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We have met the enemy,... and it is us

14%20Pogo%20Earth%20Day%201970%20A_0.jpeg


Don't shoot the messenger,... BUT not much has changed since the first earth day poster (in 1970) illustrated an inconvenient truth about human nature!

Basically until people on the left and right side of the political spectrum realize that we ourselves are the enemy,... humanity will continue to die a slow painful death caused by a thousand cuts!

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/earth-day-story-us

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png


Given human nature, few are brave enough to face head on a problem that is technically complicated,... thus has an uncertain future of deleterious effects,... which somehow will have to be mitigated w/ infrastructure that somehow has to be paid for (with a price tag that will impact everyones comfort and lifestyles).

Consider,... even if humanity in general was magically able to grasp the basic science of man made climate change (which is,... the combustion of various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.... creates CO2 a greenhouse gas that traps infrared energy the earth's atmosphere for a very long time),...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...th-agw-alarmism-today.462171/#post-1074733617

...the human nature problem is,… looking at what is creating the excess CO2 (that the planet cannot absorb) we see it's the so called "american dream" (i.e. a fancy house w/ all kinds of creature comforts, an SUV for personal transportation, copious daily amounts of animal protein at every meal AND an annual vacation in an exotic location - which requires an airline flight)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm

Point being aspirational personal consumption expectations are ingrained in consumers (not just in the USA but also all around the world),... so it is and continues to be an uphill battle to educate people about the big picture science (which is the first step toward solving the problem).

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

Said another way,... "simplistic" one dimensional solutions,... like the idea that, getting rid of capitalism is going to "magically" solve the problem of climate change,... won't change change a thing (AND only digs the hole we are in deeper).

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/09/solving-the-climate-requires-the-end-of-capitalism/

Fact is the capitalistic system which allows incentives for people,... will be needed to develop and build public infrastructure to adapt and correct for man made climate change.

Consider the alternative,... a system lacking economic incentives for people,... IOW cuba, venezuela, and the former USSR,... seems these economic/political systems are in greater turmoil than capitalistic systems (i.e. the USA, western europe, japan and "capitalistic" china),... bottom line if there are no economic incentives to address man made climate, what is going to nudge people to develop goods and services to fix the issue???
 
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Integrityrespec

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So all I hear is CO2. Then I hear that the US already has stricter regulations than the Paris Accord agreement and it's members, and that Russia, China and India don't do a thing to help with CO2 and will not until at least 2030 according to the Paris Accord agreement. Also, what we do in the US will have no measurable effect on the environment as long as those 3 nations do nothing. So why are we hurting the USA for these other nations who don't do a thing. Sounds like we are just being played.
 

Germinator

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So all I hear is CO2. Then I hear that the US already has stricter regulations than the Paris Accord agreement and it's members, and that Russia, China and India don't do a thing to help with CO2 and will not until at least 2030 according to the Paris Accord agreement. Also, what we do in the US will have no measurable effect on the environment as long as those 3 nations do nothing. So why are we hurting the USA for these other nations who don't do a thing. Sounds like we are just being played.

There is lots of truth, that "we" the American public is being played!

Looking at climate change from a scientist point of view,... I know there are uncertainties w/ scientific models.

Simple truth is, climate science is a very complex issue AND models (as good as they are) will never be exact since there are many degrees of freedom (IOW lots of things that can change, which is why short term weather forecasts as good as they are,... will never be exact).

Having said that,... long term climate models actually can be more exact (in their ballpark "figures"),... this is because the only two variables that really count are CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere (since CO2 is a green house gas that traps infrared energy) and the relative long term orbit of the planet earth (basically when the earth's orbit is further away from the sun for long periods of time, the earth goes through an ice age).

At the present moment the earth is slowly drifting away from the sun (so we expect the plant to be slowly cooling off),... BUT something just happened that climate scientists found shocking,... there was rain on top of a mountain of ice, in the arctic region.

The reason "rain fall" is shocking is because the arctic region has been frozen since the time of christ AND as I just mentioned science indicates the earth is slowly drifting away from the sun,... so we should expect the earth's average temperature to slowly be decreasing.

Bottom line,.... "rain fall" on top of a mountain of ice in the arctic region is a big clue that that increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, is warming up the planet.

As a kid went to catholic schools before going to university to study physics,... anyway as I see things, rain in the arctic on top of a mountain of ice should be akin to an "snowball's chance in hell"

BUT looking at the basic science,... starting around the "industrial revolution" we see humanity has put gigatons of measurable CO2 into the earths atmosphere (by burning various fossil fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.)

NOTE the amount of CO2 placed in the atmosphere is so large that scientists use the "gigaton" measurement (i.e. 1 "gigaton" is the weight of one cubic km of water)

4x6-PC-01-combustion-reaction-CO2-diffusion.png


4x6-PC-02-keeling-curve-june-2021.png


4x6-PC-rain-at-SUMMIT-STATION-a-snowball-s-chance-in-hell.png


Basically the one's playing the American public are,... various special interests that want to keep on selling consumers AND voters, on the idea that burning fossil fuels do no harm long term harm.

Think about it,... if the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership told the American public the truth that it is not a matter of "if" but "when" there will be global problems like flooding,... the American public would demand changes be made.

FYI figure the illustrations helps get the point across that looking at the existing trends,... humanity is going to face a crisis of biblical proportions (the only question is "WHEN" not "IF").

Said another way if the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership tell the American public "comfortable lies,..." then the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership, get to keep on milking the system a while longer (i.e. padding their wallets).

Politicians on both sides of the political aisle are more or less the same,... this is because "scientifically" talentless idiots on the left distract their zealot like minded supporters w/ issues like: BLM, critical race theory, gay rights, etc.,etc., etc.

Meanwhile "scientifically" talentless idiots on the right distract their zealot like minded supporters w/ issues like: abortion right to life issues, foreign immigration, 2nd amendment concerns, etc.,etc., etc.

The honest truth is, the fossil fuel industry AND elected political leadership (from all over the world) are playing a game of chicken,... they are hoping someone else acknowledges the problems AND acts first,... because until that happens "scientifically" talentless idiots in political positions of power get to keep on milking the system (meanwhile the first ones to get hurt are the little guys).
 
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Fabiusbile

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and that Russia, China and India don't do a thing to help with
And they won't do anything. These three countries (I am a resident of one of them) regard the "green fight" against CO2 as a tool to contain their economy.
You have the means and a developed economy to play ecology, your population is financially better off, whereas Russia, China and India are at a completely different level and to damage their industry and energy is primarily to hit the pocket of the population.
If you are so concerned about the environment, then subsidize the financial losses to Russia, India and China. No, don't you agree? But then I'm sorry, to strangle their poor population leaving these countries without industry disagree. Take offense, do whatever you want.
 

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And they won't do anything. These three countries (I am a resident of one of them) regard the "green fight" against CO2 as a tool to contain their economy.
You have the means and a developed economy to play ecology, your population is financially better off, whereas Russia, China and India are at a completely different level and to damage their industry and energy is primarily to hit the pocket of the population.

If you are so concerned about the environment, then subsidize the financial losses to Russia, India and China. No, don't you agree? But then I'm sorry, to strangle their poor population leaving these countries without industry disagree. Take offense, do whatever you want.


Not everyone in the USA is "financially better off" which is one reason there is an ever widening social division between well off "social justice warriors" who are associated w/ the Democratic Party AND "bible thumpers" who are associated w/ the Republican Party.

BUT as I tried to point out in the OP the one thing people have in common (i.e. rich or poor, no matter if a citizen of the USA, Russia, India, China, etc.) is,... the god people worship is money (along w/ wanting the "American Dream" lifestyle),... which has consequences.

People all over the world worship money along w/ lusting after the "American Dream" lifestyle because The advertising industry is fuelling climate disaster, and it’s getting away with it

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ndustry-fuelling-climate-disaster-consumption

AND seems there is no difference between the message from The advertising industry and Televangelists (both are essentially telling people to worship at the alter of money and live an unsustainable "lifestyle")




The simple truth is,... too few actually understand "science" and "religion"

What I consider is relevant religious teachings is from St Thomas Aquinas who basically said, "temptation which comes from the enemy takes the form of a suggestion"

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4041.htm

Long story short,... looking at the issue of climate change (from a religious point of view) we see,... useful idiots are doing the work of the devil!


TRUMP-A-Very-Stable-Genius-who-is-being-influenced-by-the-devil.png



political-prosperity-gospel-believers.png



As for the consequences of worshiping at the alter of money and living an unsustainable lifestyle,...as large as the Earth is (which seems to be infinite to most people),... science indicates things do not have a happy ending (basically populations crash).


4x6-PC-Calhoun-s-mouse-utopia-akin-to-a-geophysical-experiment.png



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink#Experiments
 
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Phys251

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14%20Pogo%20Earth%20Day%201970%20A_0.jpeg


Don't shoot the messenger,... BUT not much has changed since the first earth day poster (in 1970) illustrated an inconvenient truth about human nature!

Basically until people on the left and right side of the political spectrum realize that we ourselves are the enemy,... humanity will continue to die a slow painful death caused by a thousand cuts!

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/earth-day-story-us

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png


Given human nature, few are brave enough to face head on a problem that is technically complicated,... thus has an uncertain future of deleterious effects,... which somehow will have to be mitigated w/ infrastructure that somehow has to be paid for (with a price tag that will impact everyones comfort and lifestyles).

Consider,... even if humanity in general was magically able to grasp the basic science of man made climate change (which is,... the combustion of various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gasoline, diesel, etc.... creates CO2 a greenhouse gas that traps infrared energy the earth's atmosphere for a very long time),...

https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...th-agw-alarmism-today.462171/#post-1074733617

...the human nature problem is,… looking at what is creating the excess CO2 (that the planet cannot absorb) we see it's the so called "american dream" (i.e. a fancy house w/ all kinds of creature comforts, an SUV for personal transportation, copious daily amounts of animal protein at every meal AND an annual vacation in an exotic location - which requires an airline flight)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm

Point being aspirational personal consumption expectations are ingrained in consumers (not just in the USA but also all around the world),... so it is and continues to be an uphill battle to educate people about the big picture science (which is the first step toward solving the problem).

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

Said another way,... "simplistic" one dimensional solutions,... like the idea that, getting rid of capitalism is going to "magically" solve the problem of climate change,... won't change change a thing (AND only digs the hole we are in deeper).

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/09/solving-the-climate-requires-the-end-of-capitalism/

Fact is the capitalistic system which allows incentives for people,... will be needed to develop and build public infrastructure to adapt and correct for man made climate change.

Consider the alternative,... a system lacking economic incentives for people,... IOW cuba, venezuela, and the former USSR,... seems these economic/political systems are in greater turmoil than capitalistic systems (i.e. the USA, western europe, japan and "capitalistic" china),... bottom line if there are no economic incentives to address man made climate, what is going to nudge people to develop goods and services to fix the issue???

You are dead right about the science of climate change and dead wrong about the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet.

This is not either-or. This is both-and. All fights matter.
 

Germinator

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You are dead right about the science of climate change and dead wrong about the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet.

This is not either-or. This is both-and. All fights matter.

because art is subjective, an art piece sometimes has a an "artist statement"

www.gyst-ink.com/artist-statement-guidelines

so FWIW,... there was a published-paper that was based on a survey done in my home town that indicated that essentially no one in the public at large was able to explain what causes climate change

thinking at first the published paper findings were a fluke, actually conducted my own informal survey at a startup conference and at a SD350.org "meetup" (assuming a group of tech savvy people AND an environmental activist group would be more likely to know of the basic science of climate change),... what I actually accomplished is,... confirmed that the public at large is basically scientifically illiterate

one good did result from my informal survey experience, to try and make the science (of man made climate change accessible),... took ideas I learned about a "startup" pitch deck and posted them on GoogleDocs (as a "linkable" PDF)

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

figure now that I have a pitch-deck (that story-boards the basic actual climate change "science"),... I'm kinda working on is making it into an open source "Eliza" like chat bot, to teach climate science


chat bot idea aside,... since graphic images (like a Feynman diagram) can impart lots of information and convey a message AND since I'm a comic fan,... during my covid "time off" sabbatical, started playing around w/ graphics software to create a mashup images trying to get people to think about an issue or an idea in a different way (for example)

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png

this pays homage to the first earth day poster and tries to show that humanity is pretty faddish, easily distracted and does not stick around to get the job done

...basically what I am trying to indicate is what I noticed walking to an earth day event here in San Diego


since I live right by Balboa park, was walked over to the event years ago and noticed was walking much faster than a long line of SUVs (actually it was like the opening scene from "office space")


fast forward a couple of years,... given covid and the BLM protest during the lockdown,... was walked my dog (as usual on a daily basis) and since one of the BLM events was where I usually walk on a daily basis,... noticed again I was actually walking faster than a long line of BLM protesters in SUVs


AND the irony does not stop there,... since there, is a "yuge" gay community here in San Diego w/ an annual pride parade what I find humorous is after the march I notice there is lots of trash that has to be picked up in that park after the event


Basically the mashup "art work" is suppose to illustrate pride and interest of the general public on the day of a public rally (for whatever cause),... then then next day its back to being the community of people being basically "indifferent" (...and then there is the trash left over that is left for someone else to clean up after the social signaling protest/public-march-event)

[sarcasm ON using comedic voice]

...what the phuck is up with organized "pride" events one day a year?

does this mean the group feels "shame" the other 364 days of the year??



[sarcasm OFF]

the inclusion of the pogo character is suppose to show that sadly seems like not changed (or has been learned by mankind) since the first earth day teach-in


the "amazon box" box was included to show we live in a throwaway "fad" driven culture that has high environmental costs


bottom line,... the image isn't about "the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet"

...it's suppose to indicate that people in general are only interested in the social issue aspect of a political movement,... and not the actual hard fixing/cleaning up process

said another way,... people don't stick around to do the hard work to fix a mess they them selves create

capeesh?!
 

Phys251

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because art is subjective, an art piece sometimes has a an "artist statement"

www.gyst-ink.com/artist-statement-guidelines

so FWIW,... there was a published-paper that was based on a survey done in my home town that indicated that essentially no one in the public at large was able to explain what causes climate change

thinking at first the published paper findings were a fluke, actually conducted my own informal survey at a startup conference and at a SD350.org "meetup" (assuming a group of tech savvy people AND an environmental activist group would be more likely to know of the basic science of climate change),... what I actually accomplished is,... confirmed that the public at large is basically scientifically illiterate

one good did result from my informal survey experience, to try and make the science (of man made climate change accessible),... took ideas I learned about a "startup" pitch deck and posted them on GoogleDocs (as a "linkable" PDF)

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

figure now that I have a pitch-deck (that story-boards the basic actual climate change "science"),... I'm kinda working on is making it into an open source "Eliza" like chat bot, to teach climate science


chat bot idea aside,... since graphic images (like a Feynman diagram) can impart lots of information and convey a message AND since I'm a comic fan,... during my covid "time off" sabbatical, started playing around w/ graphics software to create a mashup images trying to get people to think about an issue or an idea in a different way (for example)

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png

this pays homage to the first earth day poster and tries to show that humanity is pretty faddish, easily distracted and does not stick around to get the job done

...basically what I am trying to indicate is what I noticed walking to an earth day event here in San Diego


since I live right by Balboa park, was walked over to the event years ago and noticed was walking much faster than a long line of SUVs (actually it was like the opening scene from "office space")


fast forward a couple of years,... given covid and the BLM protest during the lockdown,... was walked my dog (as usual on a daily basis) and since one of the BLM events was where I usually walk on a daily basis,... noticed again I was actually walking faster than a long line of BLM protesters in SUVs


AND the irony does not stop there,... since there, is a "yuge" gay community here in San Diego w/ an annual pride parade what I find humorous is after the march I notice there is lots of trash that has to be picked up in that park after the event


Basically the mashup "art work" is suppose to illustrate pride and interest of the general public on the day of a public rally (for whatever cause),... then then next day its back to being the community of people being basically "indifferent" (...and then there is the trash left over that is left for someone else to clean up after the social signaling protest/public-march-event)

[sarcasm ON using comedic voice]

...what the phuck is up with organized "pride" events one day a year?

does this mean the group feels "shame" the other 364 days of the year??



[sarcasm OFF]

the inclusion of the pogo character is suppose to show that sadly seems like not changed (or has been learned by mankind) since the first earth day teach-in


the "amazon box" box was included to show we live in a throwaway "fad" driven culture that has high environmental costs


bottom line,... the image isn't about "the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet"

...it's suppose to indicate that people in general are only interested in the social issue aspect of a political movement,... and not the actual hard fixing/cleaning up process

said another way,... people don't stick around to do the hard work to fix a mess they them selves create

capeesh?!

You didn't properly address my point.
 

Germinator

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You didn't properly address my point.

sigh,...

You are dead right about the science of climate change and dead wrong about the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet.

This is not either-or. This is both-and. All fights matter.

let's me try this again,... as I tried to point out,... the image isn't about "the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet"

4x6-PC-the-simple-truth-about-protest-movements.png


the idea I was trying to point out is humanity (in general) has transitory interests,... IOW one day the fashion fad is "earth day" the next day it might be a BLM protest or a "pride" march

point being people show up for an event to be social and signal they approve or disapprove, BUT after the march or protest,... people basically walk away AND don't stick around to help clean up the mess,...nor do they stick around and take the time to try and understand the issue,... instead people just keep on walking through life, very oblivious to their surroundings

just sayin I have a propensity to heighten situational awareness as a trained pilot (and a guy with a formal university physics degree),... guess it is because it was drilled into me (by various flight instructors) that the OODA loop is something that will dramatically increase my odds of becoming an"old pilot"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

point being unlike most people who walk through life oblivious to their surroundings,... as I see things, the only social issue that directly can "cancel" humanity as a whole, is society not being able to adapt to man made changing climate

4x6-PC-DENIERS-too-busy-to-notice.png


looking back through history I see a pattern that the final straw that decimates an organized society is "drought" (i.e. climate change) that directly limits food production,... actually the aviation sector is pretty accident free because of awareness of the OODA Loop and "error chain" analysis (which makes those involved in the aero-space sector acutely aware of safety first)

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0524.pdf

unfortunately "social justice warriors" on the left hand side of the political spectrum AND "religious bible thumpers" on the right hand side of the political spectrum,....don't seem to be able to grasp the big picture and only seem to be concerned about canceling out their political opponents
 
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Phys251

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sigh,...



let's me try this again,... as I tried to point out,... the image isn't about "the need to cancel every other social issue on the planet"

Except that's exactly what you did. As just one example, in the last line of your post, you equated "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" as if they were equally naive or ignorant:

unfortunately "social justice warriors" on the left hand side of the political spectrum AND "religious bible thumpers" on the right hand side of the political spectrum,....don't seem to be able to grasp the big picture and only seem to be concerned about canceling out their political opponents

The kindest thing I can say in return is that you are under the delusion that there is a finite amount of resource that can be divvied up to social causes. You see environmentalism as the number one cause--a defensible position--and then demand that literally every other cause take a back seat--an indefensible position.

Issues overlap. Environmentalism overlaps with economic justice, which overlaps with racial justice, and so on. It's a web of interconnected causes, not a hierarchy of them.
 

Germinator

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Except that's exactly what you did. As just one example, in the last line of your post, you equated "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" as if they were equally naive or ignorant:

WRT scientific understanding of climate change,... there is pretty solid evidence indicating "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" are equally naive or ignorant

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/tops.12187

having learned of the paper (and thinking the findings was a fluke) attend the catholic answers "faith and science" and was pretty surprised to learn there was no interest in the topic of climate change nor was there any fundamental understanding of the physics/chemistry or math by any of the featured speakers

https://shop.catholic.com/science-for-believers-mp3/

on the other end of the political spectrum went to a SD350.org meetup to try my hand at informal poll about the scientific knowledge (about what causes "man made" climate change)

one would think a group setup advocating on behalf of environmental concerns would be more scientifically knowledgeable about the topic,... basically at the meetup which was also a teach in about the importance of soils,... was shocked at how little science the group actually knew about the actual science of man made climate change

AND FWIW also tried my informal poll about the basic physics and chemistry of "man made" climate change at an entrepreneurial tech startup conference AND I only found one individual there who could give the correct answer,... I actually expected tech savvy people would know more about the basics of climate science, but again I was wrong

seems perceived knowledge (about climate science) is another example of,... The Dunning Kruger Effect


although I'm not a working climate scientist, the reason I have a good technical understanding of the basic science (of man made climate change) is because I had the dumb luck to have taken a undergrad seminar project class taught by Roger Revelle and as a result kinda had access to Keeling (as in the "Keeling Curve"),... basically way back in the day, had some pretty smart people walk me through how planetary dynamics effects climate over geological time,... then was able to connect the role of chemistry

at the startup conference (where I did my informal climate science survey) is how important it is to put together a good "sales" pitch,... so what I have done (since after attending the 2019 conference) is working on a "pitch" deck to try and illustrate the basic science of what is causing man made climate change,...

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-b.org

also at the startup conference learned about chatbots,... so now that I have a pretty good "pitch" deck that story boards the basic science of what is causing man made climate change I'm trying to see if I can code an "Eliza" like chat bot to respond to "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" who are equally naive or ignorant about the issue AND understanding the science

btw ever hear of the expression(s) "jack of all trades, master of nothing,... spreading your self too thin?"

as I interpret these sayings,... it kinda relates to a multi-tasking study I read about,... where people think they can "multi-task" and be efficent/productive,... but in reality that is what actually happens (truth is people basically less-efficient and less-productive)

https://casa.colorado.edu/~dduncan/Stanford study of Multitasking.pdf

I bring this up because you see target fixated on "social causes"

I realize "social concerns" are out there,... but as I see things, the problem like man made climate can only be successfully addressed when the BIG PICTURE problem is understood by the overwhelming majority (i.e. 97% of the public at large)

sadly at the moment from personal interactions w/ both the left and right sides (which I humorously referred to as "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" because there is more than a grain of truth in these stereotype labels),... all data indicates that the public at large is essentially clueless as to understanding the basic science of climate change

there always has been conflict be different social groups,... Religious vs Non-religious,... Rich vs Poor,... Blacks vs Whites,... Gays vs Straight,..., etc., etc., etc.,... point being the one thing that could literally wipe out each of the groups is adverse effects of man made climate change
 

Phys251

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WRT scientific understanding of climate change,... there is pretty solid evidence indicating "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" are equally naive or ignorant

:LOL:

One is a derogatory term coined by racists to preserve their hegemony. The other was a way to punch up at religious bullies.

I guess which is which depends on what side of the aisle you're on.
 

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...you equated "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" as if they were equally naive or ignorant:

...you are under the delusion that there is a finite amount of resource that can be divvied up to social causes. You see environmentalism as the number one cause--a defensible position--and then demand that literally every other cause take a back seat--an indefensible position.

Issues overlap. Environmentalism overlaps with economic justice, which overlaps with racial justice, and so on. It's a web of interconnected causes, not a hierarchy of them.

:LOL:

One is a derogatory term coined by racists to preserve their hegemony. The other was a way to punch up at religious bullies.

I guess which is which depends on what side of the aisle you're on.


Sigh,... "social justice warriors" and "religious bible thumpers" are essentially no talent ass clowns on opposite sides of the political aisle

Neither side has leadership w/ the brains capable of understanding science or economics,... basically leadership on both sides have $hit for brains (as far as I can tell)

for example,... in my home town this is what "social justice warriors" are doing


2021-03-25-Seriously.png



basically the elected La Jolla council member seems to be super into "racial justice"

since the mayor is openly gay AND all about the advancing the LGBT agenda,... I came up w/ an unofficial city seal postcard that reflects the reality of the situation,...


4x6-PC-AMERICA-S-FINEST-CITY-leadership-front.png


4x6-PC-AMERICA-S-FINEST-CITY-leadership-back.png



Sad truth is the politician and bureaucracy here in San Diego are managing the public pension portfolio exactly just like the city of Detroit (which went bankrupt because for decades they gave away an extra pension payment,... which caused the off balance sheet tax payer liability debt to balloon)

www.SanDiegoDebtBomb.com

Point being tax payer debt obligations are growing,... and not just in my home town of San Diego,... basically the pattern is fractal, meaning at all levels of government (in the USA) there are ever growing implied tax payer debt obligations

https://qa-us.pensiontracker.org

Because the dollar is the global reserve currency,... so far political leadership (i.e. like the "no talent ass clowns" in my home town) have been able to sweep fiscal mismanagement under the carpet (and give themselves a raise in pay,... in the mean time)

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/gloria-to-take-over-as-city-doubles-pay-for-mayor

...thing is at some point the debt becomes crushing (i.e. TSHTF)

What I'm trying to say is,... just as there is a ticking time bomb because humanity does not understand the cause of global warming nor does humanity ponder the consequences,... likewise there will be a time when the dollar will no longer be the global reserve currency (because of ever growing debt)

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1011/how-the-triffin-dilemma-affects-currencies.aspx

Basically humanity is heading towards the perfect storm,... on one side there will be an environmental catastrophe due to man made climate change AND on the other side,... the global economy is going to get crushed by mismanaged debt obligations
 
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Germinator

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(long ago) as a physics student was taught how to calculate nuclear chain reactions,... I bring up the topic of chain reactions because learned how many things have to happen (in just the right order) to make a device that creates a nuclear explosion

point being, humanity is where it is today because conditions were just right for civilization to grow and prosper,... likewise one should consider that the reverse can also happen,... IOW prosperous society can implode (like a thermonuclear device), if the conditions are perfectly aligned

case in point,... Calhoun's Universe 25 "the mouse utopia experiment" which is a reminder that humans have the ability to create great things like a peaceful and prosperous society,...


4x6-PC-Calhoun-s-mouse-utopia-akin-to-a-geophysical-experiment.png


yet things can go downhill pretty quickly,... for example (in the YouTube video I've time marked the punchline)


btw the rest of this series (on YouTube) about various societies that grew (and then failed) is pretty informative and educational

also worth noting is a news item in the WSJ that caught my eye

The National Intelligence Estimate is the first of its kind to look at the link between climate change and national security. It projects that nations will fail to meet their pledges to limit global temperature increases to 1.5 degrees Celsius, with that mark being passed around 2030.

Instead, the report portrays climate change as a new geopolitical battleground.

Poor nations disproportionately affected will demand help from wealthier ones, it said. China, the largest emitter of greenhouse gasses, and India, the fourth-largest, will struggle to wean themselves from burning coal. Some countries could unilaterally deploy geoengineering technologies to cool their climates, sparking conflict.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-in...ewyawzunlfib29w&reflink=article_copyURL_share

bottomline,... everyone is going to have to face the simple fact,... humanity is in a battle (w/ themselves) that people cannot afford to lose

 
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grip

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We are a victim of our own success. We've lost equilibrium with our natural environment by conquering its natural obstacles with modernization and technology. And our current system of capitalism requires constant growth of the economy and population to propagate posterity.

The "me" generations are not willing to make the necessary sacrifices in materialism and wealth to reconstitute a balance for the near future's sake of the planet's resources and people. If we don't start making some hard decisions and big changes soon, we will reap the consequences. On what scale and timeline are yet to be determined but mother nature is already fighting back with pandemic(s), environmental alterations from pollution, species extinctions, climate change, etc.
 

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Yeah, the so called "environmentalists" are indeed our enemies. They're trying to destroy real science(which is solely done trough rigorous experiments with reproducible results) and bring pseudo-science as a replacement("science" gets decided through consensus/voting - that is, human opinion takes place of rigorous experimentation)
 

PoliSciPulse

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The problem is the teaching of global warming/climate change/what have you. In the 1990s, we were taught a theory about the greenhouse effect, which make no sense to me to this day:

1990s Greenhouse Effect stated that light/heat from the sun got down through the hole in the ozone layer and then never could get up. This caused global warming because the heat stayed trapped below and could not pass back up through the ozone layer, heating the heard with Carbon Dioxide, etc.

The inherent logical flaw in this (which was never properly taught by 1990s NY primary and secondary school teacher) is: if the ozone layer traps the heat in Earth's and heats it like a greenhouse, how did it pass through the ozone layer to begin with, #1, and #2, if it passed through the hole in the ozone layer one way, why can it not "bounce around" off the ozone layer until it finds the hole?

The rising of the ocean level also doesn't make sense to a degree (As explained). You fill a cup with ice. Ice melts, but the water still maintains the size and shape of the glass. If anything, the ice pours over the rim, not the melted ice water. This is one that even Al Gore failed to explain how melting ice caps actually would raise water above the rim of the glass if it is melting gradually. Basic buoyancy states that the water will eventually displace the ice, but never go over the edge. How then, do the sea levels rise?

So these are either advanced concepts that my simple brain cannot comprehend, I'm missing information, or there's like ... at least a paragraph they need to add into the explanation of these theories.

You probably have the (updated) answers to these and I would like to hear them, but the fact is so many of us Millennials and the era slightly ahead of us went through school and this theory was never explained properly. Ever. So relying on faulty teaching is part of the reason why many of us don't buy the theory of climate change, or at least not of the greenhouse effect or rising sea levels.

I cede the floor to you. Looking forward to your explanation :)
 

Germinator

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The problem is the teaching of global warming/climate change/what have you. In the 1990s, we were taught a theory about the greenhouse effect, which make no sense to me to this day:

1990s Greenhouse Effect stated that light/heat from the sun got down through the hole in the ozone layer and then never could get up. This caused global warming because the heat stayed trapped below and could not pass back up through the ozone layer, heating the heard with Carbon Dioxide, etc.

The inherent logical flaw in this (which was never properly taught by 1990s NY primary and secondary school teacher) is: if the ozone layer traps the heat in Earth's and heats it like a greenhouse, how did it pass through the ozone layer to begin with, #1, and #2, if it passed through the hole in the ozone layer one way, why can it not "bounce around" off the ozone layer until it finds the hole?

to understand why science knows man made climate change in indeed very real, requires all kinds of back ground knowledge,... which unfortunately is not taught very good (if at all in schools)

the "ozone hole" issue you bring up is actually a separate problem from "man made global warming"

basically the ozone hole that was discovered in the upper atmosphere (over the Antarctic region),... let through harmful ultraviolet (UV) rays that come from the Sun

OTOH man made global warming is caused by burning fossil fuels which produces CO2 (because of the chemical combustion process),... the reason excess CO2 in the atmosphere isn't good is because it traps infrared (IR) energy in the atmosphere

FYI a few years ago there was a survey done (about climate change) to try and find out the general knowledge of the public about their understand of climate change science,... the findings were, no one in the survey was able to specifically say, that excess CO2 in the atmosphere isn't good, is because it traps infrared (IR) energy in the atmosphere

although I am not a climate scientist, I actually know that excess CO2 in the atmosphere isn't good (because it traps infrared (IR) energy in the atmosphere)

I've always been interested in science (so at university got a physics degree),... and in one of my classes had a prof who wrote a well known paper on the topic back in 1957

...it was just my dumb luck to have a few pioneers of climate science walk me through the necessary physics and chemistry to understand "man made climate change"

anyway I've put together a linkable PDF that,... outlines the basic physics and chemistry (in pictures) of man made climate change

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-b.org

have a look at the web site I put together,... the simple pictures/diagrams should make understanding climate change a bit more understandable

The rising of the ocean level also doesn't make sense to a degree (As explained). You fill a cup with ice. Ice melts, but the water still maintains the size and shape of the glass. If anything, the ice pours over the rim, not the melted ice water. This is one that even Al Gore failed to explain how melting ice caps actually would raise water above the rim of the glass if it is melting gradually. Basic buoyancy states that the water will eventually displace the ice, but never go over the edge. How then, do the sea levels rise?

...I cede the floor to you. Looking forward to your explanation :)

to grasp why man made global warming is going to result in global sea level rise,... perhaps a simple small scale model "thought experiment" might be enlightening (figure a picture/diagram is worth a 1000 words)

4x6-PC-simple-physical-model-to-understand-the-issue-of-global-sea-level-rise.png
 
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PoliSciPulse

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Slide 5 answered my first question. It is not the sunlight bouncing back, but the IR. This was horribly explained in 1990s education, which, to the best of my recollection, relied only on sunlight as the source of heat.

The diagram you provided ... I'm not actually sure if my eyes are catching what is happening. This might just be me though. Do you have something like a video that demonstrates the concept? Or something where the water is slightly darker so I can see what it's doing? (Also, explained poorly: the argument that you are making, that all ice melting anywhere makes a difference, and 1990s education -- only the polar ice caps melting -- definitely illustrates that there's more to it than just icebergs melt and polar bears and penguins will drown)
 

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Slide 5 answered my first question. It is not the sunlight bouncing back, but the IR. This was horribly explained in 1990s education, which, to the best of my recollection, relied only on sunlight as the source of heat.

The diagram you provided ... I'm not actually sure if my eyes are catching what is happening. This might just be me though. Do you have something like a video that demonstrates the concept? Or something where the water is slightly darker so I can see what it's doing? (Also, explained poorly: the argument that you are making, that all ice melting anywhere makes a difference, and 1990s education -- only the polar ice caps melting -- definitely illustrates that there's more to it than just icebergs melt and polar bears and penguins will drown)

The rising of the ocean level also doesn't make sense to a degree (As explained). You fill a cup with ice. Ice melts, but the water still maintains the size and shape of the glass. If anything, the ice pours over the rim, not the melted ice water. This is one that even Al Gore failed to explain how melting ice caps actually would raise water above the rim of the glass if it is melting gradually. Basic buoyancy states that the water will eventually displace the ice, but never go over the edge. How then, do the sea levels rise?

funny ya mentioned al gore and horrible explanations,... we both had the same prof (Roger Revelle),... basically gore took Revelle's class at Harvard AND I had revelle as a prof for a seminar project class at UCSD

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_globalwarmingpseudo62.htm

revelle was an interesting/brilliant character that wanted PoliSci knuckleheads to grasp the science,... just happens I double majored in Physics and PoliSci

watched gore's "inconvenient truth" movie,... agree don't think it explained the science all that well

anyway about my illustration,...

4x6-PC-simple-physical-model-to-understand-the-issue-of-global-sea-level-rise.png


the point I was trying to make is,... basically the earth is a "yuge" closed system,... so a reptile tank is a good analog model of the planet

included the illustration of "snow covered mountain tops" because this is an example of water (in a "solid" form) that is held in place (for the moment) above sea level

basically in greenland and in the antarctic region there is about 30 million GigaTons of frozen water locked up in glaciers

because the amounts of ice are so "yuge" (in greenland and in the antarctic region),... in climate science the measurement of a GT (GigaTon) is used,... FYI a GT is defined by the weight of water of a cubic kilometer of "water"

said another way,... a cubic km of "water" is an ice cube with sides 0.62 mile in length

now imagine 30 million ice cubes with sides 1km (0.62 mile) in length (this is about how much frozen water there is in Greenland and in the Antarctic region),... basically if all that "frozen" water was to melt the average global sea level would rise by about 65 meters or over 200 feet

given warming trends this won't happen over night (in human terms),... but in geological time (thousand of years is akin to a blink of an eye in human terms),... basically ponder how different the world would be, if since the time of christ (about 2000 years ago) that average sea level rose by 200+ feet

this is just one reason why scientists who understand the issue are very concerned about "man made climate change"

4x6-PC-rain-at-SUMMIT-STATION-a-snowball-s-chance-in-hell.png
 
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Germinator

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Yeah, the so called "environmentalists" are indeed our enemies. They're trying to destroy real science(which is solely done trough rigorous experiments with reproducible results) and bring pseudo-science as a replacement("science" gets decided through consensus/voting - that is, human opinion takes place of rigorous experimentation)

just wondering if you have ever considered that a "real science" man made climate change "rigorous experiment" (as I understand your outline) is for all practical purposes impossible,... this is because it would entail building an exact physical (or digital) model and letting it run for a few trial to validate findings

truth is humanity (at this moment "in real time") is carrying out a large scale geophysical experiment,... the out come of which is uncertain (i.e. does organized society survive???)

quote-thus-human-beings-are-now-carrying-out-a-large-scale-geophysical-experiment-of-the-kind-roger-revelle-105-66-25.jpg



https://www.rochester.edu/newscente...zation-make-it-through-climate-change-322232/
 
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PoliSciPulse

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Nlihus, the issue is not the environmental movement as a whole. I have no problem with having the cleanest water I possibly can, the cleanest air I possibly can, and the most diverse species of animals on the planet that I possibly can. I also have no problem with alternative sources of energy, holding fossil fuel companies accountable for hiding their studies from the general public (regardless of what they say about the environment), just as I favor company disclosure forms like 10-K and 4-Q forms for stocks.

The problem is we are at a point in human society where we are being pressured to move quickly without a plan, or rather a step instead of a plan. The fallout from what would need to be sudden, drastic changes to meet the Paris Accord targets, is not addressed. What the politicians who are in charge of implementing the plans do not have is an and then what? As a result, I fear just doing something (meeting the targets) just for the sake of doing it -- will cause more problems instead of being a definite solution.

For example:
* Eliminate Coal Factories ... and then what? Many people in coal factories have been doing the same thing their entire life. Biden suggested they learn how to code, but not everyone is cut out to code (for instance, I can read computer code, but not write it -- thankfully, I found a job where I don't need to write computer code nor have I ever had to work in a coal mine :)). You could transition them to green energy jobs, but coal is a labor intensive method, whereas green energy technology strikes me as something more technical. Plus, China's energy economy practically runs on coal (though to their credit, they have been converting to green energy at a gradual rate), the issue is that all developing economies will eventually use coal before they have the money (it's a cheap and dirty source of energy), etc., to "go green." Does this mean we should stop all emerging economies from developing?

* Eliminate Gas as a source of energy ... and then what? Many car manufacturers will have to close their businesses and many jobs will be lost if they cannot make the change in time. While you could convert the car factories to make green cars, what happens while all the workers are waiting to get their jobs back? There are other things in the world powered by gas and coal for that matter (trains come to mind). Do we kill off trains as a mode of transportation while we wait to retrofit them with green technologies?

I don't blame the environmentalists of today for not having an and then what as most of them are goal-oriented, not necessarily future-oriented (meaning after the goal is met), and many are not politicians or economics-oriented. Their goals are laudable.

The reason why we are in this mess to begin with is because environmentalists from and politicians alike for decades have seen this coming for at least a decade if not more. All of the and then what's should have been accounted for and ready to go at a moment's notice when the situation became direr. But we, as a human society, has missed this moment.
 

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We are a victim of our own success. We've lost equilibrium with our natural environment by conquering its natural obstacles with modernization and technology. And our current system of capitalism requires constant growth of the economy and population to propagate posterity.

The "me" generations are not willing to make the necessary sacrifices in materialism and wealth to reconstitute a balance for the near future's sake of the planet's resources and people.

...we are at a point in human society where we are being pressured to move quickly without a plan, or rather a step instead of a plan. The fallout from what would need to be sudden, drastic changes to meet the Paris Accord targets, is not addressed. What the politicians who are in charge of implementing the plans do not have is an and then what?

back in the day when I was an undergrad taking PoliSci classes had a prof point out the number one priority of politicians is getting elected and trying to stay in power,... looking at politics from this POV explains why very little progress has been done to address man made climate change

in math there is something called a fractal set,... basically its it a "repeating" pattern at different levels


I mention fractals because the idea of repeating patterns is very applicable to politics

basically at various levels of politics we have individuals who have no real understand of science (nor an interest in the topic) AND their number one priority is getting elected and trying to stay in political office (to further their own self interest)

for example,... in my home town politics is dominated by social justice warriors who concentrate on liberal agenda BUT have no clue whatsoever about "science"

4x6-PC-AMERICA-S-FINEST-CITY-leadership-front.png


4x6-PC-AMERICA-S-FINEST-CITY-leadership-back.png


NOW consider political office a few levels up from a mayor of a city,... IOW consider POTUS specifically TRUMP who paid lip service to bible thumpers (and it was this "base" that gave TRUMP the office)

again we see yet another elected official that has no real understanding of basic science AND whose primary concern was trying to stay in political power

basically learned each politician has a "brand" image they try and sell to a special interest (they hope gets them the office they are seeking),... sadly few voters take a critical look at the candidates they pledge allegiance to

4x6-PC-TRUMP-climate-change-analysis-coverup.png


given human nature which basically seeks instant gratification,... the issue of addressing man climate change is difficult to address because it requires some kind of personal sacrifice along with pondering a harsh reality

I was kind of fortunate in that I had some pretty good PoliSci professors that looked at the much bigger picture and lectured on the role of natural resources,... for example the same prof that pointed out the number one priority of politicians is getting elected, also gave lectures about regional SoCal "water" resource politics

https://www.uctv.tv/library-channel/search-details.aspx?showID=12063

sigh,... its been three decades since I was an undergrad and seems things have only degraded,... basically the left only seems interested to cancel the right (AND vice versa)

bottom line seem few in politics actually have the balls or brains to be "real" leaders
 
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Germinator

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going over what happened at COP26

...China and the United States vowed to work together to accelerate climate action this decade

...High-income countries failed to provide compensation for the effects of climate change in the developing world (basically 138 "poor" countries)

...Countries basically commit to “accelerating efforts towards the phase-down of unabated coal power and inefficient fossil fuel subsidies...” after China and India succeeded in a last-minute effort to remove the previous wording on a coal “phase out”


anyway one thing caught my eye,...

UN-Climate-Change-Conference-UK2020-by-Johnson-Banks-5.jpg


the COP26 logo which aims to show “climate change has no borders” seems like just "more simple minded BAU corporate branding,..." which leads to more blah, blah, blah

https://www.domestika.org/en/blog/9361-cop26-3-key-factors-that-shaped-the-brand-identity

sigh,... thought the official logo lacked a sense of history AND actual climate science context,... so came up w/ my own "mashup" graphic that includes a quote from the first earth day poster, a faded keeling curve that shows the ever increasing concentration of CO2 being measured in the atmosphere, the olive branches from the UN logo AND icons that represents humanity

4x6-PC-United-Nations-Conference-of-the-Parties.png


would blunt UN COP "branding" prevent more blah, blah, blab???

basically looking at the trends science has documented, I think the provocative declaration that Stephen Hawking made about humanity (a few years ago) is pretty much accurate

https://time.com/4767595/stephen-hawking-100-years-new-planet/

since a majority of people don't have formal scientific training or talent, figure what might also be useful is an illustration of a world map that shows what science expects to happen if humanity does nothing to curb ever increasing CO2 emissions,... basically the world as we know it will experience a global flood of "biblical proportions"

global flooding on a biblical scale is just one effect that will happen if noting is done to prevent ever increasing man made CO2 being released into the earth's atmosphere

4x6-PC-rain-at-SUMMIT-STATION-a-snowball-s-chance-in-hell.png


just wondering what others concerned about various trends think about turning these mashup graphic images,... into a 4x6 postcard

as I see things, sadly a majority of people have no basic scientific understanding what causes man made climate change (actually there was a survey done for a published paper that found the the general public is scientifically illiterate) so a 4x6 postcard would be helpful to put things into context (like what happend at the first earth day which was designed as a "teach-in")

https://www.earthday.org/history/

...so any thoughts about the idea of a teach-in OR what happened at COP26???
 

Nilhus

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just wondering if you have ever considered that a "real science" man made climate change "rigorous experiment" (as I understand your outline) is for all practical purposes impossible,... this is because it would entail building an exact physical (or digital) model and letting it run for a few trial to validate findings
You have just admitted that there's no real science in climatology. :)

You don't have rigorous experiments = you don't have science = you don't draw conclusions and don't invent answers

The only thing you can say is "we don't know". Trying to make a case that we should use the precautionary principle might be OK as long as you don't try to fool the public that science is involved(which is what the whole "scientific consensus" really is - fooling the public that there is science when there's no science)
 
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