We're Going to Give Away Artillery Which We Cannot Spare! Why?

[lwf]

The “modern day” US?

Apparently you need to educate yourself, because that’s flat out inaccurate.

United States and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And no, strikes on non-combatants are, by definition, not “legitimate warfare”. It’s not 1950 anymore where you’d be lucky if your bomb hit the right neighborhood.

Once again, there’s a reason Pakistan is one of the most anti American nations on earth.

I never said the US hasn't supported foreign governments in the past which supported terrorist organizations. I said the modern-day United States itself, read: the US military does not deliberately target non-combatants as a strategy. The Russian military does target non-combatants. The Russian military is engaging in terrorism as we speak as a strategic goal. The United States military does not do this.

 

[Tigerace117]

I never said the US hasn't supported foreign governments in the past which supported terrorist organizations. I said the modern-day United States itself, read: the US military does not deliberately target non-combatants as a strategy. The Russian military does target non-combatants. The Russian military is engaging in terrorism as we speak as a strategic goal. The United States military does not do this.

The US DIRECTLY supported those groups. The sheer desperation to avoiding having to face up to what we did wrong is truly a sight to behold.

Gee yeah, instead we subcontract our brutality to convenient allies to make us feel better about ourselves because hey, at least we aren’t personally getting our hands dirty. I hate to break it to you but that’s not any better.

 

[Fledermaus]

I never said the US hasn't supported foreign governments in the past which supported terrorist organizations. I said the modern-day United States itself, read: the US military does not deliberately target non-combatants as a strategy. The Russian military does target non-combatants. The Russian military is engaging in terrorism as we speak as a strategic goal. The United States military does not do this.

Tigerace is wholly invested in the Whataboutism schtick. Thread after thread it is what he does

 

[Tigerace117]

Oh look, the Cold Warrior is sobbing again because he can’t handle facing the fact that nothing exists in a vacuum independent of the rest of the world.

 

[lwf]

The US DIRECTLY supported those groups. The sheer desperation to avoiding having to face up to what we did wrong is truly a sight to behold.

Gee yeah, instead we subcontract our brutality to convenient allies to make us feel better about ourselves because hey, at least we aren’t personally getting our hands dirty. I hate to break it to you but that’s not any better.

So, because the US has done it through proxies in the past, it is therefore ok for Putin to do it directly in Ukraine?

 

[Fledermaus]

Oh look, the Cold Warrior is sobbing again because he can’t handle facing the fact that nothing exists in a vacuum independent of the rest of the world.

Dance.

 

[Tigerace117]

So, because the US has done it through proxies in the past, it is therefore ok for Putin to do it directly in Ukraine?

Who said that?

I’m just pointing out the fact that your claim was flat out inaccurate.

 

[notquiteright]

Not to mention that artillery isn't something that can be used in an urban environment without causing lots of collateral damage, and you need pretty solid training to use them effectively. That means it's likely that they will do more harm to their own county than help.

The Ukrainians have extensive experience with mdm/hvy artillery. They currently have 152mm cannons. Slightly different laying and loading procedures but it's not like trying to learn F35s after 20-year-old MIGS.

As far as urban. so little of the Ukraine is actually urban the artillery can be extremely effective. Russians can't position their artillery, rocket launchers in cities and the logistics tail travels open terrain.

Artillery- The King of Battle, and there is a damned good reason we grunts called it that...

 

[lwf]

Who said that?

I’m just pointing out the fact that your claim was flat out inaccurate.

So we agree that Vladimir Putin is a thief and a criminal and that Russia is a terrorist state actively engaged in terrorism against Ukraine and deserves to be treated as such by the international community?

 

[Tigerace117]

So we agree that Vladimir Putin is a thief and a criminal and that Russia is a terrorist state actively engaged in terrorism against Ukraine and deserves to be treated as such by the international community?

Only if the United States is treated in the exact same way for what we’re complicit in in Yemen.

Otherwise it’s pure hypocrisy.

 

[lwf]

Only if the United States is treated in the exact same way for what we’re complicit in in Yemen.

Otherwise it’s pure hypocrisy.

Except it's not even close to the same thing. The United States is not attempting to gain territory for itself in Yemen. And the civil war in Yemen was not started by the US anymore than the Russia-Ukraine war was started by Ukraine. The US military was attacked by an Al Qaeda cell that was based in Yemen. And the US is not targeting Yemeni civilians.

There is a night and day difference here.

 

[Tigerace117]

Except it's not even close to the same thing. The United States is not attempting to gain territory for itself in Yemen. And the civil war in Yemen was not started by the US anymore than the Russia-Ukraine war was started by Ukraine. The US military was attacked by an Al Qaeda cell that was based in Yemen. And the US is not targeting Yemeni civilians.

There is a night and day difference here.

Doesn’t matter. The US is providing tens of billions of dollars in support to regimes which are actively targeting civilians in hopes of reviving their stalled war effort and have been for years. The US is every bit as complicit as the Saudis and Emiratis. The US supplies everything from aircraft and munitions to intelligence support to maintenance aid to keep the coalition aircraft in the sky.

The Cole Bombing occurred over a decade before the current Yemeni Civil War kicked off, which makes that a laughably feeble excuse. Furthermore, Yemen as a war torn hellhole is a substantially easier place for terrorists to operate, which means that by helping the Saudis, we are making things EASIER— not harder— for groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Lol yeah, we “only” help others do it. As I said before, we pass off the brutality to convenient allies(most of the time) and think that excuses us because gee, we aren’t the ones getting our hands dirty.

The only “difference” is that Americans still don’t have the spine to face up to what their country does wrong. We are ever so quick to condemn others, but lack the honesty to face the truth about what we are complicit in ourselves.

 

[WillyPete]

I don't doubt for a second that Canada has arranged their replacement with superior equipment, as part of the deal. It would be pretty irresponsible to leave themselves defenseless against forest critters and avalanches.

International relations, including warfare, operate on straight power plays.

There's no real authority to appeal to, and no real mechanism to enforce the "law" which itself isn't universally accepted.

You can do whatever you can get away with.

The U.S. has gotten away with plenty, because we were generally fortunate to have the clout when we needed it, and we've historically played a pretty shrewd international game.

In Ukraine, the Russian have miscalculated and burned themselves badly. If it had gone to plan it would have been over weeks ago and we'd all be shrugging like Crimea, but Russia couldn't get it done. Now they reap a bitter harvest. They gambled and lost. All that remains is to see how badly.

 

[lwf]

Doesn’t matter. The US is providing tens of billions of dollars in support to regimes which are actively targeting civilians in hopes of reviving their stalled war effort and have been for years. The US is every bit as complicit as the Saudis and Emiratis. The US supplies everything from aircraft and munitions to intelligence support to maintenance aid to keep the coalition aircraft in the sky.

The Cole Bombing occurred over a decade before the current Yemeni Civil War kicked off, which makes that a laughably feeble excuse. Furthermore, Yemen as a war torn hellhole is a substantially easier place for terrorists to operate, which means that by helping the Saudis, we are making things EASIER— not harder— for groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Lol yeah, we “only” help others do it. As I said before, we pass off the brutality to convenient allies(most of the time) and think that excuses us because gee, we aren’t the ones getting our hands dirty.

The only “difference” is that Americans still don’t have the spine to face up to what their country does wrong. We are ever so quick to condemn others, but lack the honesty to face the truth about what we are complicit in ourselves.

Even if that were true, (it isn't by the way) it wouldn't excuse what is happening in Ukraine.

 

[Tigerace117]

Even if that were true, (it isn't by the way) it wouldn't excuse what is happening in Ukraine.

....except it is. Going “uh-unh!” is not an argument. The US has supplied the coalition with over thirty BILLION dollars worth of aid

Biden Doubles Down on a Failed Yemen Policy

When running for office, President Biden promised to “make sure America does not check its values at the door to sell arms or buy oil.” In the context of the Yemen conflict, fulfilling this promise may not be easy, but it is clear: In Biden’s own words, America must “end U.S. support for Saudi...

www.hrw.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian–led_intervention_in_Yemen#Reports_of_war_crimes

The Saudis, meanwhile, have committed a literal boatload of war crimes, while the US continues to support their war effort with everything from aircraft to intelligence aid.

As I said before, the US is every bit as complicit in the slaughter there. The only difference is that we can’t bear to bring ourselves to face reality.

 

[Juin]

I never said the US hasn't supported foreign governments in the past which supported terrorist organizations. I said the modern-day United States itself, read: the US military does not deliberately target non-combatants as a strategy. The Russian military does target non-combatants.

How did you come to that conclusion? It cannot just be by declaration. Adversaries of the US in wars have charged the US with targeting non combatants, adversaries of Russia have done that as well. Have you examined the charges before coming to your conclusions?

 

[Fledermaus]

....except it is. Going “uh-unh!” is not an argument. The US has supplied the coalition with over thirty BILLION dollars worth of aid

Biden Doubles Down on a Failed Yemen Policy

When running for office, President Biden promised to “make sure America does not check its values at the door to sell arms or buy oil.” In the context of the Yemen conflict, fulfilling this promise may not be easy, but it is clear: In Biden’s own words, America must “end U.S. support for Saudi...

www.hrw.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian–led_intervention_in_Yemen#Reports_of_war_crimes

The Saudis, meanwhile, have committed a literal boatload of war crimes, while the US continues to support their war effort with everything from aircraft to intelligence aid.

As I said before, the US is every bit as complicit in the slaughter there. The only difference is that we can’t bear to bring ourselves to face reality.

Whataboutism

 

[Juin]

So we agree that Vladimir Putin is a thief and a criminal and that Russia is a terrorist state actively engaged in terrorism against Ukraine and deserves to be treated as such by the international community?

Only if the international community is not run by thieves and criminals.

 

[Fledermaus]

Only if the international community is not run by thieves and criminals.

That is what Russia is run by.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Who said that?

I’m just pointing out the fact that your claim was flat out inaccurate.

So what do you think about Putins war in Russia?

Let's hear it.

"What about some things the US did" is not an answer.

 

[Tigerace117]

So what do you think about Putins war in Russia?

Let's hear it.

"What about some things the US did" is not an answer.

I think the Americans who turn a blind eye to our support of Saudi Arabia’s war effort, which is every bit as bad, are utter hypocrites.

 

[iguanaman]

Doesn’t matter. The US is providing tens of billions of dollars in support to regimes which are actively targeting civilians in hopes of reviving their stalled war effort and have been for years. The US is every bit as complicit as the Saudis and Emiratis. The US supplies everything from aircraft and munitions to intelligence support to maintenance aid to keep the coalition aircraft in the sky.

The Cole Bombing occurred over a decade before the current Yemeni Civil War kicked off, which makes that a laughably feeble excuse. Furthermore, Yemen as a war torn hellhole is a substantially easier place for terrorists to operate, which means that by helping the Saudis, we are making things EASIER— not harder— for groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Lol yeah, we “only” help others do it. As I said before, we pass off the brutality to convenient allies(most of the time) and think that excuses us because gee, we aren’t the ones getting our hands dirty.

The only “difference” is that Americans still don’t have the spine to face up to what their country does wrong. We are ever so quick to condemn others, but lack the honesty to face the truth about what we are complicit in ourselves.

Of course intent matters. In fact there is no crime without intent for many offenses. We were selling weapons to the Saudi's not "helping" them and we are no longer doing that anyway. Air to air missiles are not being used to kill civilians in Yemen.

A State Department spokesperson said the air-to-air missile sale is “fully consistent with the Administration’s pledge … to lead with diplomacy to end the conflict in Yemen while also ensuring Saudi Arabia has the means to defend itself from Iranian-backed Houthi air attacks”.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...ion-approves-650m-weapon-sale-to-saudi-arabia

 

[Tigerace117]

Of course intent matters. In fact there is no crime without intent for many offenses. We were selling weapons to the Saudi's not "helping" them and we are no longer doing that anyway. Air to air missiles are not being used to kill civilians in Yemen.

A State Department spokesperson said the air-to-air missile sale is “fully consistent with the Administration’s pledge … to lead with diplomacy to end the conflict in Yemen while also ensuring Saudi Arabia has the means to defend itself from Iranian-backed Houthi air attacks”.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...ion-approves-650m-weapon-sale-to-saudi-arabia

We provided them with both intelligence and maintenance support as well, not “just” selling them everything they needed to keep the war effort going.

Fighter jets, on the other hand, absolutely are....and the US has provided the coalition with lots of those.

 

[iguanaman]

We provided them with both intelligence and maintenance support as well, not “just” selling them everything they needed to keep the war effort going.

Fighter jets, on the other hand, absolutely are....and the US has provided the coalition with lots of those.

Biden has stopped supplying the bombs they are using in Yemen and has committed to working towards peace.

 

[Tigerace117]

Biden has stopped supplying the bombs they are using in Yemen and has committed to working towards peace.

The Biden admin is every bit as complicit.

“In response to the recent escalation, the Biden administration apparently has doubled down on support to the coalition, announcing the sale of additional fighter aircraft to the UAE.”

Biden Doubles Down on a Failed Yemen Policy

When running for office, President Biden promised to “make sure America does not check its values at the door to sell arms or buy oil.” In the context of the Yemen conflict, fulfilling this promise may not be easy, but it is clear: In Biden’s own words, America must “end U.S. support for Saudi...

www.hrw.org