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West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo[W:301]

Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Moderator's Warning:
Enough of the baiting and personal comments. Comments need to be more closely related to the topic in the OP, not each other.

Those unable to do that, will be launched from the thread. Maybe with points.

Thank you.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Why would we punish people for doing what Alice Cooper wants people to do, maybe they are all fans of Alice Cooper

View attachment 67201458

But seriously, if the investigator does not think it was political, then why should they be punished for it?

Black people did it. Therefore black panthers.

70cb5b5fae5a2d8160e2f34ee5c25c62.500x500x1.jpg


Raised fist symbols predate.... like, everything.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I find it entertaining that some of you here are quick to believe that the investigator does not believe it was political, yet never believe an investigator who claims a police officer's shooting of a suspect was perfectly legal, especially if that suspect happened to be black.

I also find it interesting that with what has been going on in recent pop-culture, with the whole Beyonce black panther bull**** that nobody believes this has any correlation whatsoever.......

Some of ya'll are just blind, intentionally so.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I find it entertaining that some of you here are quick to believe that the investigator does not believe it was political, yet never believe an investigator who claims a police officer's shooting of a suspect was perfectly legal, especially if that suspect happened to be black.

I also find it interesting that with what has been going on in recent pop-culture, with the whole Beyonce black panther bull**** that nobody believes this has any correlation whatsoever.......

Some of ya'll are just blind, intentionally so.

yeah, I pointed that out a few pages ago but they blew right by it. when was the last time a liberal pointed to military decision makers as the arbiters of good judgment? answer: never ever. till now. the hypocrisy is startling.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Glad to hear that, then we agree that the raised black fist is not a sign of racism?



The above is false:

The third man: The forgotten Black Power hero - CNN.com



Anything else in that post is irrelevant.

I don't agree that a raised black fist cannot be a sign of racism, it depends on context. As does many things.

Unlike ignorant asses who jump to racist conclutions about everything, most normal people can understand how something can be racist in a certain context, and not racist in a different context........... Which is why some of us don't find toilet paper that happened to have been left on a floor in the shape of a noose not necessarily racist (remember that one).


I like how you dismissed everything else in my post showing that black people are often finding themselves in need of feeling the victim so much that they have to create new ways to be victims.

INteresting that you wouldn't want to discuss that one.... I understand.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I don't agree that a raised black fist cannot be a sign of racism, it depends on context. As does many things.

Unlike ignorant asses who jump to racist conclutions about everything, most normal people can understand how something can be racist in a certain context, and not racist in a different context........... Which is why some of us don't find toilet paper that happened to have been left on a floor in the shape of a noose not necessarily racist (remember that one).


I like how you dismissed everything else in my post showing that black people are often finding themselves in need of feeling the victim so much that they have to create new ways to be victims.

INteresting that you wouldn't want to discuss that one.... I understand.

Lmao, so black women who've chosen to be subservient within a hierarchy where most of the commanding officers are in fact white males, who've decided to go to a school where most of the faculty is white and who will most likely (guaranteed whether Hillary or Trump win) be serving under a white POTUS if they decide to stay in the army past November 2016.

Are they racists? :lol:

Get serious, Caine. You want to place things in context? I just did. Now answer, given all of these facts do you still think these women are racists? No? Then there is a non-issue here.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Lmao, so black women who've chosen to be subservient within a hierarchy where most of the commanding officers are in fact white males, who've decided to go to a school where most of the faculty is white and who will most likely (guaranteed whether Hillary or Trump win) be serving under a white POTUS if they decide to stay in the army past November 2016.

Are they racists? :lol:

Get serious, Caine. You want to place things in context? I just did. Now answer, given all of these facts do you still think these women are racists? No? Then there is a non-issue here.

What does the fact that military officers and west point faculty are mostly white have to do with this conversation?


Were you also aware that most of the country is white? Or did that little factoid slip your mind?

Should people be promoted to positions in our military on the basis of them being black just so we can have more black people in certain positions? Is that not racist in it self? Of course, You will respond that you didn't suggest that.... so then I would be left to ask again....

What does them being white have to do with any of this????

Or is simply being white in your mind a sign of racism??
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

What does the fact that military officers and west point faculty are mostly white have to do with this conversation?

It places who these women are in context. In other words, you're trying to find racism in a group of people who've chosen to be subservient to whites within a hierarchy run by mostly white males and where dissention will more than likely end their careers. That you fail to recognize this speaks volume about how weak your case is.

The rest of your post is one giant irrelevant fishing expedition.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

It places who these women are in context. That you fail to recognize this speaks volume about how weak your case is.

I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

You see, in the Army that I joined, you left your race and all that other bull**** back home. Race wasn't a factor in the Army I joined......


Then again, I've never been a black person.... race hasn't been a the forefront of all of my waking thoughts and dreams from the moment I was old enough to be taught things by my parents.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

That doesn't surprise me. In short, you're trying to expect us all to believe that women who:

1. Willingly signed up to join a hierarchy where their bosses will be from the primary group their alleged ideology has a problem with.
2. Willingly decided to be taught, regulated and disciplined by members of that group.
3. Willingly joined an organization that has historically discriminated against them.

Are racists.

Again, do you not see why the context in which this picture was taken in refutes any premise that they're racists? Or do I have to type it really slowly?
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

There's little doubt in my mind that the whole "raised fist" thing was inspired by the Black Panther/Black Power/#blacklivesmatter movements and the philosophy behind the same.

But people being inspired by something and people being active participants in something are two entirely different things.

Likewise, having little doubt (which is the only real standard I need to hold myself to on the Internet) and having absolute proof (which is the standard military investigators need to meet before taking action) are two entirely different things.

Obviously the institution had doubts similar to my own otherwise they wouldn't have investigated in the first place.

But clearly the investigation was unable to turn up any clear and compelling evidence that these women were part of a political movement or advocating any particular political position.

I'm sure that when they were interviewed they said that the raised fist simply signified solidarity with each other and celebration of the accomplishment of completing school, or the semester, or the school year, or something along those lines.

Absent any evidence that there was something larger going on the investigators probably had to take the word of the women involved and just leave it at that.

There wasn't enough evidence to punish them, but there was enough evidence to counsel them on the impropriety of their behavior.

Hopefully they tighten up their shot group and go forward from here not making the same or similar mistakes throughout their careers.

I fail to see this as being any bigger of a deal than the school made of it.

Of course, I say that as a Veteran who should have gotten a LOT more Article 15s than I actually got especially because, on a few occasions, I was able to tap dance my way out of punishment.

If I can act up while in uniform and then get off the hook because there just wasn't enough evidence against me to merit formal punishment I can hardly hold a bunch of 20 year old girls who have never set foot in the "real world" to a higher standard.

Yes, I know they're officers.

Have any of you ever met a single 2LT who was worth his or her weight in cow **** fresh out of school?

Cherry LTs make all kinds of stupid mistakes, and I'm sure cadets who haven't even finished their basic military schooling make plenty more.
 
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Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

soot - nicely stated.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

There's little doubt in my mind that the whole "raised fist" thing was inspired by the Black Panther/Black Power/#blacklivesmatter movements and the philosophy behind the same.

But people being inspired by something and people being active participants in something are two entirely different things.

Likewise, having little doubt (which is the only real standard I need to hold myself to on the Internet) and having absolute proof (which is the standard military investigators need to meet before taking action) are two entirely different things.

Obviously the institution had doubts similar to my own otherwise they wouldn't have investigated in the first place.

But clearly the investigation was unable to turn up any clear and compelling evidence that these women were part of a political movement or advocating any particular political position.

I'm sure that when they were interviewed they said that the raised fist simply signified solidarity with each other and celebration of the accomplishment of completing school, or the semester, or the school year, or something along those lines.

Absent any evidence that there was something larger going on the investigators probably had to take the word of the women involved and just leave it at that.

There wasn't enough evidence to punish them, but there was enough evidence to counsel them on the impropriety of their behavior.

Hopefully they tighten up their shot group and go forward from here not making the same or similar mistakes throughout their careers.

I fail to see this as being any bigger of a deal than the school made of it.

Of course, I say that as a Veteran who should have gotten a LOT more Article 15s than I actually got especially because, on a few occasions, I was able to tap dance my way out of punishment.

If I can act up while in uniform and then get off the hook because there just wasn't enough evidence against me to merit formal punishment I can hardly hold a bunch of 20 year old girls who have never set foot in the "real world" to a higher standard.

Yes, I know they're officers.

Have any of you ever met a single 2LT who was worth his or her weight in cow **** fresh out of school?

Cherry LTs make all kinds of stupid mistakes, and I'm sure cadets who haven't even finished their basic military schooling make plenty more.

You make a very good point.

Im sure this had alot to do with the popularity of Beyonce's black panther style antics recently, and they were just emulating it.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

That doesn't surprise me. In short, you're trying to expect us all to believe that women who:

1. Willingly signed up to join a hierarchy where their bosses will be from the primary group their alleged ideology has a problem with.
2. Willingly decided to be taught, regulated and disciplined by members of that group.
3. Willingly joined an organization that has historically discriminated against them.

Are racists.

Again, do you not see why the context in which this picture was taken in refutes any premise that they're racists? Or do I have to type it really slowly?

I never claimed they were racists.

I only stated that dismissing racism inherent in symbolism because there are cases where it is NOT racist is naive.

In their case here, they are just emulating a popular pop star (Beyonce) who has been running around pushing some agenda by trying to bring back black panther symbolism to her performances.

At least those are my thoughts on the matter.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never claimed they were racists.

Good, then there is nothing for us to discuss. They simply aren't. It's just bitching and moaning from the usual suspects who can't deal with people more successful than them doing things they dislike.

:shrug:
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

That doesn't surprise me. In short, you're trying to expect us all to believe that women who:

1. Willingly signed up to join a hierarchy where their bosses will be from the primary group their alleged ideology has a problem with.
2. Willingly decided to be taught, regulated and disciplined by members of that group.
3. Willingly joined an organization that has historically discriminated against them.

Are racists.

What a load of crap.

The U.S. military in general, and the U.S. Army in particular, have always been pioneers of racial integration and equality.

This is especially true for the officer corp.

Benjamin O. Davis Sr., the first African American to reach the U.S. Army's General Officer ranks, was promoted to Brigadier General on October 25, 1940.

Dr. Clifton R. Wharton, Jr., the first African American to be appointed CEO of a Fortune 500 company (TIAA-CREF) didn't achieve that distinction until 1987.

Since that time only 15 African American business executives, in total, have ever been appointed CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

In that same period of time there have been hundreds of African Americans to serve as General Officers across all four branches of the armed services.

Marcelite J. Harris was the first African American female to serve as a General Officer in the U.S. military with a date of rank of May 1, 1991.

The first African American woman, Ursula M. Burns, to be appointed CEO of a Fortune 500 Company didn't achieve the distinction until 2009.

With Executive Order 9981, issued on July 26, 1948, Harry S. Truman officially abolished racial discrimination and segregation in the United States Armed Forces.

Segregation and discrimination didn't "officially" end in the civilian sector until the Civil Rights Act of 1964, though it could be argued that in many respects certain institutions and segments of society are still "unofficially" segregated or discriminatory toward African Americans.

And look, none of this is to say that African Americans encounter nothing but "blue skies and following seas" in the military.

I'm fully aware that the majority of senior military officers are still white and that blacks can encounter certain racist headwinds.

But what they encounter in the military is NOTHING like what they'll encounter in the civilian workforce.

I don't know whether these women at USMA were/are racist or not, and neither do you.

But to claim that they couldn't be simply by virtue of the fact that they accepted a free education at one of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning on the planet is ludicrous.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never claimed they were racists.

I only stated that dismissing racism inherent in symbolism because there are cases where it is NOT racist is naive.

In their case here, they are just emulating a popular pop star (Beyonce) who has been running around pushing some agenda by trying to bring back black panther symbolism to her performances.

At least those are my thoughts on the matter.

Impressive. Do you do yoga as a warmup??
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

There's little doubt in my mind that the whole "raised fist" thing was inspired by the Black Panther/Black Power/#blacklivesmatter movements and the philosophy behind the same.

But people being inspired by something and people being active participants in something are two entirely different things.

Likewise, having little doubt (which is the only real standard I need to hold myself to on the Internet) and having absolute proof (which is the standard military investigators need to meet before taking action) are two entirely different things.

Obviously the institution had doubts similar to my own otherwise they wouldn't have investigated in the first place.

But clearly the investigation was unable to turn up any clear and compelling evidence that these women were part of a political movement or advocating any particular political position.

I'm sure that when they were interviewed they said that the raised fist simply signified solidarity with each other and celebration of the accomplishment of completing school, or the semester, or the school year, or something along those lines.

Absent any evidence that there was something larger going on the investigators probably had to take the word of the women involved and just leave it at that.

There wasn't enough evidence to punish them, but there was enough evidence to counsel them on the impropriety of their behavior.

Hopefully they tighten up their shot group and go forward from here not making the same or similar mistakes throughout their careers.

I fail to see this as being any bigger of a deal than the school made of it.

Of course, I say that as a Veteran who should have gotten a LOT more Article 15s than I actually got especially because, on a few occasions, I was able to tap dance my way out of punishment.

If I can act up while in uniform and then get off the hook because there just wasn't enough evidence against me to merit formal punishment I can hardly hold a bunch of 20 year old girls who have never set foot in the "real world" to a higher standard.

Yes, I know they're officers.

Have any of you ever met a single 2LT who was worth his or her weight in cow **** fresh out of school?

Cherry LTs make all kinds of stupid mistakes, and I'm sure cadets who haven't even finished their basic military schooling make plenty more.

I never seen a openly racist gesture from a "Cherry 2nd Lt." I hope that their names get spread around to the commands that these racists are heading to. They are going to find life very hard from all races within the troops.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never seen a openly racist gesture from a "Cherry 2nd Lt." I hope that their names get spread around to the commands that these racists are heading to. They are going to find life very hard from all races within the troops.

Well, I think you're going overboard with the racism accusations because none have been firmly established, and I think you're selling our currently serving officers and enlisted men and women short with your assumption that they're all narrow minded ideologues who sit at their computer monitor all day long looking for reasons to curse the current state of the world, and I doubt very much that these young officers will be treated any differently than any other new guy at a unit, who might arrive with a bad reputation fr whatever reason but will be individually weighed and measured at the unit and judged according to performance on the job rather than a single indiscretion while in training.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Well, I think you're going overboard with the racism accusations because none have been firmly established, and I think you're selling our currently serving officers and enlisted men and women short with your assumption that they're all narrow minded ideologues who sit at their computer monitor all day long looking for reasons to curse the current state of the world, and I doubt very much that these young officers will be treated any differently than any other new guy at a unit, who might arrive with a bad reputation fr whatever reason but will be individually weighed and measured at the unit and judged according to performance on the job rather than a single indiscretion while in training.

Fully racist, and white boys & girls would have been booted for a similar gesture......period! I have seen kids kicked out of the Academy for less.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Of course to some dimwits gay pride parades were never political either. Had these people all identified as white as they all identify as nonwhite everything would be different. SAD.

Sad indeed- everything would be different if the fists raised were white- none of the 'dimwits' would have given a rat's rump... :peace
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never seen a openly racist gesture from a "Cherry 2nd Lt." I hope that their names get spread around to the commands that these racists are heading to. They are going to find life very hard from all races within the troops.

When he first joined the Navy - my eldest served as an OS on DDG-82, based in Tokyo. I enjoyed listening to the stories of his first boat. All I can say is - his experience with racism from young officers was vastly different than yours. I couldn't begin to explain why, but the contrast is startling.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

When he first joined the Navy - my eldest served as an OS on DDG-82, based in Tokyo. I enjoyed listening to the stories of his first boat. All I can say is - his experience with racism from young officers was vastly different than yours. I couldn't begin to explain why, but the contrast is startling.

I never heard one officer make a racial comment or gesture in 20+ years in the Navy. I have seen officers send young sailors to Capt's Mast for this though.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Fully racist, and white boys & girls would have been booted for a similar gesture......period! I have seen kids kicked out of the Academy for less.

LOL

Well, I think you're wrong, but I don't really care enough about this topic or your opinion of it to keep arguing with you.

Have the best day ever.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

What a load of crap.

The U.S. military in general, and the U.S. Army in particular, have always been pioneers of racial integration and equality....

All of that nonsense so that you could claim a single first brigadier general? KK my turn:

US Civil War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racia...United_States_Armed_Forces#United_States_Army

In the United States Civil War, some 180,000 African Americans joined the Union Army and served mostly in support roles as teamsters, laborers, construction workers and cooks. Some fought the Confederate Army under European American officers in segregated units.

The Tuskegee Airmen were the first African-American military aviators in the United States armed forces. During World War II, African Americans in southern states were still subject to the Jim Crow laws.[N 1] The American military was racially segregated, as was much of the federal government. The Tuskegee Airmen were subjected to racial discrimination, both within and outside the army. Despite these adversities, they trained and flew with distinction. All black military pilots who trained in the United States trained at Tuskegee, including five Haitians.

In June 1940 the Navy had 4,007 African-American personnel, representing 2.3 percent of its total strength of nearly 170,000. All of these African Americans were enlisted men, and with the exception of six regular-rated seamen, all were steward's mates. They were characterized by the black press as "seagoing bellhops." Within a month after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the number of African Americans in the Navy had increased to 5,026; however, they were still restricted to working as steward's mates.[6]

In late 1949, all-black USMC units persisted, but the Marines had black and white recruits beginning to train together. The few black USMC officers were assigned exclusively to black units; they were not asked to lead white Marines into combat. In 1952 after two years of the Korean War, the Marines cautiously integrated blacks into combat units.[7] In the late 1950s, black Marines were not rewarded with preferred or high-visibility assignments, such as embassy guard duty and guard duty in the nation's capital.[7] By 1960, full integration of the races had been completed by the USMC, but racial tensions flared up through the next decade, a period of civil rights activism in the larger society.[7]

So in short, the military AT BEST, reached desegregation an entire 6 years after the rest of the country was being told to desegregate. Come on, let's not rewrite history and call anybody a pioneer when they were moving at the same rate (if not slower) than everyone else.

As far as this thread goes, my point was simple. If these women are racists, why would they join a structure where they'd be under the people they feel superior to?
 
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