Well Finally, Biden Moves to Sanction DUMA

[maxparrish]

In the first few days of the war I read an article suggesting that Biden's number one target should be the broad class of legislators and party members that enable Putin in the Duma. The theory was simple, make life difficult for the upper middle class politicians that travel to, and educate their children in, the west and the Duma will likely become very disenchanted with the war. Yet, as has been typical of the administration, it has dawdled and temporized in slow escalation...eventually arriving at the right thing after 4 weeks of bloodletting in Ukraine.

Why the US has a long history of procrastination and only using half measures, and then failing to see the reality a war is a mystery. But as Winston Churchill once said, "America will always end up doing the right thing, but only after trying every other alternative".

This is long overdue (as are the planes, and many other weapon systems) but better late than never.

US President Joe Biden plans to slap sanctions this week on hundreds of Russians serving in the country’s lower legislative body, an official familiar with the announcement said.

The move is expected to kick off a slew of new steps to punish Russia for its war in Ukraine.

Biden is expected to unveil the new sanctions on members of the Duma while in Europe for a series of snap summits this week. The US had already sanctioned some members of the body, but this week’s announcement will expand the list.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-new...s-03-22-22/h_15640ec1492778763193e36feaa0584d

 

[Hamish Howl]

Nice.

 

[phoenix2020]

Not sure the value of stating one's intentions days in advance of doing so. It gives them time to move, shift and hide assets. Silly.

 

[maxparrish]

Not sure the value of stating one's intentions days in advance of doing so. It gives them time to move, shift and hide assets. Silly.

Fifty to seventy years ago you'd run a CIA operation for years before anyone exposed you. And the last time I recall anything being kept hidden for several months was when the Bush administration was impounding Al Qaeda financial sources...and that only lasted till a book author and the NYT went public with the program.

Perhaps the executive branch just gave up as it is now a sieve. As soon as a President asks anyone to keep something confidential, 24 hours later its a press scoop on a front page.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Fifty to seventy years ago you'd run a CIA operation for years before anyone exposed you. And the last time I recall anything being kept hidden for several months was when the Bush administration was impounding Al Qaeda financial sources...and that only lasted till a book author and the NYT went public with the program.

Perhaps the executive branch just gave up as it is now a sieve. As soon as a President asks anyone to keep something confidential, 24 hours later its a press scoop on a front page.

Either that, or they're trying to use this as a pry bar, but with every intention of following through if the Duma doesn't turn on Putin.

 

[maxparrish]

Either that, or they're trying to use this as a pry bar, but with every intention of following through if the Duma doesn't turn on Putin.

They won't, not until it really hurts.

 

[Hamish Howl]

They won't, not until it really hurts.

Yes, but you can stretch these things out a bit. Prolong the agony.

 

[Grand Mal]

Fifty to seventy years ago you'd run a CIA operation for years before anyone exposed you. And the last time I recall anything being kept hidden for several months was when the Bush administration was impounding Al Qaeda financial sources...and that only lasted till a book author and the NYT went public with the program.

Perhaps the executive branch just gave up as it is now a sieve. As soon as a President asks anyone to keep something confidential, 24 hours later its a press scoop on a front page.

And yet rightists here keep demanding to know more diplomatic details, like the American public is entitled to know all the negotiations and international discussions the State Department is engaged in.

 

[maxparrish]

And yet rightists here keep demanding to know more diplomatic details, like the American public is entitled to know all the negotiations and international discussions the State Department is engaged in.

And in which specific context are you speaking of?

 

[joluoto]

I thought they were already under sanctions.

Oh right, that was the UK and the EU.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Don't just settle for financial sanctions. Include travel sanctions also, for the Duma MP's AND their families.

 

[Grand Mal]

And in which specific context are you speaking of?

In the specific context of the Ukraine situation, obviously. The whole world is focused on what's going on there and it would be foolishly simplistic to say the Biden administration isn't doing anything because they're not telling you what they are doing. And foolishly simplistic to think they're obliged to tell you everything that's going on behind the scenes. Wait'll It's all said and done. We'll get the story then. Then the armchair generals and diplomats can tell us what went wrong, what went right and how it should have been handled.
This is one reason why America is certain to be involved, because the present American President can be trusted to keep it to himself and his State Department, trusted not to tell Putin via Twitter what the west is doing.

 

[maxparrish]

In the specific context of the Ukraine situation, obviously. The whole world is focused on what's going on there and it would be foolishly simplistic to say the Biden administration isn't doing anything because they're not telling you what they are doing. And foolishly simplistic to think they're obliged to tell you everything that's going on behind the scenes. Wait'll It's all said and done. We'll get the story then. Then the armchair generals and diplomats can tell us what went wrong, what went right and how it should have been handled.
This is one reason why America is certain to be involved, because the present American President can be trusted to keep it to himself and his State Department, trusted not to tell Putin via Twitter what the west is doing.

I asked in what context because, as far as I know, "rightists here" are not "demanding to know more diplomatic details" regarding the war in Ukraine. None the less, it appears that most of what is being done, or planned, has already been either acknowledged or leaked. And every new step by the administration revels that what it could have done weeks ago, is only now being pursued.

Perhaps it will surprise to the world if Biden suddenly announces that planes have been delivered, or that Ukrainians have been trained on Patriot systems for weeks and they were slipped in unbeknownst to the public...but that is so out of character to Biden's previous actions and hyper cautious approach I very much doubt such will be the case.

What you see is what you get. What you don't see isn't there to begin with.

Sad, but true.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Sanctions don't work as intended is they are enacted all at once at the genesis of a crisis.

What is different here is that Putin does not care about sanctions, nor does he care about the wellbeing of Russia.

I don't think the 24 old Polish MiGs would survive long enough in this environment to make a material difference here. Not unless the pilots used them kamakazee style.

I think the best methodology is to continue pushing maximum quantites of the light shoulder-fired lethal weapons, and share CIA intelligence and NSA/NRO satellite intel with the UA High Command.

 

[Grand Mal]

I asked in what context because, as far as I know, "rightists here" are not "demanding to know more diplomatic details" regarding the war in Ukraine. None the less, it appears that most of what is being done, or planned, has already been either acknowledged or leaked. And every new step by the administration revels that what it could have done weeks ago, is only now being pursued.

Perhaps it will surprise to the world if Biden suddenly announces that planes have been delivered, or that Ukrainians have been trained on Patriot systems for weeks and they were slipped in unbeknownst to the public...but that is so out of character to Biden's previous actions and hyper cautious approach I very much doubt such will be the case.

What you see is what you get. What you don't see isn't there to begin with.

Sad, but true.

One never knows.
There were 260 Canadian special forces in Ukraine training their military under Operation Unifier, been there since 2015.

Operation Unifier - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They were withdrawn to Poland, according to CBC but There's no word about where they are now.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ukraine-military-training-1.6350186

The Canadian government will only acknowledge sending "multifaceted assisstance" and non-lethal military equipment but the government of Canada is notoriously closed-mouthed about the Special Forces units like JTF2.

"The Canadian Armed Forces currently provide training on combined arms, military engineering, military policing, medical support, and logistics, with an increasing focus on mentoring and large-scale collective training. To date, more than 12,500 Ukrainian security personnel have been trained under Operation UNIFIER."

Operation UNIFIER (Ukraine) - Canada.ca

March 2020 - Essential information to familiarize the Minister with the Department.

www.canada.ca

Point is, we don't know what Ukrainian troops might have been trained on, but somebody knows.

Edit- It's probably a safe bet that their training didn't include Patriot missiles, I don't know if the Canadian or Swedish militaries would even have those, but they must have been providing training that was otherwise unavailable in Ukraine.

 

[Rogue Valley]

What irks me is that the US government is sending Patriot missiles to Saudi Arabia. On 23 August 2021, SA and Russia signed an intergovernmental agreement on military cooperation. Riyadh was considering purchasing Russia's S-400 anti-air system. We know Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud is a murderer. We know the Kingdom is a theocratic dictatorship. It irks me when we continually kiss the ass of such dictatorships, who openly seek to jump into bed with our adversaries (Russia/China).

U.S. sends Patriot missiles to Saudi Arabia despite deteriorating relations

The Biden administration has transferred a significant number of Patriot antimissile interceptors to Saudi Arabia within the past month, fulfilling Riyadh’s...

www.marketwatch.com

 

[maxparrish]

Sanctions don't work as intended is they are enacted all at once at the genesis of a crisis.

What is different here is that Putin does not care about sanctions, nor does he care about the wellbeing of Russia.

I don't think the 24 old Polish MiGs would survive long enough in this environment to make a material difference here. Not unless the pilots used them kamakazee style.

I think the best methodology is to continue pushing maximum quantites of the light shoulder-fired lethal weapons, and share CIA intelligence and NSA/NRO satellite intel with the UA High Command.

And if that that were true of the Polish aircraft, then why should Biden or anyone else, including the Russians, care? Why then care if they are "lend-leased" by Nato to the sovereign government of Ukraine...these harmless old aircraft?

The answer is that both the Ukrainians and the Russians use the same models as the Poles (Migs and SUs) in this war and they fully appreciate what they do for their respective land forces. And the Ukrainians have lost aircraft, many in the initial strikes, but still retain about have of their modest sized air force who still fly dangerous missions. In providing a replacement it will bring the Ukrainian air force back up to prewar levels and seriously contest critical air spaces and Russian ground attack aircraft.

"The methodology" isn't wrong it is just insufficient. Everyone believes that getting more Javilins, stugs, nlaws, and perhaps 600 model switchblades one day will help. No one, however, should be foolish enough to believe that these alone will deliver the kind of victory in the shorter run that may be possible with planes, anti-radiation missiles, medium range ballistic missiles, shore to ship missiles, and serious medium and high altitude sams. IF the CIA or Nato in Poland is not training Ukrainians on any of these systems...its lack of foresight will cost more needless Ukrainian blood.

A blood-letting stalemate and never ending humanitarian crisis is not acceptable...which means a drawn out war like the Donbas isn't acceptable either. There are only two routes to an earlier end, and we have known this from the first day of hostilities: either provide maximized (not incrementalzed) sanctions and maximum (not incrementalized) weapons aid OR arm twist Zelensky into a conditional surrender (which I consider unacceptable as well).

And regardless of who is President or what party controls Congress, I believe those that fail Ukraine must be held accountable. There are no excuses for withholding planes, as every other former general, chief of Nato, and air force officer has said.

 

[HangLow]

In the first few days of the war I read an article suggesting that Biden's number one target should be the broad class of legislators and party members that enable Putin in the Duma. The theory was simple, make life difficult for the upper middle class politicians that travel to, and educate their children in, the west and the Duma will likely become very disenchanted with the war. Yet, as has been typical of the administration, it has dawdled and temporized in slow escalation...eventually arriving at the right thing after 4 weeks of bloodletting in Ukraine.

Why the US has a long history of procrastination and only using half measures, and then failing to see the reality a war is a mystery. But as Winston Churchill once said, "America will always end up doing the right thing, but only after trying every other alternative".

This is long overdue (as are the planes, and many other weapon systems) but better late than never.

US President Joe Biden plans to slap sanctions this week on hundreds of Russians serving in the country’s lower legislative body, an official familiar with the announcement said.

The move is expected to kick off a slew of new steps to punish Russia for its war in Ukraine.

Biden is expected to unveil the new sanctions on members of the Duma while in Europe for a series of snap summits this week. The US had already sanctioned some members of the body, but this week’s announcement will expand the list.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-new...s-03-22-22/h_15640ec1492778763193e36feaa0584d

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[joluoto]

View attachment 67381767​

South Africa will always blame the West, it's basically deeply rooted in South African political culture (because of Western support for Apartheid). India will always try to balance West and Russia, since good relations with both are part of their strategy against China and Pakistan. Bolsonaro's love affair with Putin is facing trouble with Russia suspending fertilizer exports, something Brazil relies on, still I doubt Bolsonaro will openly change his mind, but there are elections in Brazil in October, and the Trump wannabe is trailing far behind in the polls. Though for the southern hemisphere to treat this as something that happens far away and not important is natural, that's how we treat everything happening to them.

 

[Rogue Valley]

"The methodology" isn't wrong it is just insufficient.ce officer has said.

You embrace your military strategies, and I'll embrace mine thank you.

 

[HangLow]

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