We have met the enemy,... and it is us

Don't shoot the messenger,... BUT not much has changed since the first earth day poster (in 1970) illustrated an inconvenient truth about human nature!

Basically until people on the left and right side of the political spectrum realize that we ourselves are the enemy,... humanity will continue to die a slow painful death caused by a thousand cuts!

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/earth-day-story-us

Given human nature, few are brave enough to face head on a problem that is technically complicated,... thus has an uncertain future of deleterious effects,... which somehow will have to be mitigated w/ infrastructure that somehow has to be paid for (with a price tag that will impact everyones comfort and lifestyles).

Consider,... even if humanity in general was magically able to grasp the basic science of man made climate change (which is,... the combustion of various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.... creates CO2 a greenhouse gas that traps infrared energy the earth's atmosphere for a very long time),...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...th-agw-alarmism-today.462171/#post-1074733617

...the human nature problem is,… looking at what is creating the excess CO2 (that the planet cannot absorb) we see it's the so called "american dream" (i.e. a fancy house w/ all kinds of creature comforts, an SUV for personal transportation, copious daily amounts of animal protein at every meal AND an annual vacation in an exotic location - which requires an airline flight)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm

Point being aspirational personal consumption expectations are ingrained in consumers (not just in the USA but also all around the world),... so it is and continues to be an uphill battle to educate people about the big picture science (which is the first step toward solving the problem).

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

Said another way,... "simplistic" one dimensional solutions,... like the idea that, getting rid of capitalism is going to "magically" solve the problem of climate change,... won't change change a thing (AND only digs the hole we are in deeper).

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/09/solving-the-climate-requires-the-end-of-capitalism/

Fact is the capitalistic system which allows incentives for people,... will be needed to develop and build public infrastructure to adapt and correct for man made climate change.

Consider the alternative,... a system lacking economic incentives for people,... IOW cuba, venezuela, and the former USSR,... seems these economic/political systems are in greater turmoil than capitalistic systems (i.e. the USA, western europe, japan and "capitalistic" china),... bottom line if there are no economic incentives to address man made climate, what is going to nudge people to develop goods and services to fix the issue???

 

[Germinator]

You don't have rigorous experiments = you don't have science = you don't draw conclusions and don't invent answers

The only thing you can say is "we don't know". Trying to make a case that we should use the precautionary principle might be OK as long as you don't try to fool the public that science is involved(which is what the whole "scientific consensus" really is - fooling the public that there is science when there's no science)

just a simple guess but I'd bet good money that you like many man made climate change skeptics have no formal training in physics or math or chemistry,... so what kind of expertise do you have that enables you to assess the risk???

FYI not all "science" is physical experiments,... in quantium physics (for example) there is schrodinger's wave equation which is a linear partial differential equation that governs the wave function of a quantum-mechanical system,... said another way schrodinger's wave equation is a way to calculate odds

thought I'd point out "odds" because at university (while studying physics) I came across a branch of math called "game theory"

anyway looking at all the basic science as it relates to "man made" climate change,... IMHO given the present trends it is not a matter of "if" but "when" humanity reached a fatal tipping point (that only will be recognized in hind sight)

said another way the odds do not look good for humanity if people do not realize the game being played has fatal consequences,...

 

[Germinator]

 

[Germinator]

it's cyber Monday and I have a first world problem,... basically I have everything I "need" and the one thing I "want" a 64 Gb MacMini m1 max w/ 32 GPU "units" and a 2 Tb SSD,... isn't for sale (yet) by apple

I could easily afford the 16" 64Gb MacBookPro m1 max w/ 32 GPU "units" and a 2 Tb SSD,... BUT for the xPlane flight simulator setup I "want" to build it requires a small form factor computer

sigh,... the reason I mention holiday season sales is because seems people have lost sight of why there is a holiday season in the first place,... xmas is the "birthday" of Jesus

if Jesus were to walk though a mall (or even a church) I have a feeing he would not be recognized or appreciated because he would remind people that there should be more to life than "shopping"

I'm not against capitalism or going shopping,... but one thing too few people think about is,... there is a big difference between "wants" and "needs"

thought I'd point this out because seems too many people only worship at the alter of money and material goods,...








AND FWIW consumers have a very big impact on the environment

Consumers have huge environmental impact

You won't make big cuts in your environmental impact by taking shorter showers or turning out the lights. The real environmental problem, a new analysis has shown, is embodied in the things you buy.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Germinator]

since modern civilization produces all kinds of consumer products that people "want" AND since it is almost xmas,... people should be remined that a study found,... "Consumers Have a Bigger Impact on The Environment Than Anything Else"

http://www.sciencealert.com/consum...he-environment-than-anything-else-study-finds

sadly it seems too many people can't tell the difference between "wants" vs "needs"

...nor have many people given much thought about the BIG PICTURE (which was formed by connecting the dots)

FYI the not so subtle subliminal references to the deadly game of "russian roulette" is sadly an accurate way to illustrate what modern civilization is essentially doing to itself

NOTE "the probability that humanity goes extinct from natural causes in any given year is almost guaranteed to be less than one in 14,000, and likely to be less than one in 87,000"

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47540-7

digging deeper people should realize man made CO2 decreases the odds (of humanities survival) AND further digging indicates what complicates (i.e. "lowers") humanities survival odds is, effects of economic mismanagement (which was first looked at by MIT economists back in the 1970s)

http://www.vice.com/en/article/z3x...it-prediction-that-society-will-collapse-soon

the inconvenient truth is,... the science of climate change AND the role of how economics intertwines with climate change could take years for people to come to terms with on their own (if ever),... so perhaps the best way to communicate the systemic "existential threat" issue effectively is to use simple graphic "art"

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/science/sd-me-scripps-climatechange-20170914-story.html

BTW familiar with the expression "history repeats itself?!"

as the year 2021 nears its end, perhaps references of thousand of year old "flood" stories AND reminders that climate change has decimated ancient societies, is stuff people should think about and confront head on if they want to prevent bad things happening to humanity

http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology...e-age-civilizations-climate-change-01316.html

 

[HumblePi]

Suriname is the smallest independent country in South America. Thirty years ago, three hundred thousand of the world's largest turtle, the giant leatherback turtles came to Suriname to nest and lay their eggs. Today there are less than 50. The leatherback turtle has survived for more than a hundred million years, but is now facing extinction.

 

[Germinator]

Suriname is the smallest independent country in South America. Thirty years ago, three hundred thousand of the world's largest turtle, the giant leatherback turtles came to Suriname to nest and lay their eggs. Today there are less than 50. The leatherback turtle has survived for more than a hundred million years, but is now facing extinction.

the leatherback turtle (like human beings) are broadly classified as "biodiversity"

sadly too few human being who have the ability to do science are not pondering the big picture trends

 

[Germinator]

since it is the anniversary of the storming of congress, thought I'd point out if one actually looked at TRUMPS business history it is basically a "yuge" red flag warning

since the red flag warning was ignored by zealots who have perverted religious beliefs, it is actually not too surprised why there is a mass mob delusion that TRUMP is a "messiah figure"

it's been many, many years since high school but back then read that according to St Thomas Aquinas "temptation which comes from the enemy takes the form of a suggestion"

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Christ's temptation (Tertia Pars, Q. 41)

Was it becoming that Christ should be tempted? The place. The time. The mode and order of the temptation.

www.newadvent.org

since the devil acts through the power of suggestion I wonder is this what is actually happening?!

also seems the parable of the vineyard owner, is a theological way to view the topic of “climate change”


...a landowner set forth a vineyard with great care and lavish attention

he then entrusted it to tenant farmers

at harvest time, he sought his share of the produce

yet instead of giving the owner what was due him, the tenant farmers refused, ridiculing, beating, and even killing the servants sent to collect his share

they end by killing the owner’s own son

when jesus asks his audience what they thought the owner would do in response, they replied that he would put the men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who would give him the produce at the proper time

obviously, they did not realize that in the parable the landlord was actually describing them,... and that such a judgment would be upon them unless they repented

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 21:33-46 - New Catholic Bible

The Parable of the Tenants. -“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, fenced it in on all sides, dug a winepress in it, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenants and went off on a journey. “When the time for harvest approached, he sent his servants to...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Germinator]

the assumption of those who have a technical understanding of climate science or perhaps think they do (i.e. self identified leftist-environmentalists for example in the following article "link")

How we put out the fire

For humanity in the first decades of the 21st century, the only way is through. In The Ministry for the Future, the author imagines that path

www.resilience.org

is when average people finally wake up to fact that there is a problem with man made climate change there are technical solutions that can help humanity adapt,... BUT what I've discovered is few if any scientists or individuals w/ actual technological understanding, have pondered the economy AND monetary system complications

IOW in order for organized society to adapt to a world where mankind has changed the climate, requires a smooth running global economy,... looking at various trends indicates rough times ahead

to get a feel for the economy AND monetary system complications (i.e. the "triffin's dilemma" vs "the limits of growth issue" ) which is another problem that has to be confronted head on,... a good background primer on the topic is



FRONTLINE The Power of the Fed
http://www.pbs.org/video/the-power-of-the-fed-zzeu12/



MIT Has Predicted that Society Will Collapse in 2040




Why The US Dollar Is Doomed (Triffin Dilemma)

 

[Germinator]

You mentioned logic in a debate. I often find myself wondering what people are debating when I start reading threads.

To be fair, empiricism lends itself to sensationalism. You can't expect a debate based around facts to last since the very first fact in any debate is what people say.

If you want to grab attention with facts, then say something witty that's instantaneously gratifying.

A multi-media presentation! I love alternative styles, personally, and a lot of information can be conveyed that way.

the simple truth is students (i.e. people in general) are not taught how to think critically and prioritize threats (the exception being military personal, specifically pilots)

said another way military culture prepares their personal to face up to tough adversaries using intellectual framework like the OODA loop and "psychological training preparation"

as I see things the "military culture" approach is the only way it is possible to deal with a complex and intimidating issue such as manmade climate change because its basic human nature to bury one's head in the sand when confronted w/ a "yuge" problem

one thing I learned from various flight instructors is "situational awareness" and OODA analysis,... basically it is a thought process that was developed to keep USAF pilots alive AND understanding it is insurance of sorts from doing dumb things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

bottom line to solve a problem it first must be understood AND for a very complex issue such as "the science of man made climate change" vs "the role of economics and monetary systems" it requires "balls" AND "brains"

FYI WRT "psychological training preparation,..." military pilots have to under go SERE (SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE and ESCAPE) school,... which is another thing few in the general public are taught (or are aware of),... actually was about 12 and a Boy Scout when I first learned the art of "wilderness survival"

the following is a link to a PDF version of "the US navy seal survival handbook"

http://glow420.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/the-u-s-navy-seal-survival-handbook.pdf

if ya look on p. 45 of the PDF it shows a photo of a SERE instructor w/ some boy scouts,... consider myself fortunate being introduced to wilderness survival skills as a kid,... also learned back then that to survive in the wilderness one also needs to toughen up mentally

...sad fact of the matter is too few in political office have the "balls" AND/OR "brains" to confront a complex issues that involve science or economics

basically the one talent politicians do have is "branding themselves" to some group of partisan supporters,... just saying it takes a keen eye to notice what is actually happening,... for example look at the following image using the concept of the OODA loop

 

[XDU]

the simple truth is students (i.e. people in general) are not taught how to think critically and prioritize threats (the exception being military personal, specifically pilots)

said another way military culture prepares their personal to face up to tough adversaries using intellectual framework like the OODA loop and "psychological training preparation"

as I see things the "military culture" approach is the only way it is possible to deal with a complex and intimidating issue such as manmade climate change because its basic human nature to bury one's head in the sand when confronted w/ a "yuge" problem

one thing I learned from various flight instructors is "situational awareness" and OODA analysis,... basically it is a thought process that was developed to keep USAF pilots alive AND understanding it is insurance of sorts from doing dumb things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

bottom line to solve a problem it first must be understood AND for a very complex issue such as "the science of man made climate change" vs "the role of economics and monetary systems" it requires "balls" AND "brains"

FYI WRT "psychological training preparation,..." military pilots have to under go SERE (SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE and ESCAPE) school,... which is another thing few in the general public are taught (or are aware of),... actually was about 12 and a Boy Scout when I first learned the art of "wilderness survival"

the following is a link to a PDF version of "the US navy seal survival handbook"

http://glow420.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/the-u-s-navy-seal-survival-handbook.pdf

if ya look on p. 45 of the PDF it shows a photo of a SERE instructor w/ some boy scouts,... consider myself fortunate being introduced to wilderness survival skills as a kid,... also learned back then that to survive in the wilderness one also needs to toughen up mentally

...sad fact of the matter is too few in political office have the "balls" AND/OR "brains" to confront a complex issues that involve science or economics

basically the one talent politicians do have is "branding themselves" to some group of partisan supporters,... just saying it takes a keen eye to notice what is actually happening,... for example look at the following image using the concept of the OODA loop

It's a lot easier to remove the anxieties and urgencies of brains and balls if you think of them together as backbone. It's not about being emotionally fortified as much as it's about being fortified against emotion.

The problem these days, however, isn't psychological. It's legal. People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in because they're worried about being fined or sued and going to jail. Nobody really knows what their rights and responsibilities are anymore. The law has become a lake of thin ice because we're obsessed with compelling one another to learn from experience.

In law, learning from experience is a death knell. You don't know your rights and responsibilities until after the fact of things going wrong.

 

[Germinator]

It's a lot easier to remove the anxieties and urgencies of brains and balls if you think of them together as backbone. It's not about being emotionally fortified as much as it's about being fortified against emotion.

The problem these days, however, isn't psychological. It's legal. People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in because they're worried about being fined or sued and going to jail. Nobody really knows what their rights and responsibilities are anymore. The law has become a lake of thin ice because we're obsessed with compelling one another to learn from experience.

In law, learning from experience is a death knell. You don't know your rights and responsibilities until after the fact of things going wrong.

"backbone" (or fearless) alone isn't going work IMHO

consider the "enemy" in mentioned in the title of this thread "We have met the enemy,... and it is us" AND then ponder image in the OP

also suggest thinking about FDR in his inaugural address mentioned "we have nothing to fear but fear itself"



even tough I have never taken a formal psych class,... I have come to believe the biggest problem to over come is strong emotions

said another way if strong emotions can be over come, then it is possible to focus on the mission at hand

I'm in San Diego and live not too far from where the navy seals train,... and from what I've seen, those guys have "yuge" psychological discipline

basically in training they weed out individual who act on impulse or are irrational,... and they (i.e. personal in special forces) have a really heightened "situational awareness"

seals have to because in their world, it literally is kill or be killed,... this is why I mentioned "balls" and "brains"

the phrase "backbone" (which I understand to be "fearless") implies one is willing to stand up to some perceived danger,... as I see things sometimes standing up to danger is a pretty dumb thing to do

picture a soldier willing to charge a well fortified machine gun emplacement,... just saying a warrior w/ "backbone" who impulsively charges head on into well fortified machine gun emplacement is dead meat,... hopefully ya get the idea that in order to overcome an opponent, one needs to think about how to do it (i.e. develop a battle plan), as well as be willing to stand up to danger when the need does arise

the unfortunate truth is humanity is in an uphill battle against itself because people in general have little backbone to face the facts

only when people develop a backbone to admit we ourselves are the root cause of the problem, can the marketplace sell the technology (which I know is out there) to overcome the precarious position humanity put itself in

as the moment ignoring the enemy is akin to digging the hole we're in deeper (so I makes crawling out of the hole more difficult)

OR it might be thought of as weakening ourselves as our opponent grows stronger

in either case of metaphors, the solution is the same,... to fix the problem the first step is to admit there is a problem (this is a psychological hurdle that must be over come),... the science is pretty conclusive,... its average people and political leadership that is ignoring the facts out there which indicates [houstin] "we have a problem"

 

[XDU]

"backbone" (or fearless) alone isn't going work IMHO

consider the "enemy" in mentioned in the title of this thread "We have met the enemy,... and it is us" AND then ponder image in the OP

also suggest thinking about FDR in his inaugural address mentioned "we have nothing to fear but fear itself"



even tough I have never taken a formal psych class,... I have come to believe the biggest problem to over come is strong emotions

said another way if strong emotions can be over come, then it is possible to focus on the mission at hand

I'm in San Diego and live not too far from where the navy seals train,... and from what I've seen, those guys have "yuge" psychological discipline

basically in training they weed out individual who act on impulse or are irrational,... and they (i.e. personal in special forces) have a really heightened "situational awareness"

seals have to because in their world, it literally is kill or be killed,... this is why I mentioned "balls" and "brains"

the phrase "backbone" (which I understand to be "fearless") implies one is willing to stand up to some perceived danger,... as I see things sometimes standing up to danger is a pretty dumb thing to do

picture a soldier willing to charge a well fortified machine gun emplacement,... just saying a warrior w/ "backbone" who impulsively charges head on into well fortified machine gun emplacement is dead meat,... hopefully ya get the idea that in order to overcome an opponent, one needs to think about how to do it (i.e. develop a battle plan), as well as be willing to stand up to danger when the need does arise

the unfortunate truth is humanity is in an uphill battle against itself because people in general have little backbone to face the facts

only when people develop a backbone to admit we ourselves are the root cause of the problem, can the marketplace sell the technology (which I know is out there) to overcome the precarious position humanity put itself in

as the moment ignoring the enemy is akin to digging the hole we're in deeper (so I makes crawling out of the hole more difficult)

OR it might be thought of as weakening ourselves as our opponent grows stronger

in either case of metaphors, the solution is the same,... to fix the problem the first step is to admit there is a problem (this is a psychological hurdle that must be over come),... the science is pretty conclusive,... its average people and political leadership that is ignoring the facts out there which indicates [houstin] "we have a problem"

Backbone is more about remaining steadfast under pressure. You take a calm, collected, and cool approach before decisively unleashing your concentration.

Balls and brains imply cunning, but cunning creates serious long-term loyalty and integrity problems not to mention you can't really use cunning in legal contexts unless you're talking about manipulating the law.

 

[Germinator]

Backbone is more about remaining steadfast under pressure. You take a calm, collected, and cool approach before decisively unleashing your concentration.

Balls and brains imply cunning, but cunning creates serious long-term loyalty and integrity problems not to mention you can't really use cunning in legal contexts unless you're talking about manipulating the law.

seems we run in two different social circles,... I grew up in a town w/ a big military presense and just sayin I don't think some of the marines I've seen could locate a "cunning" if you asked them,... but generally they do know do know the difference between the brain, guts and balls

"cunning" seems to be more a term associated w/ business and politics

"more balls than brains" which also also implies recklessness seems to be more a term associated w/ business and politics (I know for a fact that US military culture frowns on recklessness)

I guess "backbone" to standup under fire might be a good thing,... but the marines that I mentioned who could not locate a "cunning" if you asked them,... have enuf "brains" to know that cover under fire could save their sorry ass

anyway FWIW here is something I found interesting

A military perspective on climate change could bridge the gap between believers and doubters

US military leaders have to plan for operations all over the world, so they can’t afford to ignore climate change or debate its causes.

theconversation.com

 

[XDU]

seems we run in two different social circles,... I grew up in a town w/ a big military presense and just sayin I don't think some of the marines I've seen could locate a "cunning" if you asked them,... but generally they do know do know the difference between the brain, guts and balls

"cunning" seems to be more a term associated w/ business and politics

"more balls than brains" which also also implies recklessness seems to be more a term associated w/ business and politics (I know for a fact that US military culture frowns on recklessness)

I guess "backbone" to standup under fire might be a good thing,... but the marines that I mentioned who could not locate a "cunning" if you asked them,... have enuf "brains" to know that cover under fire could save their sorry ass

anyway FWIW here is something I found interesting

A military perspective on climate change could bridge the gap between believers and doubters

US military leaders have to plan for operations all over the world, so they can’t afford to ignore climate change or debate its causes.

theconversation.com

I took your exact position before getting humiliated by marines growing up who said I was somewhere between naive and arrogant. Marines in Vietnam who engaged in COIN ops against the Vietcong are a classic example of having cunning personalities from putting brain and balls together, especially since they were the most successful holdouts during the conflict.

The point of backbone is making sure you're assertive, not reckless nor worried. You need to be decisively balanced and confident to act without fear while believing in the plan and knowing how to adapt when things go SNAFUBAR.

 

[mrjurrs]

Don't shoot the messenger,... BUT not much has changed since the first earth day poster (in 1970) illustrated an inconvenient truth about human nature!

Basically until people on the left and right side of the political spectrum realize that we ourselves are the enemy,... humanity will continue to die a slow painful death caused by a thousand cuts!

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/earth-day-story-us

Given human nature, few are brave enough to face head on a problem that is technically complicated,... thus has an uncertain future of deleterious effects,... which somehow will have to be mitigated w/ infrastructure that somehow has to be paid for (with a price tag that will impact everyones comfort and lifestyles).

Consider,... even if humanity in general was magically able to grasp the basic science of man made climate change (which is,... the combustion of various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.... creates CO2 a greenhouse gas that traps infrared energy the earth's atmosphere for a very long time),...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...th-agw-alarmism-today.462171/#post-1074733617

...the human nature problem is,… looking at what is creating the excess CO2 (that the planet cannot absorb) we see it's the so called "american dream" (i.e. a fancy house w/ all kinds of creature comforts, an SUV for personal transportation, copious daily amounts of animal protein at every meal AND an annual vacation in an exotic location - which requires an airline flight)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm

Point being aspirational personal consumption expectations are ingrained in consumers (not just in the USA but also all around the world),... so it is and continues to be an uphill battle to educate people about the big picture science (which is the first step toward solving the problem).

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

Said another way,... "simplistic" one dimensional solutions,... like the idea that, getting rid of capitalism is going to "magically" solve the problem of climate change,... won't change change a thing (AND only digs the hole we are in deeper).

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/09/solving-the-climate-requires-the-end-of-capitalism/

Fact is the capitalistic system which allows incentives for people,... will be needed to develop and build public infrastructure to adapt and correct for man made climate change.

Consider the alternative,... a system lacking economic incentives for people,... IOW cuba, venezuela, and the former USSR,... seems these economic/political systems are in greater turmoil than capitalistic systems (i.e. the USA, western europe, japan and "capitalistic" china),... bottom line if there are no economic incentives to address man made climate, what is going to nudge people to develop goods and services to fix the issue???

Imo, the entire 'nobody can do everything, but everyone can do something' misses the point. Producers need to pay for their plastic use in advance, not ask the consumer to return their products. Companies pollute because it is in their financial interest. Should car buyers be required to check their smog or should the producers be required to build non-polluting cars?

 

[Germinator]

I took your exact position before getting humiliated by marines growing up who said I was somewhere between naive and arrogant. Marines in Vietnam who engaged in COIN ops against the Vietcong are a classic example of having cunning personalities from putting brain and balls together, especially since they were the most successful holdouts during the conflict.

The point of backbone is making sure you're assertive, not reckless nor worried. You need to be decisively balanced and confident to act without fear while believing in the plan and knowing how to adapt when things go SNAFUBAR.

COIN ops behind the lines and operation pretty much alone (from what I gather) I'll agree requires "backbone" as you put it,...

and since you brought up SNAFUBAR as I read the tea leaves seems modern global humanity is heading that direction (and don't think many have the "backbone" to face the reality)

 

[Germinator]

Imo, the entire 'nobody can do everything, but everyone can do something' misses the point. Producers need to pay for their plastic use in advance, not ask the consumer to return their products. Companies pollute because it is in their financial interest. Should car buyers be required to check their smog or should the producers be required to build non-polluting cars?

actually think the price consumers get back should be increased because this will be an economic incentive for them to do the right thing,... just saying if the price is paid ahead of time,... people will just throw stuff wherever they are (and no one will bother picking up stuff since there is NO economic incentive)

 

[mrjurrs]

actually think the price consumers get back should be increased because this will be an economic incentive for them to do the right thing,... just saying if the price is paid ahead of time,... people will just throw stuff wherever they are (and no one will bother picking up stuff since there is NO economic incentive)

The bring back incentive doesn't work anywhere in the world. As long as producers can place the negative costs on the consumers it will never change.

 

[American]

And they won't do anything. These three countries (I am a resident of one of them) regard the "green fight" against CO2 as a tool to contain their economy.
You have the means and a developed economy to play ecology, your population is financially better off, whereas Russia, China and India are at a completely different level and to damage their industry and energy is primarily to hit the pocket of the population.
If you are so concerned about the environment, then subsidize the financial losses to Russia, India and China. No, don't you agree? But then I'm sorry, to strangle their poor population leaving these countries without industry disagree. Take offense, do whatever you want.

**** China, Russia and India, and **** the Paris Climate Agreement. If those three countries want to play with the big boys, then meet the CO2 standards, if they don't want to meet them, then shut off your power plants and factories now! End of story. So until they meet the same standards, we quit the agreement.

 

[American]

There is lots of truth, that "we" the American public is being played!

Looking at climate change from a scientist point of view,... I know there are uncertainties w/ scientific models.

Simple truth is, climate science is a very complex issue AND models (as good as they are) will never be exact since there are many degrees of freedom (IOW lots of things that can change, which is why short term weather forecasts as good as they are,... will never be exact).

Having said that,... long term climate models actually can be more exact (in their ballpark "figures"),... this is because the only two variables that really count are CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere (since CO2 is a green house gas that traps infrared energy) and the relative long term orbit of the planet earth (basically when the earth's orbit is further away from the sun for long periods of time, the earth goes through an ice age).

At the present moment the earth is slowly drifting away from the sun (so we expect the plant to be slowly cooling off),... BUT something just happened that climate scientists found shocking,... there was rain on top of a mountain of ice, in the arctic region.

The reason "rain fall" is shocking is because the arctic region has been frozen since the time of christ AND as I just mentioned science indicates the earth is slowly drifting away from the sun,... so we should expect the earth's average temperature to slowly be decreasing.

Bottom line,.... "rain fall" on top of a mountain of ice in the arctic region is a big clue that that increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, is warming up the planet.

As a kid went to catholic schools before going to university to study physics,... anyway as I see things, rain in the arctic on top of a mountain of ice should be akin to an "snowball's chance in hell"

BUT looking at the basic science,... starting around the "industrial revolution" we see humanity has put gigatons of measurable CO2 into the earths atmosphere (by burning various fossil fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.)

NOTE the amount of CO2 placed in the atmosphere is so large that scientists use the "gigaton" measurement (i.e. 1 "gigaton" is the weight of one cubic km of water)

Basically the one's playing the American public are,... various special interests that want to keep on selling consumers AND voters, on the idea that burning fossil fuels do no harm long term harm.

Think about it,... if the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership told the American public the truth that it is not a matter of "if" but "when" there will be global problems like flooding,... the American public would demand changes be made.

FYI figure the illustrations helps get the point across that looking at the existing trends,... humanity is going to face a crisis of biblical proportions (the only question is "WHEN" not "IF").

Said another way if the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership tell the American public "comfortable lies,..." then the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership, get to keep on milking the system a while longer (i.e. padding their wallets).

Politicians on both sides of the political aisle are more or less the same,... this is because "scientifically" talentless idiots on the left distract their zealot like minded supporters w/ issues like: BLM, critical race theory, gay rights, etc.,etc., etc.

Meanwhile "scientifically" talentless idiots on the right distract their zealot like minded supporters w/ issues like: abortion right to life issues, foreign immigration, 2nd amendment concerns, etc.,etc., etc.

The honest truth is, the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership (from all over the world) are playing a game of chicken,... they are hoping someone else acknowledges the problems AND acts first,... because until that happens "scientifically" talentless idiots in political positions of power get to keep on milking the system (meanwhile the first ones to get hurt are the little guys).

Explain how 6.3# of gasoline becomes 20# of CO2. Did the gravitational constant change?

 

[ecofarm]

**** China, Russia and India, and **** the Paris Climate Agreement. If those three countries want to play with the big boys, then meet the CO2 standards, if they don't want to meet them, then shut off your power plants and factories now! End of story. So until they meet the same standards, we quit the agreement.

That's ignorant. The US rose to prosperity on pollution and now you want to cut off other countries before they get on their feet? What dumbass horseshit. Do you know anything about any of this?