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West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo[W:301]

Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

LOL

Well, I think you're wrong, but I don't really care enough about this topic or your opinion of it to keep arguing with you.

Have the best day ever.

That is because you are wrong in so many ways, and have little understanding of the deck plate level of the military.

Enjoy the rest of your day.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never heard one officer make a racial comment or gesture in 20+ years in the Navy. I have seen officers send young sailors to Capt's Mast for this though.

Yes... so you have suggested. And I take you at your word. I simply note the discrepancy between your own experience/perception and that of another squid, whom I trust. If you'd like to explore the possible explanations for the variance... we could. But it would, necessarily, never rise above mere speculation. And it's a bit of a sidebar to the OP.
 
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Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Yes... so you have suggested. And I take you at your word. I simply note the discrepancy between your own experience/perception and that of another squid, whom I trust. If you'd like to explore the possible explanations for the variance... we could. But it would, necessarily, never rise above mere speculation.

No... I speak from a first hand account from many, many, different Navy and Army units.. Your son spoke of a single duty station? ( not discrediting him)

If the word gets out throughout the lower ranks, you are toast with them! If the word gets out among superior officers........you are toast with them and your fitness reports will always lack the needed positive characteristics needed for assuming more responsibility. That is how a good Cap't/Cdr will handle these types of situations with problem officers who cannot motivate through good leadership.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Impressive. Do you do yoga as a warmup??

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Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

All of that nonsense so that you could claim a single first brigadier general? KK my turn:

US Civil War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racia...United_States_Armed_Forces#United_States_Army









So in short, the military AT BEST, reached desegregation an entire 6 years after the rest of the country was being told to desegregate. Come on, let's not rewrite history and call anybody a pioneer when they were moving at the same rate (if not slower) than everyone else.

As far as this thread goes, my point was simple. If these women are racists, why would they join a structure where they'd be under the people they feel superior to?

Full integration of black service members is more accurate that, "the races. The military wasn't all white up to those points, because Hispanics and American Indians were serving with white soldiers in the same units. There was even one Japanese American servicemen that was integrated with white soldiers.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I never claimed they were racists.

I only stated that dismissing racism inherent in symbolism because there are cases where it is NOT racist is naive.

In their case here, they are just emulating a popular pop star (Beyonce) who has been running around pushing some agenda by trying to bring back black panther symbolism to her performances.

At least those are my thoughts on the matter.

Meanwhile, in the confederate flag threads!
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Meanwhile, in the confederate flag threads!

It applies there too. Stating that racism is inherent in all symbolism because there are cases where it IS used in a racist manner is also naive.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

So in short, the military AT BEST, reached desegregation an entire 6 years after the rest of the country was being told to desegregate. Come on, let's not rewrite history and call anybody a pioneer when they were moving at the same rate (if not slower) than everyone else.

You're pretty much flat out wrong here.

The U.S. military was desegregated by 1948.

The Brown v. BoE ruling didn't come down for another six years, Rosa Parks staged her little bus sit-in seven years after, and the Civil Rights Act wasn't signed for another 16 years.

African Americans were filling senior leadership roles in the military LONG before they were filling similar positions in the corporate world.

I am not arguing that the military has ALWAYS been some paragon of racial equality, of course it hasn't been, but it has always led American society in general in terms of racial inclusion and equality.

As far as this thread goes, my point was simple. If these women are racists, why would they join a structure where they'd be under the people they feel superior to?

By the "logic" you're employing here, no African American with racist leanings would ever work for a while man, or for a company owned by a white man, or for a white manager, and certainly not for a Fortune 500 corporation.

Do you not see how obtuse that argument is?

You can't think of a single reason why an African American woman, even if she were a racist, would accept an entirely free education at what is, arguably, one of the best STEM schools and one of the most prestigious colleges in the world, which comes along with a guaranteed five year contract serving in leadership roles of regularly increasing responsibility which, once she's done with her military obligation, will see her sought after by senior recruiters for private multinational corporations, global non-profits, consultancies, and every level of government?

And look, I'm not even arguing that these women (in part or in whole) are racist.

I don't know if they are and I don't know if they aren't so it really could go either way; and regardless, even if some of them are I very much doubt that ALL of them would be racists.

My position is simply that your pronouncement that none of them could possibly be racists because they will probably end up working for a white man is ludicrous.

Of course they're going to end up working for a white man.

Whether they become military officers, or fire fighters, or bus drivers, or factory workers, or marketing managers, or stock brokers, or nurses, or lawyers, or you name it - there's a damn good chance that they're going to work for a white man.

Racists are as self-interested as anyone else, and though they might hate the idea that they're working for a white man they're not going to live in a box under a bridge eating cat food when the alternative is a free ride at one of the best schools in the world and a couple of years of concentrated leadership training that will see them set for life.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

That is because you are wrong in so many ways, and have little understanding of the deck plate level of the military.

I spent four years at the "deck plate level" (although we didn't call it that) of the U.S. Army as an Infantryman.

I've seen and experienced both "hard" and "soft" racism in the military from both white and black Soldiers, from lower enlisted, from Company grade officers, and ESPECIALLY from NCOs.

Of course I've also seen and experienced how service can transcend race and make life-long brothers out of two guys who might have been raised and conditioned to hate everything about the other.

But the latter doesn't negate the former.

The institution of the U.S. military might be officially color blind but in my experience individual military members are as varied as anyone in the civilian world.

Some guys ride bulls, some guys ride mountain bikes, some read books, some smoke dope, some are vegetarian, some have graduate degrees, and some are racist.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

It applies there too. Stating that racism is inherent in all symbolism because there are cases where it IS used in a racist manner is also naive.

I've never gotten a clear answer on what the Confederate flag supposedly represents other than the Confederacy and its actions. "Heritage, not hate!" Heritage of what, exactly?
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

You're pretty much flat out wrong here.

The U.S. military was desegregated by 1948.

Better tell historians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States_Armed_Forces#World_War_II

By 1960, full integration of the races had been completed by the USMC, but racial tensions flared up through the next decade, a period of civil rights activism in the larger society.[7]

I am not arguing that the military has ALWAYS been some paragon of racial equality, of course it hasn't been, but it has always led American society in general in terms of racial inclusion and equality.

This is a bold faced lie at best. If we're defining 'pioneering' by some law ordered down and not really enforced or for that matter completed until 12 years after, sure. If we're defining it along sociological terms, you're simply wrong. It's the equivalent of saying that police agencies were at the forefront of racial equality because even in the early 1900s there were black police officers. That's absolutely ridiculous and contrary to all we know.

By the "logic" you're employing here, no African American with racist leanings would ever work for a while man, or for a company owned by a white man, or for a white manager, and certainly not for a Fortune 500 corporation.

Do you not see how obtuse that argument is?

The only obtuseness here is comparing working at a job you can quit any time you feel like it to the military. If the rest of your rant is based on that silly comparison, then you're doing it on purpose.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

I've never gotten a clear answer on what the Confederate flag supposedly represents other than the Confederacy and its actions. "Heritage, not hate!" Heritage of what, exactly?

I understand your confusion on the "Heritage" that the Confederate flag can be used to stand for other than the actual Confederacy, and setting the days of Jim Crow aside, I believe even you can agree (that is if you know anything about the south other than the evils of the past) that there is a different type of culture that southerners are known for. And even a different type of lifestyle. Take those things into consideration when trying to clear up your confusion.

I would also like to point out, that similar to the plight of various minorities in America (And I am in no way saying it is exactly the same), modern southerners are often judged by others (especially new englanders) with all sorts of negative stereotypes. As a result of this, a similar to ethnic minorities in America, southerners tend to confront these discriminatory stereotypes, not with a sense of shame in who they are, but with a sense of pride.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

If that were a group of white cadets, the narrative would be totally different and you know it.

No because there is no narrative. West point said no rules were broken, there rules don't involve race. Others are free to make up whatever stories and opinions they want though.
 
Re: West Point won’t punish cadets in raised-fist photo

Being that this concerns black cadets, the right-wing nut jobs cannot stand it when blacks do well. Anything they can find to screw things up, they take it. Despicable!

Nut jobs always see what they want to see . . .doesn't matter if they claim to be righties or lefties. . they are just nut jobs. People are desperate for a conspiracy here but there is none. West point investigated and made a decision. They can cry about it all they want.
 
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