Weekly socialist meetings indoctrinating the faithful

[Slartibartfast]

What's always interesting is those who claim the government is the solution forget that government created the problem in the first place... so why now should we buy into the solutions when they're the responsible party who got us into trouble?

And yes, we elect State representatives and local politicians ... we do not elect Presidents - that's the electoral college. I just want to make sure that nuance wasn't lost here.

What is "the problem"? Sure government creates some problems. Society in general creates others. Human nature creates problems. The environment creates problems. Etc. There is no end of sources for problems.

 

[Geo Patric]

What's always interesting is those who claim the government is the solution forget that government created the problem in the first place... so why now should we buy into the solutions when they're the responsible party who got us into trouble?

And yes, we elect State representatives and local politicians ... we do not elect Presidents - that's the electoral college. I just want to make sure that nuance wasn't lost here.

nuance, schmuance.... thrice there has been a president elected who did not get the majority of the popular vote and the difference has been neglibile in every one except the last when Bush beat Gore in 2000. THAT was a tragedy of epic proportion which the Republicans saved us from in the second election by sleight of hand in Florida, co-opting the electorate and coercing the Supreme Court.

The Electoral College is antiquated and should be done away with, but the notion that we do not elect our executive is not true.

geo.

 

[lizzie]

Right.

Because, as you know, Jesus wanted everyone to take care of each other and help each other and he specifically said "Oh, except if you form a democracy and control the government, then of course, screw them all." It has to be in there someplace.

Well, since Jesus said so, I suppose that means that our government should do it by force.:roll: Funny thing about using Jesus as an example is that based on what I've read of his words, he did not support coercion in any form whatsoever.

 

[Groucho]

Well, since Jesus said so, I suppose that means that our government should do it by force.:roll: Funny thing about using Jesus as an example is that based on what I've read of his words, he did not support coercion in any form whatsoever.

Do you realize that arguing that our government forces us to do things when we are the government just makes you look, well, kind of loony? Just asking.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Well, since Jesus said so, I suppose that means that our government should do it by force.:roll: Funny thing about using Jesus as an example is that based on what I've read of his words, he did not support coercion in any form whatsoever.

I would say he was acting pretty coercively in the temple when he cleaned it out.

 

[Ockham]

What is "the problem"?

Government making problem they then position themselves to fix, is "the problem".

Sure government creates some problems. Society in general creates others. Human nature creates problems. The environment creates problems. Etc. There is no end of sources for problems.

Name me some society based problems?

Environment affects are local, and I submit have not affected 310 million people at once like government does. Yet, the problems WITHIN our control we contribute towards... we can control government as it's a creation of humans. All problems within government - 100% of them, government created in the first place. Who pays for those problems? We do - the people living under that government's control. Who must "sacrifice" for those mistakes and blunders? We do --- government does not. I know they SAY things, meant to be inspirational and show that we're all in this together - bla bla bla. But we're really not.

 

[Ockham]

nuance, schmuance.... thrice there has been a president elected who did not get the majority of the popular vote and the difference has been neglibile in every one except the last when Bush beat Gore in 2000. THAT was a tragedy of epic proportion which the Republicans saved us from in the second election by sleight of hand in Florida, co-opting the electorate and coercing the Supreme Court.

The Electoral College is antiquated and should be done away with, but the notion that we do not elect our executive is not true.

geo.

Dude - time to let go. That chad is long gone and deteriorated. The fact whether or not you want to admit it or not is: The electoral college elects the President ... not public voting. If you don't like that fact, it's okay. Denial is a valid state of mind.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Government making problem they then position themselves to fix, is "the problem".

So, you are referring to problems in general then?

Name me some society based problems?

Environment affects are local, and I submit have not affected 310 million people at once like government does. Yet, the problems WITHIN our control we contribute towards... we can control government as it's a creation of humans. All problems within government - 100% of them, government created in the first place. Who pays for those problems? We do - the people living under that government's control. Who must "sacrifice" for those mistakes and blunders? We do --- government does not. I know they SAY things, meant to be inspirational and show that we're all in this together - bla bla bla. But we're really not.

I don't quite get what you are saying here, sorry. The statement seems disjointed and hard to follow. Can you please rephrase?

 

[lizzie]

I would say he was acting pretty coercively in the temple when he cleaned it out.

There's a significant difference between running a theif out of your house and making him pay you.

 

[Slartibartfast]

There's a significant difference between running a theif out of your house and making him pay you.

I disagree, ultimately, righting wrongs is about restoring balance and putting things in their rightful state, just as Jesus did in the temple, it is fundamentally no different as long as you use force.

 

[lizzie]

Do you realize that arguing that our government forces us to do things when we are the government just makes you look, well, kind of loony? Just asking.

I'm not too worried about my image or perception by others of my being loony. If we are a reflection of our government, then our collective image is corrupt and incompetent. I, and many others in this country are not.

 

[Geo Patric]

Dude - time to let go. That chad is long gone and deteriorated. The fact whether or not you want to admit it or not is: The electoral college elects the President ... not public voting. If you don't like that fact, it's okay. Denial is a valid state of mind.

uh huh... and when the batter swings and the ball goes over the fence... it wasn't the batter that hit the home run... it was the bat.

feh, already.
geo.

 

[lizzie]

I disagree, ultimately, righting wrongs is about restoring balance and putting things in their rightful state, just as Jesus did in the temple, it is fundamentally no different as long as you use force.

You can't "right" a wrong. You can stop someone from acting in an illegal or unethical manner, but an action is not erasable. You can stop yourself from behaving wrongly, but you cannot change a past action in any way.

 

[Ockham]

So, you are referring to problems in general then?

Government problems are 100% government made.

I don't quite get what you are saying here, sorry. The statement seems disjointed and hard to follow. Can you please rephrase?

Environment problems are localized and mostly temporary.

Government problems at the federal level affect 310 million people at once - ie., not localized. Government creates the problems then position themselves to fix the problems they created. They're position of "sacrifice" during troubled times is a red herring.

 

[Boo Radley]

Good lord. :roll:


There is a vast difference between private charity, freely and willingly given, and government-mandated wealth redistribution or general economic activity.

So, people can't work through the government, via elected representatives, to improve overall soceital quality? I suggest you read the arguments made by Baptist ministers during the great depression.

 

[Slartibartfast]

You can't "right" a wrong. You can stop someone from acting in an illegal or unethical manner, but an action is not erasable. You can stop yourself from behaving wrongly, but you cannot change a past action in any way.

If you erase the harm caused by a wrong, it is effectively righted. Sure it still happened, but the effects of the action are what make it a wrong, and if those are fixed, its good enough in my opinion.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Government problems are 100% government made.

The place where government stops and the people start is not easily definible, so I would disagree with that. If we elect a bad politican, it is a government problem caused by people for example. Not sure what the point of this statement is though. Perhaps my brain isn't working today.

Environment problems are localized and mostly temporary.

Government problems at the federal level affect 310 million people at once - ie., not localized. Government creates the problems then position themselves to fix the problems they created. They're position of "sacrifice" during troubled times is a red herring.

Not all problems that government has to address are government created though. Crime is going to happen whether or not we have government involvement as an example. But it is something that government tends to have to deal with. Also, government problems can certainly affect a subset of the population. For example, an administration snafu in the military might only affect military folks or even a subset such as a unit or platoon.

 

[lizzie]

If you erase the harm caused by a wrong, it is effectively righted. Sure it still happened, but the effects of the action are what make it a wrong, and if those are fixed, its good enough in my opinion.

You can't erase the harm caused. Example: if a murder happens, it cannot be erased. You can take the murderer off the streets, but you can't recreate the human he killed. If you remove a burglar off the streets, you cannot correct the effects of the action. The burglar robbed someone of money or goods, and those money and goods are not replaced. You've just removed a bad guy off the streets, making him less likely to repeat the action. With the slavery issue: you can make slavery illegal, you can't go back and erase the history of slavery- you can just make it illegal to repeat the action. This does not "right" the wrong. It changes the course of direction of human actions. What we now have in government is sanctioned theft by those who make the laws.

 

[Hoplite]

The real question is: Why do so many people fall for the Socialist philosophy?

Because some of us realize that unified effort towards a single goal is better than dangling a carrot in front of a group of people and letting them step on each other trying to get it.

I just got back from infiltrating a Socialist meeting. Their meeting hall was almost full, and I have it on good authority that there are weekly meetings all over the country, even in the smallest villages and towns.

Im sorry, but this has to be one of the worst pieces of hack journalism I've seen in a while. The author gives no details about where he went or even the people there. He doesn't say what the purpose of these meetings were or what the subject was.

I've seen cheesy spy stories with better information than this.

My bet, he pulled it out of his ass for a story. I've been to SPUSA meetings, they are nothing NEAR as insidious as this jackass paints "socialist" meetings.

 

[Groucho]

Um....

Can't tell if you're being serious or trying to make a joke here, Hoplite

 

[Slartibartfast]

You can't erase the harm caused. Example: if a murder happens, it cannot be erased. You can take the murderer off the streets, but you can't recreate the human he killed. If you remove a burglar off the streets, you cannot correct the effects of the action. The burglar robbed someone of money or goods, and those money and goods are not replaced. You've just removed a bad guy off the streets, making him less likely to repeat the action. With the slavery issue: you can make slavery illegal, you can't go back and erase the history of slavery- you can just make it illegal to repeat the action. This does not "right" the wrong. It changes the course of direction of human actions. What we now have in government is sanctioned theft by those who make the laws.

Murder is only one type of harm and you are right, it cannot be corrected. Theft can be if the items are either returned or replaced. Slavery is a harder one since nobody is sure what society would be like if slavery never happened, so that one is not answerable beyond people's opinions.

As far as the bold part, I am not sure what it has to do with the rest of the paragraph.

 

[Hoplite]

Um....

Can't tell if you're being serious or trying to make a joke here, Hoplite

Im quite serious.

 

[Groucho]

Im quite serious.

OK.

Then I must ask if you actually read the story, because it's an obvious satire and allegory, not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Hoplite]

OK.

Then I must ask if you actually read the story, because it's an obvious satire and allegory, not meant to be taken literally.

Hmmm, my bad. It's difficult to read that kind of sarcasm on the internet

 

[Ockham]

Not all problems that government has to address are government created though. Crime is going to happen whether or not we have government involvement as an example.

Crime is not a government problem. Crime would exist at some level with or without government.

But it is something that government tends to have to deal with. Also, government problems can certainly affect a subset of the population. For example, an administration snafu in the military might only affect military folks or even a subset such as a unit or platoon.

Crime is a societal problem.

Look at the top issues people are worried about?

Healthcare
Economy
Unemployment
Budget Deficit
Terrorism
Foreign Wars
Environment / global warming

The part of healthcare run by government - Medicare / Medicaid
The Economy - owned primarily by government and has to do with taxes and spending of a national budget.
Budget Deficit - included National debt.
Terrorism - Not the act itself but the response and the expense of blood and money to combat it - run by the government.
Foreign wars - all runby the government 100% as States and individuals cannot run wars without the government.
The Environment - partly involving the government - as in the EPA, laws, money, tax, ecology, science, etc.

The only issue I think is shared equally between Government and the private sector is the Environment.

My point is simple and I'm not sure your getting it yet. The issues senators, house members, Presidents, administration members talk about endlessly, are primarily things that are not right, must be fixed, or things that will soon break or lately - bankrupt our country. Politicians talk about sacrifice, tightening belts, paying MORE to help pay down debts which are unsustainable. How did things GET unsustainable? Well... government let them get that way. Our villain is the savior and the savior is our villain. The people who bankrupted us and who claim they are taking steps to save us all are one in the same.