• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What Are A Student's Chances Of Being Shot?

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
9,730
Reaction score
2,326
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Liberals and gun haters love to say all this phoney baloney about how in this day and age being in school is more dangerous than being in a war zone. Well its exactly that, phoney baloney. One of the worst school shootings in recent history is the Sandy Hook shooting in which 27 people were killed not including the shooter. Every year over 56 million students attend school grades K-12 so exactly what are your chances of you being shot if you go to school or your children's chances of being shot if they go to school? Very very very small. The thing is, when school shootings do happen it becomes a headline, a top story in the news, so it makes it seem that its much more common and much more likely to happen than it does. You have a much better chance dying in a school bus crash being driven to or from school.
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Liberals and gun haters love to say all this phoney baloney about how in this day and age being in school is more dangerous than being in a war zone. Well its exactly that, phoney baloney. One of the worst school shootings in recent history is the Sandy Hook shooting in which 27 people were killed not including the shooter. Every year over 56 million students attend school grades K-12 so exactly what are your chances of you being shot if you go to school or your children's chances of being shot if they go to school? Very very very small. The thing is, when school shootings do happen it becomes a headline, a top story in the news, so it makes it seem that its much more common and much more likely to happen than it does. You have a much better chance dying in a school bus crash being driven to or from school.

Since Columbine, there have been 34 K-12 children killed at school in a mass shooting by a shooter armed with an "assault weapon". Since Columbine, there have been just over 100 K-12 students murdered at school by a shooter with any firearm. Consider those numbers with the possible chances - we have 50 million K-12 kids in 130,000 schools that meet 180 days a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

From 2003-2012, a time period shorter than above, we've had 174 K-12 kids killed in school transportation related traffic accidents.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811890

Kids are in more danger getting to school, going on field trips and getting home from school than they are from a shooter at school.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
so exactly what are your chances of you being shot if you go to school or your children's chances of being shot if they go to school? The thing is when school shootings do happen it becomes a headline, a top story in the news, so it makes it seem that it's much more common and much more likely to happen than it does.
What are the odds you will ever require the usage of an AR-15 or any other gun for your own personal protection?

It's about more than just YOUR odds of getting shot. Just have a shooting take place at your school can be a traumatic experience even if you're not one of the kids shot. Odds are good you will know one of the victims. Maybe a favorite teacher. That can have long-lasting psychological effects on a child.

So far in 2018, there have been 23 school shootings in 21 weeks of school. Not 23 victims, 23 shootings with at least one victim. A child goes to school for 13 years. There are approximately 36 weeks in a school year. That puts us at about 40 shootings over 13 years. So during the time you spend in school, there will be 520 school shootings many of which will have multiple casualties. There are 98,817 public schools in the United States. That puts us at a 0.5% or approximately 1 out of every 200 schools in the nation that will experience a school shooting in a 13-year span that you're in school.

You want to send your kids to school with a 1 in 200 chance there will be a crazy gunman running around at some point?

You have a much better chance dying in a school bus crash being driven to or from school.

Which is why there's a whole bunch of regulations dealing with how to drive around school buses and schools when it is in session. We also make sure that school bus drivers are trained to handle a large bus, and have clean driving records before we let them get behind the wheel.
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
What are the odds you will ever require the usage of an AR-15 or any other gun for your own personal protection?

It's about more than just YOUR odds of getting shot. Just have a shooting take place at your school can be a traumatic experience even if you're not one of the kids shot. Odds are good you will know one of the victims. Maybe a favorite teacher. That can have long-lasting psychological effects on a child.

So far in 2018, there have been 23 school shootings in 21 weeks of school. Not 23 victims, 23 shootings with at least one victim. A child goes to school for 13 years. There are approximately 36 weeks in a school year. That puts us at about 40 shootings over 13 years. So during the time you spend in school, there will be 520 school shootings many of which will have multiple casualties. There are 98,817 public schools in the United States. That puts us at a 0.5% or approximately 1 out of every 200 schools in the nation that will experience a school shooting in a 13-year span that you're in school.

There are 130,000 K-12 public and private schools that meet 180 times per year. In 2018, that's 23,400,000 days of chances. In 2018, there were 26 shootings on a K-12 campus. 26/23,400,000 represents a very small chance of being at school each day when a shooting happens. Of those 26 shootings, 17 had zero deaths. There have been 31 deaths of K-12 students resulting from a shooting in a K-12 school. We average 2,600 K-12 deaths in auto accidents every year. Shooting deaths at school have about 1/100 the chance of a K-12 child dying in a car wreck. Does any hesitate to toss their little darlings into the car every day?

The modal number of dead in a school shooting is 0. The modal number of wounded is 1


You want to send your kids to school with a 1 in 200 chance there will be a crazy gunman running around at some point?

100 times the chance they'll die in a car wrech over that same time period.

Which is why there's a whole bunch of regulations dealing with how to drive around school buses and schools when it is in session. We also make sure that school bus drivers are trained to handle a large bus, and have clean driving records before we let them get behind the wheel.

We have strict rules on bringing guns to school, too, yet it still happens, and school-related transportation still kills more kids every year than a shooter at their school does.
 

Altailites

New member
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
10
Reaction score
3
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Mathematically, the probability is very low (calculated with more variables than just prior instances/data.)

There's a lot to consider when determining a realistic answer to this question. There is actually a higher probability of falling victim to gun violence OUTSIDE of school grounds. I would not be afraid of sending my children to school unless there was a valid reason to be.
 

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
9,730
Reaction score
2,326
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
What are the odds you will ever require the usage of an AR-15 or any other gun for your own personal protection?
Close to nil and hopefully I never will have to use an AR-15 or any gun for personal protection but its always good to have insurance. Hopefully I will never have to use fire, medical, or liability insurance but all those things are good to have.

It's about more than just YOUR odds of getting shot. Just have a shooting take place at your school can be a traumatic experience even if you're not one of the kids shot. Odds are good you will know one of the victims. Maybe a favorite teacher. That can have long-lasting psychological effects on a child.
And there are over 100,000 schools in the country. The chances of even going to a school when or where a shooting happens is less than the chances of being in a car crash.

So far in 2018, there have been 23 school shootings in 21 weeks of school. Not 23 victims, 23 shootings with at least one victim. A child goes to school for 13 years. There are approximately 36 weeks in a school year. That puts us at about 40 shootings over 13 years. So during the time you spend in school, there will be 520 school shootings many of which will have multiple casualties. There are 98,817 public schools in the United States. That puts us at a 0.5% or approximately 1 out of every 200 schools in the nation that will experience a school shooting in a 13-year span that you're in school.
There are over 100,000 schools when you add in private schools. Lots of students go to private school. So like I said the chances of even experiencing a school shooting is very small.

You want to send your kids to school with a 1 in 200 chance there will be a crazy gunman running around at some point?
I wouldn't want to but sometimes stuff like that happens in life, that's why I would want any school I go to, or any children of mine go to, to have armed security.

Which is why there's a whole bunch of regulations dealing with how to drive around school buses and schools when it is in session. We also make sure that school bus drivers are trained to handle a large bus, and have clean driving records before we let them get behind the wheel.
I never did take the bus except for field trips. Usually my mom or dad would drive me to and from school or during the time I was going to a school that was close to home I would walk. When I was old enough I would drive myself. I had a better chance of being killed going to and from school than of being shot at school.
And there are regulations when it comes to guns and schools just as there's regulations with school busses, usually the regulation is that guns aren't allowed at schools, doesn't stop the shooters.
 

Rich2018

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
37,812
Reaction score
3,311
Location
Norcross, Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Since Columbine, there have been 34 K-12 children killed at school in a mass shooting by a shooter armed with an "assault weapon". Since Columbine, there have been just over 100 K-12 students murdered at school by a shooter with any firearm. Consider those numbers with the possible chances - we have 50 million K-12 kids in 130,000 schools that meet 180 days a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

From 2003-2012, a time period shorter than above, we've had 174 K-12 kids killed in school transportation related traffic accidents.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811890

Kids are in more danger getting to school, going on field trips and getting home from school than they are from a shooter at school.



So, a death rate well within the "acceptable zone".
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
So, a death rate well within the "acceptable zone".

No one had said the death rate was "acceptable". I did note the relative risk of school shooting deaths - it pales in comparison to almost any other form of death to a child. There have been 18,000 motor traffic related deaths for K-12 age children since 2010, and no real changes in legislation to reduce that number. If you're scare of a gunman at your child's school, but you aren't afraid of putting your child in a car, or letting them walk on the sidewalk, or ride their bikes on the sidewalks and streets, you're just stupid. If you're afraid of your child being shot at school, but you leave them alone at home with easy access to ropes or belts, you're just stupid.
 

Rich2018

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
37,812
Reaction score
3,311
Location
Norcross, Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
No one had said the death rate was "acceptable".....

So if it's not acceptable, what do we do ?

Arm the teachers as has been suggested ?

Extend the TSA's role to screen all people entering a school ?

or ban guns ?
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
So if it's not acceptable, what do we do ?

Arm the teachers as has been suggested ?

Extend the TSA's role to screen all people entering a school ?

or ban guns ?

My suggestion to reduce mass shootings like active/school shooter and domestic violence looks at three actions: prevention, isolation, intervention.


Prevention is the process to reduce the chance that a shooter will have a firearm in the first place. It's easier for DV than for active shooters, as the Lautenberg Amendment can be used to disarm anyone convicted of domestic violence or with a personal protective order sworn against them preemptively or actively. For Lautenberg to be effective, we need to educate potential victims, their legal support and local law enforcement. Potential active shooters don't have that history and with HIPAA restrictions find it easier to pass background checks. Prevention against rampage shooters is much less effective.



Isolation is the action of keeping a shooter separated from his victims. For DV, removal of the family to a safe house is the primary tool, unless the DV offender commits another crime or is caught violating a PPO before any homicide attempts occur, when he can be arrested. For active shooters, limiting access to schools or other targeted areas via channelized entry, metal detectors and similar passive measures are the first step. Being able to effectively lock down classrooms and other sub-geographies is also necessary.




Sometimes none of these work, or the area under attack isn't conducive to isolation, and that's where intervention is important. The FBI teaches Run, Hide, Fight when thrust into an active shooter situation, and data shows that the best way to fight is with a firearm. The current strategy of limiting ammunition magazine capacity to force reloads where the shooter can be physically restrained is untenable and hasn't been shown to be effective as an active response with a firearm. It suffers from fatal flaws: that the pool of potential victims includes someone that is brave enough to physically attack the shooter, that the brave person isn't among the first shot, that he or she is lucky enough to be in a close enough position during a reload and that he or she is physically capable of restraining a shooter. The biggest flaw, however, is that this tactic requires at least 10 shots to be fired with up to ten dead victims before there is a chance to stop the shooter. We've seen with both the Uber driver and Philly barbershop that CCW holders are not so restrained and can act quickly and effectively enough to stop a shooter with no innocent lives lost.
 

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
9,730
Reaction score
2,326
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
9,730
Reaction score
2,326
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
I did note the relative risk of school shooting deaths - it pales in comparison to almost any other form of death to a child. There have been 18,000 motor traffic related deaths for K-12 age children since 2010, and no real changes in legislation to reduce that number. If you're scare of a gunman at your child's school, but you aren't afraid of putting your child in a car, or letting them walk on the sidewalk, or ride their bikes on the sidewalks and streets, you're just stupid. If you're afraid of your child being shot at school, but you leave them alone at home with easy access to ropes or belts, you're just stupid.
Rich2018 has dodged these points.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
There are over 100,000 schools when you add in private schools. Lots of students go to private school. So like I said the chances of even experiencing a school shooting is very small.
the extra 2000 or so schools you added with private schools does not meaningfully change the math. If you are a child in America you have a 1 in 200 chance that a school shooting will happen at the school you're attending during your time in the education system. That's actually a pretty high number.

I wouldn't want to but sometimes stuff like that happens in life, that's why I would want any school I go to, or any children of mine go to, to have armed security.
So you're basically admitting that liberals like me are right and we do in fact need to take steps to better protect children from school shootings and gun violence you just want a different solution that won't require you to make a trivial sacrifice of any kind.

I never did take the bus except for field trips. Usually, my mom or dad would drive me to and from school or during the time I was going to a school that was close to home, I would walk. When I was old enough I would drive myself. I had a better chance of being killed going to and from school than of being shot at school.
Irrelevant. The point is that we do in fact have regulations in an effort to reduce the likelihood of a tragedy and you know damn well they're worth having.

And there are regulations when it comes to guns and schools just as there are regulations with school buses, usually, the regulation is that guns aren't allowed at schools, doesn't stop the shooters.

Of course. Trying to stop an armed gunman from entering a school is about as futile and pointless as trying to prevent illegal immigration. That's why if you want to have any hope of preventing things you have to try and stop the guns from getting into the hands of these **** heads in the first place. Given that most of the weapons used in these tragedies are manufactured and sold right here in America we should at least be able to put a dent in the problem if not solve the problem.

We are literally the only nation on earth where this type of thing regularly happens. To pretend nothing can be done about it is nonsensically stupid.
 

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
9,730
Reaction score
2,326
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
the extra 2000 or so schools you added with private schools does not meaningfully change the math. If you are a child in America you have a 1 in 200 chance that a school shooting will happen at the school you're attending during your time in the education system. That's actually a pretty high number.
As Rucker pointed out in post #4 there is quite a bit more than an extra 2000 schools when you add in private schools and it does meaningfully change the math.

So you're basically admitting that liberals like me are right and we do in fact need to take steps to better protect children from school shootings and gun violence you just want a different solution that won't require you to make a trivial sacrifice of any kind.
I believe we all want to protect children from not just gun violence but all violence and doing so should not require any sacrifice, just a little extra work.

Of course. Trying to stop an armed gunman from entering a school is about as futile and pointless as trying to prevent illegal immigration.
If that's the case than stopping armed gunmen should be quite effective as we are right now effectively stopping illegal immigration, ever since Trump took office. He is doing a particularly good job at stopping migrants from the caravan in Mexico from illegally crossing into the USA although we really do need a good wall as he as pointed out.
If we had armed security at schools it would do a really good job at stopping armed gunmen from entering the schools.

That's why if you want to have any hope of preventing things you have to try and stop the guns from getting into the hands of these **** heads in the first place. Given that most of the weapons used in these tragedies are manufactured and sold right here in America we should at least be able to put a dent in the problem if not solve the problem.
You are right that most guns used in the USA are manufactured in the USA. Unlike drugs, which are often grown from plants that require specific climates, you don't need a specific climate to manufacture guns. So making more gun regulations would be pointless as people would just start manufacturing their own guns since they don't need to be imported.

We should be able to solve the problem, like I said, armed security at schools. Armed security would shoot the ****heads who target the schools and in doing so prevent them from using guns, or anything else, to harm innocent people.

We are literally the only nation on earth where this type of thing regularly happens.
It happens in other nations too, not so much with guns but with other means such as bombs and trucks, and it does happen with guns too in other nations.

To pretend nothing can be done about it is nonsensically stupid.
I never implied that and if you think I did than you haven't been reading my posts.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
In 2018, that's 23,400,000 days of chances.
Kids don't go to school 1 day per year. They generally go for almost all of them. Your lying with statistics. Stop.

Shooting deaths at school have about 1/100 the chance of a K-12 child dying in a car wreck. Does any hesitate to toss their little darlings into the car every day?
Automobiles are an absolute necessity for modern life. Without question, the benefits of automobiles radically outweigh the risks. Guns, on the other hand, provide little or no benefit to the average person on an average day. It is at best debatable whether or not the so-called benefits of gun ownership outweigh risk and the dangers. To compare cars with guns is nonsensically stupid.

We have strict rules on bringing guns to school, too, yet it still happens, and school-related transportation still kills more kids every year than a shooter at their school does.
Perfections should never be the enemy of the good. The failure to completely eliminate a problem entirely is not an excuse to prevent an attempt to try and improve things. Traffic laws may not completely eliminate traffic accidents, but only a delusional nut job would attempt to argue they provide no benefit at all. Your desire to drive drunk or do 80 mph past a school do not outweigh children's lives. Your desire to make a pumpkin explode with your AR doesn't either.

A stupid wall on our southern border won't prevent undocumented immigration entirely either, but that hasn't prevented stupid racist Republicans from calling for one.
 

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
53,361
Reaction score
10,855
Location
Houston, in the great state of Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
What are the odds you will ever require the usage of an AR-15 or any other gun for your own personal protection?

It's about more than just YOUR odds of getting shot. Just have a shooting take place at your school can be a traumatic experience even if you're not one of the kids shot. Odds are good you will know one of the victims. Maybe a favorite teacher. That can have long-lasting psychological effects on a child.

So far in 2018, there have been 23 school shootings in 21 weeks of school. Not 23 victims, 23 shootings with at least one victim. A child goes to school for 13 years. There are approximately 36 weeks in a school year. That puts us at about 40 shootings over 13 years. So during the time you spend in school, there will be 520 school shootings many of which will have multiple casualties. There are 98,817 public schools in the United States. That puts us at a 0.5% or approximately 1 out of every 200 schools in the nation that will experience a school shooting in a 13-year span that you're in school.

You want to send your kids to school with a 1 in 200 chance there will be a crazy gunman running around at some point?



Which is why there's a whole bunch of regulations dealing with how to drive around school buses and schools when it is in session. We also make sure that school bus drivers are trained to handle a large bus, and have clean driving records before we let them get behind the wheel.

What are the odds you'd need a sports car, or jewellery? People don't have to justify what they chose to buy based on need.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
As Rucker pointed out in post #4 there is quite a bit more than an extra 2000 schools when you add in private schools and it does meaningfully change the math.
Rucker lied with statistics. I was going off the number you posted. Even if you think the number should be double 1 out of 400 isn't very good either.

So making more gun regulations would be pointless as people would just start manufacturing their own guns since they don't need to be imported.
You realize people can grow weed in their basement with a special light, right?

Guns on the other hand, in order to be effective at mass murder, don't simply grow out of the ground. There are significantly more expertise and materials necessary to produce them. Shutting down a large scale manufacturing plant would radically reduce their ability to be built. Simply watching for unusual purchases of lead would easily lead authorities to anybody trying to make bullets. You could look at receipts for the types of metal necessary to produce effective gun barrels and require people to show what was made from it.

With marijuana all you need are seeds.

If that's the case than stopping armed gunmen should be quite effective as we are right now effectively stopping illegal immigration, ever since Trump took office.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Okay, we're done here. Come join the rest of us in reality pal. Until then you're not worth my time. Migration has been slowing down for a long time now. Not because of the current dip**** in chief. Because of our recession, and because of improved job opportunities in Mexico. 75% of all undocumented immigrants come to America legally on student or work visas. They simply overstay them. Your dumbass border security does nothing to stop that.
 

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
53,361
Reaction score
10,855
Location
Houston, in the great state of Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
There are 130,000 K-12 public and private schools that meet 180 times per year. In 2018, that's 23,400,000 days of chances. In 2018, there were 26 shootings on a K-12 campus. 26/23,400,000 represents a very small chance of being at school each day when a shooting happens. Of those 26 shootings, 17 had zero deaths. There have been 31 deaths of K-12 students resulting from a shooting in a K-12 school. We average 2,600 K-12 deaths in auto accidents every year. Shooting deaths at school have about 1/100 the chance of a K-12 child dying in a car wreck. Does any hesitate to toss their little darlings into the car every day?

The modal number of dead in a school shooting is 0. The modal number of wounded is 1




100 times the chance they'll die in a car wrech over that same time period.



We have strict rules on bringing guns to school, too, yet it still happens, and school-related transportation still kills more kids every year than a shooter at their school does.

He used a debate tactic on you in his first line. It isn't dishonest, but it is a tactic.

He framed the discussion that you need to justify a need for an "assault weapon." This is an idea that most gun owners reject. I have guns not because I need them but because I want them. The only justification I need is that it's my right to own them.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
What are the odds you'd need a sports car or jewelry? People don't have to justify what they chose to buy based on need.

Yes, they do. You see a sports car and jewelry aren't primarily used for the purposes of murder. In order to kill people with a sports car, you'd generally have to be inside of it yourself in which case you're as likely to kill yourself as someone else. I should also point out that many sports cars can't be purchased in the United States because they're not street legal.

We already have restrictions on the purchasing of other weapons. Those restrictions have in fact been quite successful in preventing their proliferation so far.
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
the extra 2000 or so schools you added with private schools does not meaningfully change the math. If you are a child in America you have a 1 in 200 chance that a school shooting will happen at the school you're attending during your time in the education system. That's actually a pretty high number.
According to the DOE there are over 30,000 private schools.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84

In the 18 years from 2001 to 2018 there have been 157 shootings of all types on K-12 private and public campuses. 157/(18*130,000) is actually much less than 1/200 - it's 1/14,904, or 74 times less likely than your figure. Those 157 shootings resulted in the deaths of 137 people, 99 of whom were K-12 students. In the years 2001-2016, CDC reports that over 60,000 people age 5-18 died in motor vehicle related accidents. That's 600 times as many deaths in two fewer years. Just bicycle accidents without car involvement killed 4 times as many students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

So you're basically admitting that liberals like me are right and we do in fact need to take steps to better protect children from school shootings and gun violence you just want a different solution that won't require you to make a trivial sacrifice of any kind.

In the 157 shootings in the last 18 years, the average number of students killed was less than 1 per shooting. The shooters were both students and adults. The shootings took place both during and after school hours. The shootings took place both inside and outside of school buildings. The shooters used semiautomatic rifles, other types of rifles, pistols, revolvers, shotguns and .22s. What non-trivial steps can be taken to better protect our children from these extremely rare events, and why don't we put more energy into protecting them from auto accidents and bicycle accidents. Heck, more kids are killed getting to and from school and on school field trips than by getting shot by someone at school. The safest place for our children is at school. We've had 3100 K-12 age kids killed by fires at home from 2001-2016; that's 30 times more than murdered at school over a two year time period.

Irrelevant. The point is that we do in fact have regulations in an effort to reduce the likelihood of a tragedy and you know damn well they're worth having.
Some may be. Some don't do anything at all.

Of course. Trying to stop an armed gunman from entering a school is about as futile and pointless as trying to prevent illegal immigration. That's why if you want to have any hope of preventing things you have to try and stop the guns from getting into the hands of these **** heads in the first place. Given that most of the weapons used in these tragedies are manufactured and sold right here in America we should at least be able to put a dent in the problem if not solve the problem.

There isn't a question on the Form 4473 that asks "Are you a **** head?" Most of the guns used at school were already acquired illegally. Are you looking for double secret probation.

We are literally the only nation on earth where this type of thing regularly happens. To pretend nothing can be done about it is nonsensically stupid.
Yet those shootings still happen, which tells us that even with their laws those who want to commit crimes will find a way to do so.
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,723
Reaction score
6,754
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Kids don't go to school 1 day per year. They generally go for almost all of them. Your lying with statistics. Stop.

The school year is 180 days. 130,000 time 180 is 23,400,000. I don't lie with statistics. And it's "you're".

Automobiles are an absolute necessity for modern life. Without question, the benefits of automobiles radically outweigh the risks. Guns, on the other hand, provide little or no benefit to the average person on an average day. It is at best debatable whether or not the so-called benefits of gun ownership outweigh risk and the dangers. To compare cars with guns is nonsensically stupid.

You mean that the 60,000 deaths of school age kids in automobiles from 2001 to 2016 is absolutely worth the convenience of cars. So it's not about the deaths of children then, is it? It's about your outrage against guns.

Perfections should never be the enemy of the good. The failure to completely eliminate a problem entirely is not an excuse to prevent an attempt to try and improve things. Traffic laws may not completely eliminate traffic accidents, but only a delusional nut job would attempt to argue they provide no benefit at all. Your desire to drive drunk or do 80 mph past a school do not outweigh children's lives. Your desire to make a pumpkin explode with your AR doesn't either.

Nearly all of the kids killed at school were killed with a gun other than an AR-15. In fact, since the introduction of the AR-15 for civilian sales in 1964, only 34 K-12 children have been murdered at school by a shooter with an AR-15. In those two shootings the shooter could have easily reached the same death toll with handguns, given the death toll of the shooter at Virginia Tech facing adults.

A stupid wall on our southern border won't prevent undocumented immigration entirely either, but that hasn't prevented stupid racist Republicans from calling for one.
I don't support the wall.
 

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
53,361
Reaction score
10,855
Location
Houston, in the great state of Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yes, they do.
No they don't. It's their right to keep and bear arms.

You see a sports car and jewelry aren't primarily used for the purposes of murder.
Niether are guns. People own them for hunting, self defense, sport shooting, collecting proposes much more often than they open them for the purposes of murder
In order to kill people with a sports car, you'd generally have to be inside of it yourself in which case you're as likely to kill yourself as someone else.
You haven't established the reason people own guns is for murder so they above is irrelevant.

I should also point out that many sports cars can't be purchased in the United States because they're not street legal.
Well you actually can own cars that aren't street legal, I've owned several. You just can't operate it on the street.

We already have restrictions on the purchasing of other weapons. Those restrictions have in fact been quite successful in preventing their proliferation so far.

What kind of weapons?
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I have guns not because I need them but because I want them. The only justification I need is that it's my right to own them.

Do you want a fully automatic assault rifle? How about a bazooka? Surface to air missiles? Predator drones? Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles with a nuclear payload? These are all considered "arms." Yet, they are all illegal and incredibly difficult to come by.

You can be pulled over and ticketed for driving a car without a working tail light, and you don't think you need to justify your purchase of a weapon designed to make killing a lot of people at a distance really easy?
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,568
Reaction score
5,565
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
No they don't. It's their right to keep and bear arms.
Really? What about all the other arms they can't legally purchase?

Neither are guns.
Yes, they are. Killing someone or something is the only valid use of a gun outside of pure recreation. Recreation is not a valid use case for something that is also used for mass murder.
 
Top Bottom