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wether you consider a fetus human or not, you are taking away a human life.

scottm123

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I'm not a biology major or anything, but I'm pretty sure fetuses are what make babies and babyies are human beings. People think getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy should be a person's right, but I don't see how taking away someone else's chance at life could be a right. Doesn't the person that the fetus will eventually become have rights. With how concerned everyone is for equal rights, equal rights for women, equal rights for minorities, equal rights for gays, I don't see how people care so little about the rights of a fetus.
 

steen

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scottm123 said:
I'm not a biology major or anything, but I'm pretty sure fetuses are what make babies and babyies are human beings. People think getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy should be a person's right, but I don't see how taking away someone else's chance at life could be a right.
Until it is a baby, it is not "someone else."
Doesn't the person that the fetus will eventually become have rights.
Not until it actually is that person.
With how concerned everyone is for equal rights, equal rights for women, equal rights for minorities, equal rights for gays, I don't see how people care so little about the rights of a fetus.
Because the "rights" for a fetus are carried at the expense of the woman.
 

scottm123

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I don't see how people can be so cold toward something that is human, and you can sit there and pretend its not human all you want but it is made of human cells and will be human one day and is alive so i don't know what else to clasify it as. And i'm sick of hearing people say things like the fetus is hurting the women's rights or coming at the expense of the women. Its her child her own creation her offspring. And yes the fetus's right do come at cost to the mother but don't poor people rights come at a cost to the wealthy people who pay taxes that go to welfare, don't illegal immigrants rights to go to public school cost every student by giving them less funding and a worste education, yes. people all over this country make sacrifices that at times do infringe on one's rights but it is for the good of something else
 

steen

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scottm123 said:
I don't see how people can be so cold toward something that is human,
Well, YOU are cold towards the woman. I don't see how you can place her beneath a non-thinking, non-feeling tissue mass?
and you can sit there and pretend its not human all you want
I am not, so please don't misrepresent me. That is very rude and will very fast get you branded as a liar. So please don't do that, ok?
but it is made of human cells and will be human one day and is alive so i don't know what else to clasify it as.
And I didn't challenge your use of "human" as classification either, so you are arguing against something I didn't say. Please read more carefully next time. The words used DOES matter, especially in the abortion forum.
And i'm sick of hearing people say things like the fetus is hurting the women's rights or coming at the expense of the women.
But it is. I am sorry that you are sick of hearing facts, sick of hearing reality. That doesn't bode well for your ability to handle discussions in this forum.
Its her child
Not until birth, it isn't. Remember how I said that the words you use do matter here? "Child" is a developmental stage beginning after birth. Please don't misrepresent it this way, thanks.
her own creation
Sure sounds like "her property," then.
her offspring.
It really isn't an "offspring" until it has "sprung off," until it is born.
And yes the fetus's right do come at cost to the mother
Again, she really isn't a mother until the birth. But other than that, thank you for FINALLY being a PL who admits that their position involved placing the embryo's rights at the expense of the woman's rights. So few PL are willing to admit such misogyny.
but don't poor people rights come at a cost to the wealthy people who pay taxes that go to welfare, don't illegal immigrants rights to go to public school cost every student by giving them less funding and a worste education, yes. people all over this country make sacrifices that at times do infringe on one's rights but it is for the good of something else
You are talking about financial sacrifice, not being forced to give of your bodily resources. If you had examples of people being forced to give blood or give their extra kidney, THEN you would have a point.

That aside, the embryo or fetuses are not persons, so your argument frankly doesn't matter.
 

Felicity

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steen said:
That aside, the embryo or fetuses are not persons, so your argument frankly doesn't matter.
You wanna argue that point to its logical conclusion, steen?
 

lori palmer

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when a woman becomes pregnant, she is given a due date. sometimes babies are born a week before,sometimes 3 months before. say 2 women concieve at the same time. their due date is dec. 24th. one woman gives birth 2 months in advance. at birth that child is at the same developmental stage as the child in the womb. look at the preemie. is that child not alive, human, feeling? do you really thik that child in the womb is any different(exept by experience?) does the child in the womb have any less capacity to feel.
 

Old and wise

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Felicity said:
You wanna argue that point to its logical conclusion, steen?
There is NO logical conclusion. Some people believe a fetus is a human being and others do not. No amount of debate in this forum is going to change anyones mind on what they believe, so why bother to debate the issue?
 

steen

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Hyperbole.

lori palmer said:
when a woman becomes pregnant, she is given a due date. sometimes babies are born a week before,sometimes 3 months before. say 2 women concieve at the same time. their due date is dec. 24th. one woman gives birth 2 months in advance.
Ah, at 32 weeks, then. Ok. So?
at birth that child is at the same developmental stage as the child in the womb.
"child in the womb" just sounds like more claptrap revisionist linguistic hyperbole. It is called FETUS. Why your reluctance to use correct, accurate and specific vocabulary?

That aside, the developmental stage actually changes significally with the first couple of breaths, causing rather significant physiological changes in its body. So your claim is bordering on incorrect.
look at the preemie. is that child not alive, human, feeling?
At 32 weeks? Yes, certainly.
do you really thik that child in the womb..
Again, there is no such thing. Could you please try to avoid the impression of deception that you show ny using such false vocabulary?
is any different(exept by experience?) does the child in the womb have any less capacity to feel.
Other than it still being a fetus, at 32 weeks, there is a general agreement that yes it can feel. So what? That has never been a question.

But then, abortions at 32 weeks outside of medical emergencies seems like a rather silly claim, so what is the relevance of all this, other than giving you the chance to spout revisionist linguistics?
 

Felicity

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Old and wise said:
There is NO logical conclusion. Some people believe a fetus is a human being and others do not. No amount of debate in this forum is going to change anyones mind on what they believe, so why bother to debate the issue?
Sounds more like old and lazy to me!;)
 

Elektra

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scottm123 said:
I don't see how people can be so cold toward something that is human, and you can sit there and pretend its not human all you want but it is made of human cells and will be human one day and is alive so i don't know what else to clasify it as. e
You obviously can't.What are you, a 16 year old boy?

let yourself be reborn as a woman who is forced through a delivery, maybe then youc an....:doh
 

vergiss

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Felicity said:
You wanna argue that point to its logical conclusion, steen?
The burden of proof is on the author of this thread for saying that they are.
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
The burden of proof is on the author of this thread for saying that they are.
Well...I've addressed it elsewhere...but I see your not commenting there.
 

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Really? You've provided ultimate proof that embryos are living human souls? Please, show me where.
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
Really? You've provided ultimate proof that embryos are living human souls? Please, show me where.
Well...we didn't get into souls, and the other poster claims he's still gonna whack me with his proof the stance I presented is faulty (although I've been waiting....)...

Anyway--see post #475 in the "Explain your reasoning" thread.
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

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If life is your concern and not human personhood, then put down those beef patties, cause they were made by killing weee cute widdle cows. Cows are alive, therefore killing them and making them not alive must obviously be wrong.
 

Felicity

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
If life is your concern and not human personhood, then put down those beef patties, cause they were made by killing weee cute widdle cows. Cows are alive, therefore killing them and making them not alive must obviously be wrong.
It would help if you quoted or addressed who you were talking to....;)
 

Felicity

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
I am only talking about you ;)
Well...I was talking about personhood...so....what's your point?
 

tecoyah

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Perhaps if we had some accepted definition of what "Personhood" is....this could be debated. If indeed this is what you had in mind....you have already defeated your own stance:

per·son·hood Audio pronunciation of "personhood" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pûrsn-hd)
n.

The state or condition of being a person, especially having those qualities that confer distinct individuality: “finding her own personhood as a campus activist”


I for one....would appreciate a some explanation of the criteria you have decided upon to define what you claim to be murder.
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

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Personhood is the state of being able to express pain and pleasure, but also being self aware as an entity with continual existence, past, present, and future. It must be rationally autonomous, which means, it cannot be existing as part of another being. It must be separate.
 

tecoyah

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That bieng the case...personhood would require the ability to "think" as a human. Studies(which I will document if required) have shown the brainwave patterns of a developing fetus in the womb. These have shown the ability to think (best case scenario, to avoid any possible error) do not occur until the third trimester of a pregnancy....and this is simply the wave pattern required to hint at some level of brain function.
Should we use this criteria as a guage of Humanity in a developing embryo, it would seem (apparently thru coincidence, as the courts decided this before the studys were done) that we are NOT killing a person when we abort legally. In my experience, this Data will be ignored by anyone who is prolife in this forum....simply because minds have been made up, and information is relative only to the opinion of the individual who reads it.

Welcome to the real world...Neo
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

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Exactly. Development of the brain and branewaves are important, because they signal that the being at least has the capability of developing thought. Without a brain, that is completely 100% impossible.
 

steen

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And even the physical connection, the nerve connections necessary for signals to actually reach the brain's cortex, these connections are not even made until the end of the 26th week of pregnancy.
 

Felicity

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tecoyah said:
I for one....would appreciate a some explanation of the criteria you have decided upon to define what you claim to be murder.
The nature of the species ("nature" as in the Aristotelian entelechy) demonstrates higher order rationality such as abstract conceptualization and extrapolation--imagination--and self will.
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

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The nature of the species ("nature" as in the Aristotelian entelechy) demonstrates higher order rationality such as abstract conceptualization and extrapolation--imagination--and self will.

I think this is the proper structure. It has been a long time since I studied logic.


1. Modus Ponens Format: Typically, Modus Ponens affirms the antecedent, thus affirming the consequent. In an if only if then statement, however, it is valid to negate the antecedent to negate the consequent. The consequent is valid if and only if the antecedent is valid.

IE. If and only if I eat apples, do I go to the park. I do not eat apples, therefore, I don't go to the park. Y can ONLY exist if X exists.

X------Y,
Not X
Ergo, not Y

If and only if the nature of a species is present, then the member is a person. Refined, this means, if and only if a member of a species has, rationality, self-awareness, and abstract conceptualization, then it is a Person. How does this relate to our problem? This is an if/only/if then statement in the form of Modus Ponens. In this case, the antecedent is not met in mindless blobs of flesh, ergo, those mindles blobs of flesh are not persons. Not X = Not Y, because of the "only" qualifer.


Someone please correct me on this, but I checked it up on the if and only if then statements, and it seems correct:

http://richardbowles.tripod.com/gmat/cr/logic.htm#mp
 
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