• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

We have met the enemy,... and it is us

14%20Pogo%20Earth%20Day%201970%20A_0.jpeg


Don't shoot the messenger,... BUT not much has changed since the first earth day poster (in 1970) illustrated an inconvenient truth about human nature!

Basically until people on the left and right side of the political spectrum realize that we ourselves are the enemy,... humanity will continue to die a slow painful death caused by a thousand cuts!

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/earth-day-story-us

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png


Given human nature, few are brave enough to face head on a problem that is technically complicated,... thus has an uncertain future of deleterious effects,... which somehow will have to be mitigated w/ infrastructure that somehow has to be paid for (with a price tag that will impact everyones comfort and lifestyles).

Consider,... even if humanity in general was magically able to grasp the basic science of man made climate change (which is,... the combustion of various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.... creates CO2 a greenhouse gas that traps infrared energy the earth's atmosphere for a very long time),...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...th-agw-alarmism-today.462171/#post-1074733617

...the human nature problem is,… looking at what is creating the excess CO2 (that the planet cannot absorb) we see it's the so called "american dream" (i.e. a fancy house w/ all kinds of creature comforts, an SUV for personal transportation, copious daily amounts of animal protein at every meal AND an annual vacation in an exotic location - which requires an airline flight)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm

Point being aspirational personal consumption expectations are ingrained in consumers (not just in the USA but also all around the world),... so it is and continues to be an uphill battle to educate people about the big picture science (which is the first step toward solving the problem).

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

Said another way,... "simplistic" one dimensional solutions,... like the idea that, getting rid of capitalism is going to "magically" solve the problem of climate change,... won't change change a thing (AND only digs the hole we are in deeper).

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/09/solving-the-climate-requires-the-end-of-capitalism/

Fact is the capitalistic system which allows incentives for people,... will be needed to develop and build public infrastructure to adapt and correct for man made climate change.

Consider the alternative,... a system lacking economic incentives for people,... IOW cuba, venezuela, and the former USSR,... seems these economic/political systems are in greater turmoil than capitalistic systems (i.e. the USA, western europe, japan and "capitalistic" china),... bottom line if there are no economic incentives to address man made climate, what is going to nudge people to develop goods and services to fix the issue???
 
Last edited:

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You don't have rigorous experiments = you don't have science = you don't draw conclusions and don't invent answers

The only thing you can say is "we don't know". Trying to make a case that we should use the precautionary principle might be OK as long as you don't try to fool the public that science is involved(which is what the whole "scientific consensus" really is - fooling the public that there is science when there's no science)

just a simple guess but I'd bet good money that you like many man made climate change skeptics have no formal training in physics or math or chemistry,... so what kind of expertise do you have that enables you to assess the risk???

FYI not all "science" is physical experiments,... in quantium physics (for example) there is schrodinger's wave equation which is a linear partial differential equation that governs the wave function of a quantum-mechanical system,... said another way schrodinger's wave equation is a way to calculate odds

thought I'd point out "odds" because at university (while studying physics) I came across a branch of math called "game theory"

anyway looking at all the basic science as it relates to "man made" climate change,... IMHO given the present trends it is not a matter of "if" but "when" humanity reached a fatal tipping point (that only will be recognized in hind sight)

said another way the odds do not look good for humanity if people do not realize the game being played has fatal consequences,...

4x6-PC-Increasing-CO2-its-just-a-game.png
 

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
it's cyber Monday and I have a first world problem,... basically I have everything I "need" and the one thing I "want" a 64 Gb MacMini m1 max w/ 32 GPU "units" and a 2 Tb SSD,... isn't for sale (yet) by apple

I could easily afford the 16" 64Gb MacBookPro m1 max w/ 32 GPU "units" and a 2 Tb SSD,... BUT for the xPlane flight simulator setup I "want" to build it requires a small form factor computer

sigh,... the reason I mention holiday season sales is because seems people have lost sight of why there is a holiday season in the first place,... xmas is the "birthday" of Jesus

if Jesus were to walk though a mall (or even a church) I have a feeing he would not be recognized or appreciated because he would remind people that there should be more to life than "shopping"

2021-catholic-BND-01.png


2021-catholic-BND-02.png


I'm not against capitalism or going shopping,... but one thing too few people think about is,... there is a big difference between "wants" and "needs"

thought I'd point this out because seems too many people only worship at the alter of money and material goods,...








AND FWIW consumers have a very big impact on the environment


 

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
since modern civilization produces all kinds of consumer products that people "want" AND since it is almost xmas,... people should be remined that a study found,... "Consumers Have a Bigger Impact on The Environment Than Anything Else"

http://www.sciencealert.com/consum...he-environment-than-anything-else-study-finds

sadly it seems too many people can't tell the difference between "wants" vs "needs"

...nor have many people given much thought about the BIG PICTURE (which was formed by connecting the dots)


4x6-PC-The-Goldilocks-Principle-global-average-temperature-just-right.png




4x6-PC-keeling-curve-increasing-CO2-its-just-a-game.png



FYI the not so subtle subliminal references to the deadly game of "russian roulette" is sadly an accurate way to illustrate what modern civilization is essentially doing to itself

NOTE "the probability that humanity goes extinct from natural causes in any given year is almost guaranteed to be less than one in 14,000, and likely to be less than one in 87,000"

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47540-7

digging deeper people should realize man made CO2 decreases the odds (of humanities survival) AND further digging indicates what complicates (i.e. "lowers") humanities survival odds is, effects of economic mismanagement (which was first looked at by MIT economists back in the 1970s)

http://www.vice.com/en/article/z3x...it-prediction-that-society-will-collapse-soon

the inconvenient truth is,... the science of climate change AND the role of how economics intertwines with climate change could take years for people to come to terms with on their own (if ever),... so perhaps the best way to communicate the systemic "existential threat" issue effectively is to use simple graphic "art"

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/science/sd-me-scripps-climatechange-20170914-story.html

BTW familiar with the expression "history repeats itself?!"

4x6-PC-rain-at-SUMMIT-STATION-a-snowball-s-chance-in-hell.png



as the year 2021 nears its end, perhaps references of thousand of year old "flood" stories AND reminders that climate change has decimated ancient societies, is stuff people should think about and confront head on if they want to prevent bad things happening to humanity

http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology...e-age-civilizations-climate-change-01316.html
 

HumblePi

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
24,117
Reaction score
15,582
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Suriname is the smallest independent country in South America. Thirty years ago, three hundred thousand of the world's largest turtle, the giant leatherback turtles came to Suriname to nest and lay their eggs. Today there are less than 50. The leatherback turtle has survived for more than a hundred million years, but is now facing extinction.

 

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Suriname is the smallest independent country in South America. Thirty years ago, three hundred thousand of the world's largest turtle, the giant leatherback turtles came to Suriname to nest and lay their eggs. Today there are less than 50. The leatherback turtle has survived for more than a hundred million years, but is now facing extinction.




4x6-PC-The-Great-Climate-Experiment-Scientific-American.png


the leatherback turtle (like human beings) are broadly classified as "biodiversity"

sadly too few human being who have the ability to do science are not pondering the big picture trends
 

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
since it is the anniversary of the storming of congress, thought I'd point out if one actually looked at TRUMPS business history it is basically a "yuge" red flag warning

4x6-PC-TRUMP-RED-FLAG.png


since the red flag warning was ignored by zealots who have perverted religious beliefs, it is actually not too surprised why there is a mass mob delusion that TRUMP is a "messiah figure"

political-prosperity-gospel-believers.png


it's been many, many years since high school but back then read that according to St Thomas Aquinas "temptation which comes from the enemy takes the form of a suggestion"


since the devil acts through the power of suggestion I wonder is this what is actually happening?!

TRUMP-A-Very-Stable-Genius-who-is-being-influenced-by-the-devil.png


also seems the parable of the vineyard owner, is a theological way to view the topic of “climate change”


...a landowner set forth a vineyard with great care and lavish attention

he then entrusted it to tenant farmers

at harvest time, he sought his share of the produce

yet instead of giving the owner what was due him, the tenant farmers refused, ridiculing, beating, and even killing the servants sent to collect his share

they end by killing the owner’s own son

when jesus asks his audience what they thought the owner would do in response, they replied that he would put the men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who would give him the produce at the proper time

obviously, they did not realize that in the parable the landlord was actually describing them,... and that such a judgment would be upon them unless they repented



 
Last edited:

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
the assumption of those who have a technical understanding of climate science or perhaps think they do (i.e. self identified leftist-environmentalists for example in the following article "link")


is when average people finally wake up to fact that there is a problem with man made climate change there are technical solutions that can help humanity adapt,... BUT what I've discovered is few if any scientists or individuals w/ actual technological understanding, have pondered the economy AND monetary system complications

IOW in order for organized society to adapt to a world where mankind has changed the climate, requires a smooth running global economy,... looking at various trends indicates rough times ahead

to get a feel for the economy AND monetary system complications (i.e. the "triffin's dilemma" vs "the limits of growth issue" ) which is another problem that has to be confronted head on,... a good background primer on the topic is



FRONTLINE The Power of the Fed
http://www.pbs.org/video/the-power-of-the-fed-zzeu12/



MIT Has Predicted that Society Will Collapse in 2040




Why The US Dollar Is Doomed (Triffin Dilemma)
 

Germinator

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
264
Reaction score
110
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You mentioned logic in a debate. I often find myself wondering what people are debating when I start reading threads.
To be fair, empiricism lends itself to sensationalism. You can't expect a debate based around facts to last since the very first fact in any debate is what people say.

If you want to grab attention with facts, then say something witty that's instantaneously gratifying.
A multi-media presentation! I love alternative styles, personally, and a lot of information can be conveyed that way.

the simple truth is students (i.e. people in general) are not taught how to think critically and prioritize threats (the exception being military personal, specifically pilots)

said another way military culture prepares their personal to face up to tough adversaries using intellectual framework like the OODA loop and "psychological training preparation"

as I see things the "military culture" approach is the only way it is possible to deal with a complex and intimidating issue such as manmade climate change because its basic human nature to bury one's head in the sand when confronted w/ a "yuge" problem

4x6-PC-TRUMP-gut-instincts-vs-OODA-loop.png


one thing I learned from various flight instructors is "situational awareness" and OODA analysis,... basically it is a thought process that was developed to keep USAF pilots alive AND understanding it is insurance of sorts from doing dumb things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

4x6-PC-Trumpoleon-darwin-award.png


bottom line to solve a problem it first must be understood AND for a very complex issue such as "the science of man made climate change" vs "the role of economics and monetary systems" it requires "balls" AND "brains"

FYI WRT "psychological training preparation,..." military pilots have to under go SERE (SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE and ESCAPE) school,... which is another thing few in the general public are taught (or are aware of),... actually was about 12 and a Boy Scout when I first learned the art of "wilderness survival"

the following is a link to a PDF version of "the US navy seal survival handbook"

http://glow420.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/the-u-s-navy-seal-survival-handbook.pdf

if ya look on p. 45 of the PDF it shows a photo of a SERE instructor w/ some boy scouts,... consider myself fortunate being introduced to wilderness survival skills as a kid,... also learned back then that to survive in the wilderness one also needs to toughen up mentally

...sad fact of the matter is too few in political office have the "balls" AND/OR "brains" to confront a complex issues that involve science or economics

basically the one talent politicians do have is "branding themselves" to some group of partisan supporters,... just saying it takes a keen eye to notice what is actually happening,... for example look at the following image using the concept of the OODA loop

4x6-PC-TRUMP-climate-change-analysis-coverup.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: XDU

XDU

Active member
Joined
Jan 5, 2022
Messages
483
Reaction score
85
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
the simple truth is students (i.e. people in general) are not taught how to think critically and prioritize threats (the exception being military personal, specifically pilots)

said another way military culture prepares their personal to face up to tough adversaries using intellectual framework like the OODA loop and "psychological training preparation"

as I see things the "military culture" approach is the only way it is possible to deal with a complex and intimidating issue such as manmade climate change because its basic human nature to bury one's head in the sand when confronted w/ a "yuge" problem

4x6-PC-TRUMP-gut-instincts-vs-OODA-loop.png


one thing I learned from various flight instructors is "situational awareness" and OODA analysis,... basically it is a thought process that was developed to keep USAF pilots alive AND understanding it is insurance of sorts from doing dumb things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

4x6-PC-Trumpoleon-darwin-award.png


bottom line to solve a problem it first must be understood AND for a very complex issue such as "the science of man made climate change" vs "the role of economics and monetary systems" it requires "balls" AND "brains"

FYI WRT "psychological training preparation,..." military pilots have to under go SERE (SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE and ESCAPE) school,... which is another thing few in the general public are taught (or are aware of),... actually was about 12 and a Boy Scout when I first learned the art of "wilderness survival"

the following is a link to a PDF version of "the US navy seal survival handbook"

http://glow420.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/the-u-s-navy-seal-survival-handbook.pdf

if ya look on p. 45 of the PDF it shows a photo of a SERE instructor w/ some boy scouts,... consider myself fortunate being introduced to wilderness survival skills as a kid,... also learned back then that to survive in the wilderness one also needs to toughen up mentally

...sad fact of the matter is too few in political office have the "balls" AND/OR "brains" to confront a complex issues that involve science or economics

basically the one talent politicians do have is "branding themselves" to some group of partisan supporters,... just saying it takes a keen eye to notice what is actually happening,... for example look at the following image using the concept of the OODA loop

4x6-PC-TRUMP-climate-change-analysis-coverup.png
It's a lot easier to remove the anxieties and urgencies of brains and balls if you think of them together as backbone. It's not about being emotionally fortified as much as it's about being fortified against emotion.

The problem these days, however, isn't psychological. It's legal. People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in because they're worried about being fined or sued and going to jail. Nobody really knows what their rights and responsibilities are anymore. The law has become a lake of thin ice because we're obsessed with compelling one another to learn from experience.

In law, learning from experience is a death knell. You don't know your rights and responsibilities until after the fact of things going wrong.
 
Top Bottom