We Missed The Warning Signs....... AGAIN

[EMNofSeattle]

I know...apparently, the security company had complaints about him and yet it was the guy that complained who had to leave his job because the man was so hateful, racist, sexist and angry all the time that it became unbearable. Nope, no warning signs there.

If you knew how little it actually takes to be an armed guard in this society you would probably not be happy.

Security (at least until you get to a certain high end level) are low payed, un-unionized, few benefits, and in most cases companies see it as an arbitrary insurance requirement (ie we will ensure your facility if someone is there after hours to pull the fire alarm) armed guards make a little more, but a friend of mine is an armed messenger (the guy who picks up the cash from the safe at grocery store/gas station etc, there's two people in the truck, a driver and a messenger) and he makes like 16 an hour. and has worked there for 5 years. I am in my second year as a truck driver for a local company in Seattle and make 21 an hour for comparison purposes. it's a dead end job. and turnover is high. in addition unlike the police they almost never lay hands on people so they never attract media attention so even less accountability,

I'm not saying it's right, but that's why bad egg security guards remain on the job for years.

The security industry is all kinds of screwed up.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I heard on the news that there was a patrolman on the scene within minutes and engaged the maniac in a big shoot out before more police arrived. But it only took a few minutes to shoot 100 people.

After he barricaded himself in the restroom with hostages...it took three hours to get him out.

I believe that the initial "shootout" was with the off-duty officer already present serving as paid "private" security for the bar. One would assume that his job was to keep folks with guns outside. It took less time to shoot many people because no other exit was available - you take out the single guard, cover the only exit and shoot anyone attempting to leave and in the main open area. One would assume, that after having previously scouted the bar, that the shooter knew of the lone armed guard and the single exit situation.

 

[TurtleDude]

the warning signs weren't missed, he was interviewed by the fbi twice. He just was allowed to acquire his weapons of death regardless as if he had no clear intention to hurt a fly

to all the gun nuts on this forum who insist that it's only illegally acquired guns that are used in crime: well the worst mass shooting in american history just blew up that fat lie. I don't need to hear about motorcycle gangs importing illegal weapons. A complete loser such as this would never have gotten his hands on an AR if he couldn't just waltz into a random store. And the NRA will *still* put up every barrier possible to expanding background checks, much less banning totally non self defense weapons like the AR, because their hatred of victims knows no end

Killers in mass shootings used AR-15, thanks to NRA - NY Daily News

ISIS and the NRA, two peas in a pod

leftwing Bannerrhoids in the media are the ones that keep telling would be active shooters to use AR 15s. not the NRA

 

[TurtleDude]

If you knew how little it actually takes to be an armed guard in this society you would probably not be happy.

.

I believe the killer was a security guard and he actually was licensed to do so

 

[EMNofSeattle]

So you think it's logical that someone with a handgun and very little training is going to engage in a shoot out with a heavily armed maniac? Real life isn't a Rambo movie, Vance.

I've seen that video before....I always wondered why the crooks didn't shoot back.

in a closely packed environment like in this incident, handgun v rifle is a moot argument.

there's not enough distance by a long shot to give the rifle any advantage. the only advantage is greater ammunition capacity, but since a defender with a handgun is only trying to kill one guy and not fifty that's not too bad a disadvantage either. training is important, but mindset is far more. what it takes to confront a person like a mass shooter is the ability to literally stay cool under fire, having that can make up for a lack of training. remember your opponent is likely not that well trained either.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I believe the killer was a security guard and he actually was licensed to do so

that was the point, Moot brought up that one of the red flags of this guy was he was an armed guard and his armed guard coworker frequently complained to their employer and ended up resigning when they wouldn't do anything about it.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I believe that the initial "shootout" was with the off-duty officer already present serving as paid "private" security for the bar. One would assume that his job was to keep folks with guns outside. It took less time to shoot many people because no other exit was available - you take out the single guard, cover the only exit and shoot anyone attempting to leave and in the main open area. One would assume, that after having previously scouted the bar, that the shooter knew of the lone armed guard and the single exit situation.

was there only one exit?

That almost certainly sounds like a fire code violation, not that I'm an expert in fire codes, but I mean how is it that you have a heavily trafficked public night club and not mulitple egress points? go back to the 1940s and a night club in boston burned down with 500 souls because there was no emergency exits other then the main (revolving) doors....

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The story keeps changing. I just read that one officer working overtime as security for the club had a shoot out with the guy at the entrance. I haven't read where people were shot outside but it seems probable that some were.

Another thing that changed....most of the news articles say he called 911 before the attacks ....but in the tv interview, the police chief said the guy made all of two 911 calls from the restroom and dispatch called him back once.

It seems strange that after 30 or so people in the restroom crawled out of the hole that the guy followed them out of the hole, too.



Shooting In Orlando: What We Know Monday : The Two-Way : NPR

This timeline is all kinds of screwed up

 

[Moot]

This timeline is all kinds of screwed up

Yeah, I wish we knew more how it started.

 

[ttwtt78640]

was there only one exit?

That almost certainly sounds like a fire code violation, not that I'm an expert in fire codes, but I mean how is it that you have a heavily trafficked public night club and not mulitple egress points? go back to the 1940s and a night club in boston burned down with 500 souls because there was no emergency exits other then the main (revolving) doors....

It is unclear how many exits were open (at closing time). I have heard on news reports that a small "employee only" door (in the back bar area?) was used by some but that it emptied into an ally.

Shooting Witness Explains Why He Shut Club Door | The Daily Caller

Orlando shooting: Eyewitness account from within nightclub | www.palmbeachpost.com

 

[Moot]

If you knew how little it actually takes to be an armed guard in this society you would probably not be happy.

Security (at least until you get to a certain high end level) are low payed, un-unionized, few benefits, and in most cases companies see it as an arbitrary insurance requirement (ie we will ensure your facility if someone is there after hours to pull the fire alarm) armed guards make a little more, but a friend of mine is an armed messenger (the guy who picks up the cash from the safe at grocery store/gas station etc, there's two people in the truck, a driver and a messenger) and he makes like 16 an hour. and has worked there for 5 years. I am in my second year as a truck driver for a local company in Seattle and make 21 an hour for comparison purposes. it's a dead end job. and turnover is high. in addition unlike the police they almost never lay hands on people so they never attract media attention so even less accountability,

I'm not saying it's right, but that's why bad egg security guards remain on the job for years.

The security industry is all kinds of screwed up.

Thats gotta be rough. I've had a few low pay dead end jobs myself. Waitressing, assembly lines, hotel maid, bowling alley, cleaners... At that time, minimum wage was $1.60 an hour with no benefits, no insurance, no nothing.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It is unclear how many exits were open (at closing time). I have heard on news reports that a small "employee only" door (in the back bar area?) was used by some but that it emptied into an ally.

Shooting Witness Explains Why He Shut Club Door | The Daily Caller

Orlando shooting: Eyewitness account from within nightclub | www.palmbeachpost.com

Yes I'm trying to figure these out, I went by on street view

so here's what appears to be a wall leading to an empty lot, there logically should be a fire escape here



now when they say alley, is it this fenced enclosure at the dumpster?



or this side of the wall on the North side of the bldg?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yes I'm trying to figure these out, I went by on street view

so here's what appears to be a wall leading to an empty lot, there logically should be a fire escape here

View attachment 67202754

now when they say alley, is it this fenced enclosure at the dumpster?

View attachment 67202755

or this side of the wall on the North side of the bldg?

View attachment 67202756

The first article that I linked mentioned breaking a hole in a fence while someone held an exit door closed from the outsdie (because the gunfire was sounding closer) while the second article that I linked mentioned someone holding an exit door shut (from the outside?) preventing others from using it.

 

[Moot]

in a closely packed environment like in this incident, handgun v rifle is a moot argument.

My aren't you clever.

there's not enough distance by a long shot to give the rifle any advantage. the only advantage is greater ammunition capacity, but since a defender with a handgun is only trying to kill one guy and not fifty that's not too bad a disadvantage either. training is important, but mindset is far more. what it takes to confront a person like a mass shooter is the ability to literally stay cool under fire, having that can make up for a lack of training. remember your opponent is likely not that well trained either.

Here's what I heard...after the shoot out at the entrance with the armed security guard, the killer ran inside the building. This is where it gets fuzzy, did the guard go inside, too or did he stay outside as more police arrived? Because if the guard went inside continuing to shoot and forcing the shooter to take refuge in the restroom with 5 hostages...then when did the shooter have time to shoot 100 people...and time to go back and shoot the ones on the floor, again?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

My aren't you clever.

It wasn't intended to be. That's just how I write.

Here's what I heard...after the shoot out at the entrance with the armed security guard, the killer ran inside the building. This is where it gets fuzzy, did the guard go inside, too or did he stay outside as more police arrived? Because if the guard went inside continuing to shoot and forcing the shooter to take refuge in the restroom with 5 hostages...then when did the shooter have time to shoot 100 people...and time to go back and shoot the ones on the floor, again?

I don't know, I've listened to NPR, I read the whole write up in the Seattle Times which was quite lenghthy, and the timeline is still heavily fuzzy.

I'm thinking we're seeing the news in the rush for a story putting together statements from mulitple sources who witnessed the same event in different ways and said different things. I can't find a way it makes sense out of what's been published.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

My aren't you clever.



Here's what I heard...after the shoot out at the entrance with the armed security guard, the killer ran inside the building. This is where it gets fuzzy, did the guard go inside, too or did he stay outside as more police arrived? Because if the guard went inside continuing to shoot and forcing the shooter to take refuge in the restroom with 5 hostages...then when did the shooter have time to shoot 100 people...and time to go back and shoot the ones on the floor, again?

there was a mass shooting incident in 1994 where an Air Force security policeman armed with a 9mm pistol successfully scored a head shot on the perpetrator armed with an AK-47 style rifle at 70 yards, which is a very long shot for a pistol, so without making a play on your screen name, handgun versus rifle, is not always a losing proposition.

 

[VanceMack]

We'll probably never know. But I think mine is more probable than yours.

If that makes you feel more comfortable....

 

[Moot]

there was a mass shooting incident in 1994 where an Air Force security policeman armed with a 9mm pistol successfully scored a head shot on the perpetrator armed with an AK-47 style rifle at 70 yards, which is a very long shot for a pistol, so without making a play on your screen name, handgun versus rifle, is not always a losing proposition.

Yeah, but how many citizens are military security policemen and can shoot that well? Especially, if their hands are shaking because they're being shot at?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Yeah, but how many citizens are military security policemen and can shoot that well? Especially, if their hands are shaking because they're being shot at?

That particular man, andrew brown, actually bought a personal handgun indentical to his service handgun and spent hours practicing by himself, military handgun training is not that great.

same goes with police handgun training, they intentionally set a low bar for qualification that most anyone can pass with minimal instruction because instruction time costs money. once you get into like SWAT teams, special forces, etc that changes, but the average boot is given only enough instruction to pass a low standard test. It's the classic all american training model, everyone's a winner! for comparison purposes, in the USA police training is like 3 to 4 months, in Germany Poliziei train for years...

 

[Moot]

That particular man, andrew brown, actually bought a personal handgun indentical to his service handgun and spent hours practicing by himself, military handgun training is not that great.

Sounds like he took his job, seriously. I like that.

 

[justabubba]

why was a guy with all those warning signs able to hold a job as an ARMED SECURITY GUARD? that not the NRA's fault. That is not the fault of gun owners.

that he was able to bear an arm as lethal as an AR15 is definitely the fault of the NRA and its propaganda apparatus
notice how i just gave you backhanded kudos

 

[TurtleDude]

that he was able to bear an arm as lethal as an AR15 is definitely the fault of the NRA and its propaganda apparatus
notice how i just gave you backhanded kudos

You just make crap up. the law was enforced and he passed the checks. How is that the NRA's fault.

 

[Roadvirus]

You just make crap up. the law was enforced and he passed the checks. How is that the NRA's fault.

It's the NRA's fault because the gun-hating Left says it's their fault. They ignore the fact that the FBI is the one who f-ed up this time.

 

[TurtleDude]

It's the NRA's fault because the gun-hating Left says it's their fault. They ignore the fact that the FBI is the one who f-ed up this time.

The Bannerhoid left is still mad that the NRA cost Al Gore his home state and thus the election