Weekly socialist meetings indoctrinating the faithful

[Geo Patric]

I'm just saying, as a non religious person.
You're missing whole swaths of the Bible which state that wealth accumulation and fiscal prudence are good things.

fine. I do like being educated. If you get a chance, i would be ever grateful to you if you could show me where I have misread... if you can show me where Jesus of Nazareth said, suggested... hell even implied that wealth accumulation was a desirable as a moral objective.

thanks in advance,
geo.

 

[Dittohead not!]

fine. I do like being educated. If you get a chance, i would be ever grateful to you if you could show me where I have misread... if you can show me where Jesus of Nazareth said, suggested... hell even implied that wealth accumulation was a desirable as a moral objective.

thanks in advance,
geo.

Go ye therefore out to every nation, build up thine purse so that it mayest be full of the coin of the realm.

Epistle of Wall to the Street, chapter 3, verse 5

And, while thou art at it, forgettist thee not that sarcasm exists in the world.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

fine. I do like being educated. If you get a chance, i would be ever grateful to you if you could show me where I have misread... if you can show me where Jesus of Nazareth said, suggested... hell even implied that wealth accumulation was a desirable as a moral objective.

thanks in advance,
geo.

I didn't say Jesus, I said the Bible.

Proverbs 21:20 – Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man’s dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Found one, it seems to be an allegory(?) on prudent fiscal planning.
At least that's how I take it.

Luke 12:22-31 – 22 He said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they don’t sow, they don’t reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! 25 Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? 26 If then you aren’t able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? 29 Don’t seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. 30 For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek God’s Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.

Religious or not, texts from all the major religions instruct people on how to live a wealthy life and yes I am talking about wealth of money/gold etc.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I didn't say Jesus, I said the Bible.

Proverbs 21:20 – Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man’s dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Found one, it seems to be an allegory(?) on prudent fiscal planning.
At least that's how I take it.

Luke 12:22-31 – 22 He said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they don’t sow, they don’t reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! 25 Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? 26 If then you aren’t able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? 29 Don’t seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. 30 For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek God’s Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.

Religious or not, texts from all the major religions instruct people on how to live a wealthy life and yes I am talking about wealth of money/gold etc.

The one from Luke basically tells people to look to God for security and not to worry. It doesn't say you will be rich or should seek to be rich.

However, you are right in that there does seem to be a conflict between some of the things in the old testament and new about wealth.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

The one from Luke basically tells people to look to God for security and not to worry. It doesn't say you will be rich or should seek to be rich.

However, you are right in that there does seem to be a conflict between some of the things in the old testament and new about wealth.

For the most part, modern understandings/beliefs on wealth are extremely flawed.

 

[Slartibartfast]

For the most part, modern understandings/beliefs on wealth are extremely flawed.

Not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Not sure what you mean by that.

The Biblical meaning of wealth (and the actual meaning) isn't millionaire corporate executive or NBA star.

It's a person who saves and plans for the future.
So when people rail against the "wealthy" they are usually striking a people who lived a financially reserved life.

Kinda counter productive in making things better, if you ask me.

 

[Groucho]

I didn't vote for him because of his lies. I find it hard that people in this country want a socialist government that will steal your money by force

That's your problem then -- an inability to understand that not everyone agrees with you, or that people can disagree and still be reasonable and logical and not evil.

By your definition, ALL taxes are "stolen by force" -- so why have you not made this same complaint when Republicans imposed taxes?

 

[Slartibartfast]

The Biblical meaning of wealth (and the actual meaning) isn't millionaire corporate executive or NBA star.

It's a person who saves and plans for the future.
So when people rail against the "wealthy" they are usually striking a people who lived a financially reserved life.

Kinda counter productive in making things better, if you ask me.

In the old testament, wealth meant lots of animals and the ability to hire people to maintain them. Examples include Jobe, Abraham, etc.

The only two examples of wealth in the new testament I can think of is the guy who talked with Jesus (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 19:16-28&version=NIV) and the people who were struck dead. Both of those guys seemed to have an implied wealth in coin/possessions. Perhaps that is the difference.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

In the old testament, wealth meant lots of animals and the ability to hire people to maintain them. Examples include Jobe, Abraham, etc.

The only two examples of wealth in the new testament I can think of is the guy who talked with Jesus (Matthew 19:16-28 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com) and the people who were struck dead. Both of those guys seemed to have an implied wealth in coin/possessions. Perhaps that is the difference.

I think that may be the difference.
Most of the "wealth" referenced in proverbs was needed stuff, not necessarily luxuries.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I think that may be the difference.
Most of the "wealth" referenced in proverbs was needed stuff, not necessarily luxuries.

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

 

[Deuce]

The term "wealth redistribution" is just the latest hyperbolic buzzword used to justify selfishness. Some of my tax dollars helped build a school in Ohio and a highway in Arkansas. Is that redistribution of wealth? No, those things help the community as a whole, even though I might not directly benefit because I've never lived in either of those states. Similarly, safety nets like unemployment insurance, welfare, or medicaid help the community as a whole, because everyone has the safety net. A tight-rope walker may not always require the net, but they're better off with the net there anyway. Besides, desperate people resort to violence and crime. Welfare and food stamps can be the difference between scraping by and having to steal or kill to survive. It reduces crimes of desperation. The community benefits.

You may not agree with it, but calling it "unconstitutional," "theft," or "extortion" is hyperbolic nonsense that has no place in real debate. Debate using reasoning, not buzzwords.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

The term "wealth redistribution" is just the latest hyperbolic buzzword used to justify selfishness. Some of my tax dollars helped build a school in Ohio and a highway in Arkansas. Is that redistribution of wealth? No, those things help the community as a whole, even though I might not directly benefit because I've never lived in either of those states. Similarly, safety nets like unemployment insurance, welfare, or medicaid help the community as a whole, because everyone has the safety net. A tight-rope walker may not always require the net, but they're better off with the net there anyway. Besides, desperate people resort to violence and crime. Welfare and food stamps can be the difference between scraping by and having to steal or kill to survive. It reduces crimes of desperation. The community benefits.

You may not agree with it, but calling it "unconstitutional," "theft," or "extortion" is hyperbolic nonsense that has no place in real debate. Debate using reasoning, not buzzwords.

A community should fund it's own needs.

I have a question for you about welfare, food stamps, etc.
Many people of your political persuasion say that, taxation is part of the cost of living within capitalist society.

What are the expectations of people on welfare and other similar programs?

 

[Josie]

So....again....are we now okay with using Biblical scriptures to create policy?

 

[Slartibartfast]

So....again....are we now okay with using Biblical scriptures to create policy?

Personally, I was never against people voting for their morality (I may not agree with their morality and vote differently, but the practice in general is OK with me) and often morality is informed by religion.

 

[Slartibartfast]

A community should fund it's own needs.

I see the entire country as one community (of course with budget deficites, we are still not funding our own needs, but I think the principal generally applies)

 

[TurtleDude]

Does welfare pull people out of poverty or keep them in it? Maybe that should be a different thread.

I think there are examples of both but more remain than escape and it certainly is the goal of many on the left to keep people mired in dependency so they have to vote for handouts

 

[TurtleDude]

The term "wealth redistribution" is just the latest hyperbolic buzzword used to justify selfishness. Some of my tax dollars helped build a school in Ohio and a highway in Arkansas. Is that redistribution of wealth? No, those things help the community as a whole, even though I might not directly benefit because I've never lived in either of those states. Similarly, safety nets like unemployment insurance, welfare, or medicaid help the community as a whole, because everyone has the safety net. A tight-rope walker may not always require the net, but they're better off with the net there anyway. Besides, desperate people resort to violence and crime. Welfare and food stamps can be the difference between scraping by and having to steal or kill to survive. It reduces crimes of desperation. The community benefits.

You may not agree with it, but calling it "unconstitutional," "theft," or "extortion" is hyperbolic nonsense that has no place in real debate. Debate using reasoning, not buzzwords.

if the poor engaged in massive violence, this country would quickly be rid of most of the poor

 

[Slartibartfast]

I think there are examples of both but more remain than escape and it certainly is the goal of many on the left to keep people mired in dependency so they have to vote for handouts

I still wonder if you can cite this rediculous notion.

if the poor engaged in massive violence, this country would quickly be rid of most of the poor

How so? By what process do you envision the poor being gotten rid of?

 

[Geo Patric]

I didn't say Jesus, I said the Bible.

yes, i know. but... i said jesus. Hell's bell's, the Tanakh is a massive work that documents a nation of people over several millenia - you can find evidence of damn near anything short of tweeting in there. Besides, most of the texts preceding the gospels christians consider to be optional at best and irrelevant when inconvenient... which, of course, is most of the time. Jesus did not see The Law that way, but contemporary christians do not appear to think much of what jesus thought.

and yes, Luke 12 - It is pretty widely understood to propose precisely the point I was trying to make... as jesus says in the same book, same chapter a few verses prior to those you posted: "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth." (Luke 12:15 - KJV)

Religious or not, texts from all the major religions instruct people on how to live a wealthy life and yes I am talking about wealth of money/gold etc.

i would certainly beg to argue that. Certainly, the Tanakh heralds the merits of riches in parts... and makes the point that to pursue it is futile and unrewarding... see Ecclesiastes. But, if you can find any such glorification of riches in the words of Jesus (or Siddartha Gautama), i will gladly eat my words. They do not appear.

by this, i do not mean to denigrate or promote any over another. Nor do i mean to suggest that one should not be responsible with their worldly goods, only that accumulation is decidedly NOT a principle that Jesus promoted - quite the opposite, in fact.

geo.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I still wonder if you can cite this rediculous notion.



How so? By what process do you envision the poor being gotten rid of?

A final solution solution of course

 

[Slartibartfast]

A final solution solution of course

Now, I don't think turtle is a good or moral person at all, based on the things he writes, but I don't think it would advocate mass murder. At least I hope not.

 

[ptif219]

That's your problem then -- an inability to understand that not everyone agrees with you, or that people can disagree and still be reasonable and logical and not evil.

By your definition, ALL taxes are "stolen by force" -- so why have you not made this same complaint when Republicans imposed taxes?

The problem most people were uninformed and knew very little about Obama or his past

What taxes the expiration of Bush tax cuts will be one of the largest tax increases in history

 

[Slartibartfast]

The problem most people were uninformed and knew very little about Obama or his past

The problem is that some people believe conspiracy theory crap.

 

[Ockham]

WE are the government. WE elect them. WE can vote them out.

It always seems to me that when the government does things conservatives like and liberals don't, it's because it's the "will of the people" but yet when the opposite happens, the government is a tyrannical overlord crushing individuals.

What's always interesting is those who claim the government is the solution forget that government created the problem in the first place... so why now should we buy into the solutions when they're the responsible party who got us into trouble?

And yes, we elect State representatives and local politicians ... we do not elect Presidents - that's the electoral college. I just want to make sure that nuance wasn't lost here.