What a Progressive Believes, (2 posts)

[DifferentDrummr]

This is an anonymous post that's been making the rounds on Facebook and elsewhere.

Although the words aren't mine, I would have to agree with at least 85% of it. Mostly I'm posting it because the author did an excellent job of defining American Progressivism.

"I try not to post political posts but this says it for me.
I'm a progressive, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does.

Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: Not every progressive is the same, not every progressive is a Democrat, not every progressive is a liberal! The majority of progressives I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow, extreme right wing conservatives believe that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law. I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

(Continued below)

 

[DifferentDrummr]

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I'm not opposed to deporting people who are here illegally, but I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cutting corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is sensible policies, including background checks, that just MIGHT save one person’s, perhaps a toddler’s, life by the hand of someone who should not have a gun. (Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine).

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a progressive because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.

Can't wait to see the Trumpites and the blithertarians post the same absurd talking points in 'response' to all of these! LOL

 

[jdog21]

This is an anonymous post that's been making the rounds on Facebook and elsewhere.

Although the words aren't mine, I would have to agree with at least 85% of it. Mostly I'm posting it because the author did an excellent job of defining American Progressivism.

I have a problem with #6 specifically. A minimum wage worker working only 1 job can afford a roof over their for less then 50% of their after tax income.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

I have a problem with #6 specifically. A minimum wage worker working only 1 job can afford a roof over their for less then 50% of their after tax income.

Maybe in a few parts of the country, but they sure as hell can't do it everywhere.

 

[jdog21]

Maybe in a few parts of the country, but they sure as hell can't do it everywhere.

They can do it in Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Jacksonville.
If they can do it in those cities then im pretty sure then can do it everywhere.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

They can do it in Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Jacksonville.
If they can do it in those cities then im pretty sure then can do it everywhere.

All those cities except LA are relatively cheap.

Just look at New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and DC.

 

[MrWonka]

I have a problem with #6 specifically. A minimum wage worker working only 1 job can afford a roof over their for less then 50% of their after tax income.

That's patent nonsense. Not to mention that if you're paying half your after tax income for a house you're not going to be able to afford any other necessities.

 

[Mycroft]

Here's something another Democrat...actually, ex-Democrat...believes:

 

[Bullseye]

Can't wait to see the Trumpites and the blithertarians post the same absurd talking points in 'response' to all of these! LOL

You create an interesting thread and then destroy it with this insulting bull****. So, are you just trying to collect a plethora of "yeah, me, too" responses, or what?

 

[MrWonka]

They can do it in Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Jacksonville.
If they can do it in those cities then im pretty sure then can do it everywhere.

This likely depends on what you consider a roof over your head. If you have to share an apartment with 5 other roommates who are all making minimum wage as well that's not really a quality life.

 

[chuckiechan]

All those cities except LA are relatively cheap.

Just look at New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and DC.

If health care is a human right, then you have not squared how you will pay to treat the worlds poor. And of course what you are going to do with them once they get here. If only 5% of the world comes here that is ~ 350 million new people here demanding their rights to the taxpayers teat.

I’m fresh out of teats.

Your heart goes out to everyone except the earners who pay the bills.

You should run for president of China.

 

[independentusa]

They can do it in Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Jacksonville.
If they can do it in those cities then im pretty sure then can do it everywhere.

Los Angeles, not a chance. A studio apartment with 250sq feet goes for over $1,400.00 a month. At $9.00 an hour you would have to work over 200 hours just to pay rent when you include taxes on your wages. If you work full time you work just 180 hour a month, so you would have to work more hours at one job or take a second job just to pay your rent in LA.

 

[jdog21]

All those cities except LA are relatively cheap.

Just look at New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and DC.

Min wage in SF is $15/hr. That's $31,200 a year gross. That's $25,401 after tax. I can find an apartment to rent for $670 to $800 a month.
Lets do a little math. $750 a month for rent divided by $2,116 income is 35.4%

Min wage in Seattle is $12/hr. That's $24,960 a year gross. That's $21,209 after taxes. I can find an apartment to rent for $700 a month.
Again the math. $700 a month for rent divided by $1,767 income per month is 39.6%

 

[jdog21]

That's patent nonsense. Not to mention that if you're paying half your after tax income for a house you're not going to be able to afford any other necessities.

I don't see why not. What necessities can you not afford for $1,000 a month?
After your taxes and rent has already been paid.

 

[Mr Person]

1. Yes.

2. No, but that's not for the reason you'd think. I think "rights" talk is inherently useless.* Rather, I wholeheartedly support a single payer system (though I see no point in doing away with private supplemental insurance if someone can afford all the bells and whistles). I do that not because a human being has an objective but invisible right to receive health care (which, despite being objective, was ignored for thousands and thousands of years), but rather because we can bloody well afford it and if we can afford a better society, why the hell not? So someone can buy a third yacht?

3. Yes. I'd like to see a vastly expanded system of quality government schools that are priced affordably, not for example Bernie's hopelessly stupid one time debt forgiveness swill.

4. Answer depends on specifics. There are a lot of right and wrong ways to go about trying to provide a bottom-line safety net.

5. Well, yeah, we all need to pay more in taxes. But as with single-payer, if done right, the amount more you pay in taxes is less than the amount you save in not paying premiums. And remember: we already provide free health care. ERISA requires hospitals to stabilize you. You won't get everything, but they can't turn you away because you don't have an insurance card.

6. See, this is tricky. I'd be down with moving to a national minimum wage indexed to its maximum value in the late 60s...roughly $10-11/hr in real dollar terms. If localities want to experiment with higher MWs, that's their business. But I'm not sure that's the clear answer vs. a better type of safety net or what. Dictating wages, like prices, has a whole lot of potential drawbacks.

7. Get religion out of my government.

8. Duh

9. Duh. We need a functional legal immigration system and a sensible approach to illegal immigration, not this stupid ****ing wall that won't work and be very expensive.

10. Impossible to answer other than "quite a few regulations are good, some are bad. I want ones that follow a sensible cost-benefit analysis, not ones that just sound good. There are millions and millions. Suffice to say the people who scream most about regulations have no idea how to even go about assessing the wisdom of a particular regulation.

11. Not fascist. Populist with some identifiable similarities with fascism. We should be on the lookout, but we sure aren't there yet. Don't overstate your case.









*Aside lecture: The only moral authority gained by calling something a right is if you believe it exists objectively. This, in turn, only becomes coherent if you suppose something incoherent: the existence of a God that created these rights. Why? Well, everything else in objective existence we can describe and measure. We can test. Putting aside the fact that it would make no sense to suppose a human right to health care was floating around the universe for billions of years just waiting for humans to evolve......and then later make up health care systems .... no physical law describes or predicts a right. They cannot be measured in any sense. There is no test for proving if something is a right or not.

 

[veritas1]

#11 rather disqualifies the rest. This person doesn't know what fascism is and can point to no example of the Trump administration engaging in anything remotely fascist. If they don't like the situation at the border, blame Congress and the obstructionists. What's worse is that they claim to have read a lot about the Nazis and still make this statement. It's total nonsense. If Trump were anything like the Nazis, the free press would be gone, we'd be having plebiscites instead of elections and he/she wouldn't be able to post their nutty accusations on the internet.

 

[jdog21]

Los Angeles, not a chance. A studio apartment with 250sq feet goes for over $1,400.00 a month. At $9.00 an hour you would have to work over 200 hours just to pay rent when you include taxes on your wages. If you work full time you work just 180 hour a month, so you would have to work more hours at one job or take a second job just to pay your rent in LA.

There are more then 18 listings for a studio or 1 bedroom apartments in Los Angeles that are less then $800 a month. Go check apartment.com.
Also the minimum wage in LA is $13.25
Los Angeles , California Minimum Wage 2019 - Minimum-Wage.org

 

[lwf]

Min wage in SF is $15/hr. That's $31,200 a year gross. That's $25,401 after tax. I can find an apartment to rent for $670 to $800 a month.
Lets do a little math. $750 a month for rent divided by $2,116 income is 35.4%

Min wage in Seattle is $12/hr. That's $24,960 a year gross. That's $21,209 after taxes. I can find an apartment to rent for $700 a month.
Again the math. $700 a month for rent divided by $1,767 income per month is 39.6%

Fantastic! So long as you never start a family, don't own a car, have no debts, and carry a weapon at all times, you are good to go.

 

[Mr Person]

12. "than many people think" makes this impossible to answer. There certainly is more systemic "ism" and individual "ism" than people, most frequently those on a certain side of the political spectrum, would care to admit (because, if admitted, they undermine their perceived side's narrative that accusations of racism are always just designed to victimize/shut down a conservative. That isn't true.

13. Roughly that. There are a few more sensible things we can do that aren't too invasive. There's a package of things that would never pass but I would do it. But that's another debate, and I've already been told that it would lead to gun confiscation, which it wouldn't but....well...gun control is really not worth my time to argue about. The two majority'sides' are cemented in utterly polarized and really quite stupid positions.

14. IT'S A TRAP! There are plenty of examples of things called political correctness that I find hilariously stupid and obnoxious. I might even - gasp - call those things retarded, which is not politically correct at all. But on the other hand, there are plenty of things people have done that I think are terrible and yet saying so gets me accused of being a "PC liberal." Like so many things, there is no substantive debate because everyone's busy arguing about what the definition of "is" is. Word games.

15. Yes, with caveats: cost-benefit has to make sense short term and long term. I wouldn't just dump money into any old project, and I'd be more for funding basic research than trying to pick winners/losers in an industry to subsidize or not. (Speaking of which, I'd happily carve a good 200 billion out of the defense budget and put it into NIH-like programs. Science first. Otherwise, we'll destroy ourselves without ever getting off this cold rock, and wouldn't that be a sad ending?)

16. Again, caveats caveats. For the same job, of course they 'should.' But the moment you get into the question of what policy might fix it beyond a sort of general societal push, you run into problems. Are we going to have a super-massive Department of Assessing Work Qualifications? Someone might get paid less because of sexism, or maybe because they don't have quite the same skill set, or the responsibilities are different at job A than job B.

Probably be easier to leave to lawsuits, but then, I have my own gripes about American civil litigation...




See, the problem with this kind of thing is even as detailed as the two-page OP is, it's far too generalized. I suspect that when it came down to discussing specific policies on a one-by-one basis with someone who does consider themselves a true "progressive", we'd disagree on most. I tend to do so in person.

But in terms of category? Sure, most of the categories are generic ideas that are palatable, but that says nothing meaningful. It's easy to be for something when you aren't talking about how you're going to make it happen.





But all this is not suited for the tl;dr age. We can't have nice things because people are too ****ing lazy (and too interested in looking cool) to do the necessary deep dive into an issue.

Reminds me of junior high, when you were supposedly a loser if you knew the answer to the teacher's question. It's just about exactly like that: haha, NERD, you actually spent the time to talk about this thing!

 

[Mr Person]

#11 rather disqualifies the rest. This person doesn't know what fascism is and can point to no example of the Trump administration engaging in anything remotely fascist. If they don't like the situation at the border, blame Congress and the obstructionists. What's worse is that they claim to have read a lot about the Nazis and still make this statement. It's total nonsense. If Trump were anything like the Nazis, the free press would be gone, we'd be having plebiscites instead of elections and he/she wouldn't be able to post their nutty accusations on the internet.

That is stupid and dishonest. Nobody has to agree with 11 to agree with any one or even all of the rest. You just wanted a reason to **** on the thread.

That's the tl;dr twitter age for you.


Not discussing is the point.

 

[Taylor]

There's no need for a 16-pt definition of "progressive" in this country. Progressives are nothing more than privileged, white Democrats.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

If health care is a human right, then you have not squared how you will pay to treat the worlds poor. And of course what you are going to do with them once they get here. If only 5% of the world comes here that is ~ 350 million new people here demanding their rights to the taxpayers teat.

I’m fresh out of teats.

Your heart goes out to everyone except the earners who pay the bills.

You should run for president of China.

The US needs to take care of its own poor first. Then we can figure out how to help the rest of the world.

 

[Mr Person]

There's no need for a 16-pt definition of "progressive" in this country. Progressives are nothing more than privileged, white Democrats.

Just post ":fart" in the future. It'll save everyone time, even you.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

You create an interesting thread and then destroy it with this insulting bull****. So, are you just trying to collect a plethora of "yeah, me, too" responses, or what?

Maybe libertarians can start behaving in ways that don't merit insult.

 

[tres borrachos]

Fantastic! So long as you never start a family, don't own a car, have no debts, and carry a weapon at all times, you are good to go.

Don't need any healthcare, don't need a phone or other utilities, don't need clothes and food....