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What are we trying to protect, anyway?

Jack Fabulous

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I've been paying little attention to this transgendered/bathroom issue mostly because I see it as little more than election year politics at its worst. I mean, thanks to the SCOTUS, gay marriage is now settled so I guess there needs to be something to take its place and this was the best they could come up with on short notice? Whatever the case, maybe it's about time for a reasonable discussion(if that is even possible) about what people are really trying to accomplish here.

For the "pro-transgendered"... What "laws" in place before all of this hoopla were oppressive to the transgendered and how would "new laws" rectify this situation?

For the "anti-transgendered"... What "laws" in place prior to all of the hoopla failed to protect people from predators looking to exploit loopholes and how would "new laws" rectify the situation?



Finally, for everyone... Why do we need to change anything at all?
 

MrT

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For the "pro-transgendered"... What "laws" in place before all of this hoopla were oppressive to the transgendered and how would "new laws" rectify this situation?

Finally, for everyone... Why do we need to change anything at all?

As you noted, with gay and lesbian rights coming into their own in a big way over the past couple of years, it stands to reason that the rest of the groups involved in the LGBT community would start to focus their attention on other issues that have always existed within that community.

One of those is the usage of bathrooms which, objectively, for the transgendered community has always been a bit of a sore spot because while they may publicly and privately identify as a certain gender, there is still a societal pressure and expectation that they ignore those deeply held beliefs in order to use a bathroom that society expects them to keep using. Understandably, it is an issue that has caused a great deal of consternation for these individuals. And there were already lawsuits making their way through the courts on this topic as well that has helped to propel the topic further into the public realm.

As for changing the laws, I don't see a need to change any laws (unless, of course, a state imposes laws specifically to ban the action). It's just a matter of making the public aware of the potential conflict so that when a transgendered individual first appears in the bathroom, you don't call the police. It should be more accurately phrased a change of policy or just a change of public perception.
 

Jack Fabulous

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As you noted, with gay and lesbian rights coming into their own in a big way over the past couple of years, it stands to reason that the rest of the groups involved in the LGBT community would start to focus their attention on other issues that have always existed within that community.

One of those is the usage of bathrooms which, objectively, for the transgendered community has always been a bit of a sore spot because while they may publicly and privately identify as a certain gender, there is still a societal pressure and expectation that they ignore those deeply held beliefs in order to use a bathroom that society expects them to keep using. Understandably, it is an issue that has caused a great deal of consternation for these individuals. And there were already lawsuits making their way through the courts on this topic as well that has helped to propel the topic further into the public realm.

As for changing the laws, I don't see a need to change any laws (unless, of course, a state imposes laws specifically to ban the action). It's just a matter of making the public aware of the potential conflict so that when a transgendered individual first appears in the bathroom, you don't call the police. It should be more accurately phrased a change of policy or just a change of public perception.
The part in bold is kind of what I'm getting at. What does the law say right now about this? I don't even know.
 

MrT

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The part in bold is kind of what I'm getting at. What does the law say right now about this? I don't even know.

With the caveat of noting that all states and municipalities and individual organizations may have something different on the books, my understanding is that most simply address the issue by requiring that a person use the bathroom that corresponds with their sex. The problem with that issue is that the term "sex" is usually not defined and relies on a collective understanding that many are currently trying to change.

Some states and organizations, like North Carolina, are trying to define "sex" as the "gender you were declared at the time of your birth," while others, including the Obama administration, are trying to define "sex" as the "gender with which you identify based on a deeply held belief."
 

Jack Fabulous

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With the caveat of noting that all states and municipalities and individual organizations may have something different on the books, my understanding is that most simply address the issue by requiring that a person use the bathroom that corresponds with their sex. The problem with that issue is that the term "sex" is usually not defined and relies on a collective understanding that many are currently trying to change.

Some states and organizations, like North Carolina, are trying to define "sex" as the "gender you were declared at the time of your birth," while others, including the Obama administration, are trying to define "sex" as the "gender with which you identify based on a deeply held belief."

It seems to me that by trying to arrive at a definition we are creating a problem where one really doesn't even exist.

There are biological men who naturally look like women. There are biological women who naturally look like men. There are biological members of both sexes trying to look like the opposite sex through artificial means. How in the hell are we ever going to come up with a one-size-fits-all definition and corresponding law that would cover the countless scenarios at play here? The short answer is we can't. My solution is why try? If there was ever a time or an issue for the government to just step back and say... "I think we should just let society deal with this one", this is it.

There are already a multitude of harassment, disorderly conduct, indecent exposure, etc... laws on the books to protect people. IMO, ANYTHING additional done in this case is going to create a hornets nest of problems that currently do not exist. I would urge both sides of this to just let it go.
 

Jack Fabulous

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tres borrachos

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I've been paying little attention to this transgendered/bathroom issue mostly because I see it as little more than election year politics at its worst. I mean, thanks to the SCOTUS, gay marriage is now settled so I guess there needs to be something to take its place and this was the best they could come up with on short notice? Whatever the case, maybe it's about time for a reasonable discussion(if that is even possible) about what people are really trying to accomplish here.

For the "pro-transgendered"... What "laws" in place before all of this hoopla were oppressive to the transgendered and how would "new laws" rectify this situation?

For the "anti-transgendered"... What "laws" in place prior to all of the hoopla failed to protect people from predators looking to exploit loopholes and how would "new laws" rectify the situation?



Finally, for everyone... Why do we need to change anything at all?

I agree it may be time for a reasonable discussion, Jack. What I still can't wrap my head around is the fact that with all of the problems in this country today, we actually are constantly having a discussion about public ****ing bathrooms. Public bathrooms, for dog's sake.
 

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Ahh.............the slippery slope of "self identification of gender" & "bathroom laws"

What could possibly go wrong?
 
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