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What are we doing?

vandree

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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/29/opinion/29hochschild.html?


Someone needs to stop these people. We say how evil the terrorists are for targeting women and children, but are we any better when we imprison children, put them in isolation and torture them?

A few quotes from the article:

we don't know exactly how many Iraqi children are in American custody. But before the transfer of sovereignty from the Coalition Provisional Authority to an Iraqi interim government a year ago, the International Committee of the Red Cross reported registering 107 detainees under 18 during visits to six prisons controlled by coalition troops. Some detainees were as young as 8.
What can an 8 years old have done? I doubt he/she has any info to offer

Juvenile detainees in American facilities like Abu Ghraib and Bagram Air Base have been subject to the same mistreatment as adults. The International Red Cross, Amnesty International and the Pentagon itself have gathered substantial testimony of torture of children, bolstered by accounts from soldiers who witnessed or participated in the abuse.

A Canadian, Omar Khadr, was 15 in 2002 when he was captured in Afghanistan and interned at Guantánamo. For 2½ years, he was allowed no contact with a lawyer or with his family. Seventeen-year-old Akhtar Mohammed told Amnesty that he was kept in solitary confinement in a shipping container for eight days in Afghanistan in January 2002.


Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, formerly in charge of Abu Ghraib, told Maj. General Fay about visiting a weeping 11-year-old detainee in the prison's notorious Cellblock 1B, which housed prisoners designated high risk. "He told me he was almost 12," General Karpinski recalled, and that "he really wanted to see his mother, could he please call his mother."

Children like this 11 year old held at Abu Ghraib have been denied the right to see their parents, a lawyer, or anyone else. They were not told why they were detained, let alone for how long. A Pentagon spokesman told Mr. Hersh that juveniles received some special care, but added, "Age is not a determining factor in detention." The United States has found, the spokesman said, that "age does not necessarily diminish threat potential."

Are these people human?
 

FiremanRyan

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thousands of children are being slaughtered in Africa and you're posting about us putting a couple in jail?
 

MikeyC

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FiremanRyan said:
thousands of children are being slaughtered in Africa and you're posting about us putting a couple in jail?
Of course, because it's us and we have much greater control over that. I'm intolerant of all injustices, but especially those committed by my own countrymen.
 

Schweddy

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Here in the US we try many children as adults that commit violent crimes - why should the nationality differ?

Juvenile detainees in American facilities like Abu Ghraib and Bagram Air Base have been subject to the same mistreatment as adults.


Those attrocities have been dealt with, but simply being ignored by the media. This is stated as though that mistreatment is still going on.

 

ShamMol

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vauge said:
Here in the US we try many children as adults that commit violent crimes - why should the nationality differ?



Those attrocities have been dealt with, but simply being ignored by the media. This is stated as though that mistreatment is still going on.

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Ah, take this article with a grain of salt as it was in the op-ed section of the NY Times, which I acutally bought for once. It is a very interesting article which you should read all of. I believe that the attrocities or whatever was said was being done before the scandal broke and now the attrocity is that they are even in there at all (which frankly is up to debate).

I don't see how holding eight year olds is effective though on the war on terror...and plus it is illegal to hold them the way they are being held...but wait, it is not illegal for us (even though we have a policy that they are children up to 16 and not the internation standard of 18). Yes, it is not, because we never ratified that treaty because that would make executing minors illegal...ain't it about time to ratify the treaty now...or is there another reason...like holding eight year olds with adults.
 

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The whole problem is that there is no due process involved with these detainees. Haven't we progressed far enough as a society that we can agree, regardless of political affiliation, that there must be some coherent way to determine whether an accused individual is guilty, whether there is substantial evidence against them? Obviously not. I just hope that we as Americans don't mind when the ways we have let the legal system fail result in us being arrested and tortured for no coherent reason, or without justification, or for being of the political opposition. When we do not apply these protections to certain cases, we are one step closer to having them eliminated al together.
 

stsburns

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Um... one of the detainies ended up back on the battlefield fireing on our troops, why should I sempathize with them! :roll:
 

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stsburns said:
Um... one of the detainies ended up back on the battlefield fireing on our troops, why should I sempathize with them! :roll:
So if a person is released from prison and commits another crime, we shouldn't allow prisoners to have a trial and we should torture the ones in prison?
 

Simon W. Moon

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FiremanRyan said:
thousands of children are being slaughtered in Africa and you're posting about us putting a couple in jail?
Why should you care if I beat the **** out of your kid with an aluminum baseball bat? There're kids being killed in Africa.
Why should you care about anything when there're worse things going on somewhere else?

Does this line of reasoning really make sense to you?
 

MSgt

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The trumped up, over inflated, wishful thinking, and accusations of the Torture soap box has gotten old. First the oil BS and now torture BS. What's next....is our ammo casings from spent rounds littering the beautiful deserts of Iraq?

Children are as dangerous as the adults. Children are used by terrorist, and any of our enemy for that matter, to carry explosives, because we have the tendency to trust children to do no harm. While there are American parents that teach their children about weapons for their safety and how to fire them, teaching children how to fire AK-47s and how to kill is the norm amongst militant Islamist in the Middle East. The burden of responsibility for making their children combatants falls on their shoulders. Just like their protected mosques, once they run in and shoot from the windows, it is a target. We respect their children and mosques until they desecrate them and force us to defend ourselves.
 

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I can tell the difference in torture and interrogating. I can also tell the difference between murder and killing in defense.

I don't litter.

All those people that are on the oil bandwagon, I'm sure, scream so loudly about it as they are filling their tanks at the gas stations with gas that more than likely did not even come from the Middle East.

Nobody is being tortured. Especially some 8 year old. You aren't doing your country any good by rallying behind those that would weaken it by spreading lies, hearsay, and exxagerations.
 
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MSgt

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The FBI admitted to what they thought was torture. Not to what it actually was-And what it was was isolated and discipline followed. Their rules and tactics of interrogation are tamed by the U.S. civil law. Interrogating a prisoner to give up information about some drugs and his colleagues is quite a bit different than interrogating a POW that has information that will save fellow troop lives by giving us his colleagues so that we can go kill them.
 

ShamMol

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stsburns said:
Um... one of the detainies ended up back on the battlefield fireing on our troops, why should I sempathize with them! :roll:
You shouldn't, but you should also realize that something like 95% of all the people we detain in Iraq are let go cause we got nothing on them. Don't feel sympathy (except for the children swept up and put in with adults...which is by the way...illegal!), feel the need to see that justice is done.
 

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From what I've read it seems that the best info that the interrogators get comes from slip ups when the prisoner is comfortable, not just s*** they're screaming to make the pain stop.


This is more of that garbage I was talking about. The best info is info we get on the battle field when the prisoner is scared. You develop a relationship with them to where they just give information freely. The relationship is treated much the same way in the prison camps, however, they have more time to develop this relationship. Our interrogations are very phsycological. "Screaming because of the pain" is very dramatic, but should be left in the movies you've seen or in foreign prisons where it actually occurs.

Obviously it is a dead issue and way over blown, because the media and Democrats have moved on to scour for the next splinter that they can use to trip us up.
 
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Simon W. Moon

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I urge you all not to forget that the threshold for torture has been moved recently. The traditional definition of torture no longer applies. Many horrific acts are no longer considered torture under the new definition since they don't rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function."

Electrodes on the genitals- no longer torture.
Bamboo under the fingernails- no longer torture.
Thumbscrews- no longer torture
Electrical shocks- no longer torture
Red-hot irons- no longer torture
Beatings- no longer torture


Given the new, improved definition of torture, I doubt if there's much torture going on.

Some of us more old-fashioned folks are taken aback at what's no longer torture but now merely abuse.
 

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I am a little surprised by the response to this article and that some people try to justify the torture of children. Maybe those people didn't read the entire article where it says that 90% of those children have done nothing wrong, but are swept up with their parents in nighttime dragnets .

GySgt, I don't mean any disrespect but either you are in denial or your head is buried in the sand and you refuse to see what's going on.

Why don't you give us some evidence, some facts to support your statements, because so far your statements are hearsay :roll:
 

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OK. I will put 13 years of experience against Somali prisoners, Iraqi prisoners, Haitian prisoners, Cuban prisoners, Syrian prisoners, and Iranian prisoners on a piece of paper and post it on the Internet. Maybe that will make it official enough and not "hearsay". I don't need to support anything I say. I am not a liar and I am not the accuser. Apparantly there isn't any "PROOF" of the allegations. The media and Democrates has moved on. Hmmmm, where have we seen this before? It wouldn't matter anyway. You want so badly to believe anything that would undermine anything that has to do with this war or any other war. It's almost like you are all praying that it's true for some sick, twisted, and pathetic sense of victory. "Hearsay" is what is going on with this site. Embellished stories, isolated incidents, and exxagerations. Why don't you just acknowledge what some Democrats have and move on from making something out of nothing.

Electrodes on the genitals- no longer torture.
Bamboo under the fingernails- no longer torture.
Thumbscrews- no longer torture
Electrical shocks- no longer torture
Red-hot irons- no longer torture
Beatings- no longer torture


Perhaps you should re read what you saw on that document that has nothing to do with the Military. Whatever the CIA does is CIA business. NOT Miltary. None of this happens. No children get "tortured" either. It's hard to bury yourself in the sand when you are faced with it every deployment. It's you all that have your heads buried in the sand and have followed along like sheep behind later apologetic Democrats for his exxagerations and persuasions and foreign haters that would disrupt any attempt to get to the end of this.

By the way, how's your freedom?
 
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Simon W. Moon

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GySgt said:
Perhaps you should re read what you saw on that document that has nothing to do with the Military. Whatever the CIA does is CIA business. NOT Miltary.
The document describes how to interpret US laws and treaties the US is party to.
 

MSgt

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Like I said, it's got nothing to do with us. It is a generic paper and the CIA can do with it what they like. The Marines have a very high standard. Since it is the Army that continues to embarras, I will not speak for them. I will say that "torture" is not a practice that is cponducted or sanctioned throughout the military.
 
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vandree

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By the way, how's your freedom?
My freedom was doing a lot better before GW Bush got into office. :roll:

Let's get things straight here: I would like to believe that there was no torture going on. To me America has always been a symbol for freedom, justice and human rights. The iimage I have of the US soldiers is the one my mom experienced during WWII: it is the image of them liberating the city and giving all the kids chocolate and candies. So I really don't want to believe that torture has become an accepted practice, but the evidence is overwhelming!

To me the fact that there are so many pictures of soldiers posing with detainees and smiling is very telling. That alone shows you that torture was not limited only to a few "bad" individuals: obviously the soldiers who took the pictures did not fear any repercussion from their behavior.

But anyway I didn't mean to imply you were lying, maybe the problem is the definition of 'torture'.

"The Convention against Torture defines torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession…." (Art. 1). It may be "inflicted by or at the instigation of or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

The prohibition against torture under international law applies to many measures—e.g. beating on the soles of the feet; electric shock applied to genitals and nipples; rape; near drowning through submersion in water; near suffocation by plastic bags tied around the head; burning; whipping; needles inserted under fingernails; mutilation; hanging by feet or hands for prolonged periods.

International law also prohibits mistreatment that does not meet the definition of torture, either because less severe physical or mental pain is inflicted, or because the necessary purpose of the ill-treatment is not present. It affirms the right of every person not to be subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

The prohibition against torture as well as cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment is not limited to acts causing physical pain or injury. It includes acts that cause mental suffering—e.g. through threats against family or loved ones. "
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/TortureQandA.htm#What


Would you agree that the techniques used by the interrogators at Guantanamo, Abu Graib and Afghanistan fit the definition of torture?

Now let's see if all this talk about torture is an exageration..

First there are the pictures (Warning: some other photos and videos in this site are very graphic);

More pictures ;

Some more ;

who is responsible for the torture ;

no children are tortured? ;

Army and Navy, investigations of detainee abuse in Iraq ;

Defense Department Documents

FBI e-mails of agents witnessing "torture techniques

Defense Intelligence Agency, State Department and FBI detainee abuse by Task Force 626, e-mails express concern about interrogation methods.

More torture documents

Afghanistan: Shebergan-prisoners ; video/documentary .

Afghan prisoner beat to death ;

Afghan detainees' deaths ruled homicides


Still sure it is all an exageration?
 

MSgt

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Once again, you flaunt isolated Abu Ghraib, which wasn't torture, just one of many humiliating acts for the Army National Guard Reserve (if they can feel such an emotion). If you are going to cry about anything it should be with the rest of us about why they are even in Iraq fouling everything up. :roll:

Other pictures were of soldiers interrogating a prisoner. Again, I see no torture. Investigations into deaths that also involved prison riots or self defense is also a leap to torture. What you read is the investigations and allegations. The media never follows up when it doesn't pan out for them. I guess that doesn't stop some of you from creating your own conclusions. You're not interested in fact - Just stories. :roll:

You are on a high horse and angry about BS that has been escalated by politicians and byparty green weenies. Nothing credible here. Just accusations and over zealous attempts to undermine by pointing out age old practices of interrogation. By thinking what you see is torture, you are just prooving how weak some of America's resolve is. :roll:

Again with the dramatics? Your "freedoms" are just fine. Iraq is more about protecting your house and family from airplanes crashing into it. I guess as long as your house continues to stand and your family is unharmed, it shouldn't matter what happens to some one else. :roll:
 
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MSgt

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"You say that as long as MY house is standing, I shouldn't care about what happens to anyone else."

I was being sarcastic.

Is there anyone here that was directly affected by 9/11 and any other terrorist attack, a hostage, beheading, etc.....If not, maybe your opinions hold less weight than the American civillians and military personnel who have been affected and have seen it up close.


Being arfraid to fight back for fear of them getting "mad" is a cowards path. It's the path of the European (WWI, WWII, Bosnia). Maybe you should re-bury your head and pretend that our country is protected by pascifists and continue your naive little life in protected USA and leave the dirty work that you can't stomach to us. The truth of terrorism is that the only way to get rid of them is to completely obliterate the Islamists of the Middle East. Of course, we can't just do something like that, because of the majority of Muslims in that region do not want to be involved with this Islamist BS. The next best thing is sparking Democracy. After 50+ years of tolerating and saying no-no, terrorism only escalated to 9/11.
 

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Nope.

It started here: 1949

We didn't start any of this. We just waited too long to retaliate. Perhaps if we did something decisive back when Iran held American lives hostage for 444 days, we wouldn't be in this mess today. But, like most everything before 9/11, we did nothing and relied on failed diplomacies. I wish diplomacy worked with these people. I don't really care to go back to Iraq next year, but these people know nothing but violence.
 
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MSgt

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No.....1949 was the year the UK decided to make Israel a nation and the UN approved. America, sympathetic to Hitler's quest of genocide, declared Israel protected. The very next day, Muslims from everywhere attacked Israel. We started nothing.

And who cares about ******* off the Middle East? If we wanted we could just roll right through every one of those countries. It would hardly fix the problem though. Ideology and Democracy is the only fix. Their oppressed people need to be less subjected to the lies and BS of their clerics and puppet masters. What is your great idea to fix this, without leaving Israel to the wolves?
 
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ShamMol

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GySgt said:
And who cares about ******* off the Middle East? If we wanted we could just roll right through every one of those countries. It would hardly fix the problem though. Ideology and Democracy is the only fix. Their oppressed people need to be less subjected to the lies and BS of their clerics and puppet masters. What is your great idea to fix this, without leaving Israel to the wolves?
Yet when liberals say they want to change the idealogy and the first step to that is understanding the region, we are attacked as being sympathetic and wanting to give them therapy. So, are we right? I don't think Democracy is the only fix (considering we aren't even in a democracy as it should be...we are in a Republic), there are other options. The problem is that the people don't feel opressed and a lot of them believe that as you put it "BS" due to their strong religious beliefs. How do you propose we change those views.
 
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