bill has been introduced in any state legislature in recent decades (among the more than 100,000 bills that are introduced in every two-year period by the nation's 7,300 state legislators) proposing to change the existing universal practice of the states to award electoral votes to the candidate who receives a plurality (as opposed to absolute majority) of the votes (statewide or district-wide). There is no evidence of any public sentiment in favor of imposing such a requirement.

Since 1824 there have been 16 presidential elections in which a candidate was elected or reelected without gaining a majority of the popular vote. – including Lincoln (1860), Wilson (1912, and 1916), Truman (1948), Kennedy (1960), Nixon (1968), and Clinton (1992 and 1996).
 
Since 1824 there have been 16 presidential elections in which a candidate was elected or reelected without gaining a majority of the popular vote. – including Lincoln (1860), Wilson (1912, and 1916), Truman (1948), Kennedy (1960), Nixon (1968), and Clinton (1992 and 1996).
So.... what?
 
Hendrik Hertzberg wrote: "To steal the closest popular-vote election in American history, you’d have to steal more than a hundred thousand votes . . .To steal the closest electoral-vote election in American history, you’d have to steal around 500 votes, all in one state. . . .

For a national popular vote election to be as easy to switch as 2000, it would have to be two hundred times closer than the 1960 election—and, in popular-vote terms, forty times closer than 2000 itself.

Which, I ask you, is an easier mark for vote-stealers, the status quo or N.P.V.[National Popular Vote]? Which offers thieves a better shot at success for a smaller effort?"

Nice try but ACORN and the Panthers are already doing it. This would make a national election a huge Daley style Chicago election
 
Why should we take away the plenary power of the states to determine their electors?
This is a -federal- republic of states, yes?

I never said we should take away the plenary power of the states to determine their electors. I simply said that that is the method I think should be implemented nation wide. Which can be done if every state decides to implement it of their own accord.
 
Does the President represent the states or the people as originally set down in the Constitution?
 
The Founding Fathers only said in the U.S. Constitution about presidential elections (only after debating among 60 ballots for choosing a method): "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all rule) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, Only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote.

In 1789 only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all rule to award electoral votes.

The winner-take-all rule is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. The current 48 state-by-state winner-take-all rule (i.e., awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in a particular state) is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, the debates of the Constitutional Convention, or the Federalist Papers. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all rule.

The constitutional wording does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for awarding the state's electoral votes.

As a result of changes in state laws enacted since 1789, the people have the right to vote for presidential electors in 100% of the states, there are no property requirements for voting in any state, and the state-by-state winner-take-all rule is used by 48 of the 50 states.

Yeah, and I'm against the winner-take-all rule. I would rather our electoral system be Instant Run-off Voting, at least with regards to Congressmen and especially Senators. That would allow third parties to become prevalent in Congress and lead to a flourishing of third parties. And for the Presidential election, I think a ticket where the President and VP can be of two different parties is allowed. This would help in creating coalitions in Congress as well as the federal Executive.

But that's my ideal, and it's not going to happen. So a more realistic reform is the Congressional District Method for applying electoral votes.
 
I'm still waiting for a reply to my questions. What is the purpose of the Senate? Does the President represent the states or the people as originally set down in the Constitution?
 
That will also make it time for lawyers to contest elections on a national level each and every presidential election, and for hackers to screw with those elections.

It is important to note that neither the current system nor the National Popular Vote compact permits any state to get involved in judging the election returns of other states. Existing federal law (the "safe harbor" provision in section 5 of title 3 of the United States Code) specifies that a state's "final determination" of its presidential election returns is "conclusive"(if done in a timely manner and in accordance with laws that existed prior to Election Day).

The National Popular Vote compact is patterned directly after existing federal law and requires each state to treat as "conclusive" each other state's "final determination" of its vote for President. No state has any power to examine or judge the presidential election returns of any other state under the National Popular Vote compact.
 
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