'We control them all': Donald Trump Jr. texted

[Athanasius68]

Because they did lose in court,

61 times and the kraken a guliani were disbarred for presenting false evidence…

The issue here was Biden and what he would have done had the election results not gone in his favor.

 

[Athanasius68]

So Trump said Pence could have overturned the vote. And their plan was for him to do that. Which is why they had fake electors which is a felony (not legal as you claimed)

You're wrong 100% of the time here. Tell me this since we can't agree on what reality is: should Navarro be in prison? I will allow hours for you to find out who he is and figure out what to say is fake.

The 'fake electors' were to satisfy the requirements of the Electoral Count Act. But it was ridiculous because that piece of that law that kicks if the state themselves cannot decide as to who won their state election.
That wasn't the case here, as all the states had certified their returns and elected their electors as per relevant state law.

 

[Mustachio]

The 'fake electors' were to satisfy the requirements of the Electoral Count Act. But it was ridiculous because that piece of that law that kicks if the state themselves cannot decide as to who won their state election.
That wasn't the case here, as all the states had certified their returns and elected their electors as per relevant state law.

Ok you should really stop. I'll copy paste. Read, stop typing.

The fake electoral certificates were signed by Republican state lawmakers and party officials in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico, states accounting for a combined 84 electoral votes. And like the violent insurrectionists who came to the Capitol on Jan. 6 with knives, bats and other weapons, the fake electors sought to overturn a democratic election through extralegal means. They did so in a coordinated effort, mostly out in the open, and through official channels.

You obviously haven't read the Eastman memos, but you pretend like you have,

So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well.

 

[j brown's body]

The issue here was Biden and what he would have done had the election results not gone in his favor.

What could he have done?

 

[CaughtInThe]

Trump wanted pence to ignore the electoral votes and throw them out. Have you been under a rock since December 2020?

Trump says he wanted Pence to overturn the 2020 election and falsely claims it was vice president's 'right'

Former President Donald Trump in a statement Sunday said he wanted then-Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the 2020 presidential election, repeating the false claim that Pence had the power to do so and slamming recent bipartisan efforts to reform the Electoral Count Act.

amp.cnn.com

They don't care.

 

[j brown's body]

You are the one who seems to be arguing that Biden, like Trump before him, would have that authority. I am not.

What if Biden was able to show "voter suppression" as a reason for his defeat? Would you support his 'overturning' the 2024 election?

History suggests no. No Democratic Party presidential candidate who has lost has challenged an election due to voter suppression. And that's really the only thing we can go on.

 

[Deuce]

Like I said-- I am not arguing the one arguing that a president or Congress has the authority to overturn an election.

What do you think that has to do with anything? Overthrowing an election isn't corrupt because it's illegal? What??

 

[soap box]

The issue here was Biden and what he would have done had the election results not gone in his favor.

I couldn't help but notice that a few other members have misunderstood what you have posted and I can tell there are terms and premises that haven't been clarified. If I may, there are a few facts that might help.

post #75 - The Electoral College has to convene and ratify the state votes. If they don't, the election isn't valid, by law. May seem like a technicality, since on December 14, 2020 state legislatures did decide on their slates. But that is the law. Meaning, McConnell and Pelosi were insisting that the EC recovene after the riot had ended for exactly that reason. If they hadn't , the election would have delved further into limbo since their constitutinal obligation would not have been met.

post #84 - the phrase "votes to the side" is odd. If a Senator joins a Representative in an objection to the slate from a state, and the objection is submitted in writing, the VP declares the EC session to be adjourned and the two houses go to their chambers and debate the matter. If both the senate and the house agree with the objection, they return to a joint session and reconvene the EC and the slate from that state is not counted. zero. There is no mechanism to replace a slate at that point. If either the house or senate does not agree with the objection, they reconvene and the state IS counted.

post # 86 and #109 - If a state legislature decides to rescind a slate, that can be done after the day where the EC slate is determined, in 2020 the date was December 14th, although I'm not aware that any state has ever done that. But when the EC convenes it's too late to change anything. So only the state legislature can change the EC slate, all the way up until the EC convenes.

Although, you do realize how your speculation about what Biden would have done in similar circumstances is a historical what-if. What if Hitler had won the war and so on. Since it never happened, there is no proof of anything. Good for a night of interesting discussion while belting back a few strong drinks, but not much use otherwise. But sure, raising the question here is not against any rule, although I can't beleive Biden would have done what trump chose to do.

We disagree about the importance of what happened. Your posts dismiss the constitutional crisis that Mike Pence avoided. I am already chill ( post 63 ) but I am adamant that J6 never happens again.

 

[Athanasius68]

I couldn't help but notice that a few other members have misunderstood what you have posted and I can tell there are terms and premises that haven't been clarified. If I may, there are a few facts that might help.

post #75 - The Electoral College has to convene and ratify the state votes. If they don't, the election isn't valid, by law. May seem like a technicality, since on December 14, 2020 state legislatures did decide on their slates. But that is the law. Meaning, McConnell and Pelosi were insisting that the EC recovene after the riot had ended for exactly that reason. If they hadn't , the election would have delved further into limbo since their constitutinal obligation would not have been met.

post #84 - the phrase "votes to the side" is odd. If a Senator joins a Representative in an objection to the slate from a state, and the objection is submitted in writing, the VP declares the EC session to be adjourned and the two houses go to their chambers and debate the matter. If both the senate and the house agree with the objection, they return to a joint session and reconvene the EC and the slate from that state is not counted. zero. There is no mechanism to replace a slate at that point. If either the house or senate does not agree with the objection, they reconvene and the state IS counted.

post # 86 and #109 - If a state legislature decides to rescind a slate, that can be done after the day where the EC slate is determined, in 2020 the date was December 14th, although I'm not aware that any state has ever done that. But when the EC convenes it's too late to change anything. So only the state legislature can change the EC slate, all the way up until the EC convenes.

Although, you do realize how your speculation about what Biden would have done in similar circumstances is a historical what-if. What if Hitler had won the war and so on. Since it never happened, there is no proof of anything. Good for a night of interesting discussion while belting back a few strong drinks, but not much use otherwise. But sure, raising the question here is not against any rule, although I can't beleive Biden would have done what trump chose to do.

We disagree about the importance of what happened. Your posts dismiss the constitutional crisis that Mike Pence avoided. I am already chill ( post 63 ) but I am adamant that J6 never happens again.

Thank you for the kind word.
However, a few things:

1. The EC met on Dec 14 and elected Biden. Jan 6 was Congress convening to count those ballots. As the Constitution states, the candidate who has the majority of those votes "shall be president." There is no wiggle room for Congress here-- no requirements that Congress 'certify' the electoral college votes to make it valid. Jan 6 was a ministerial day-- substantive action had taken place on Dec 14.

2. The Constitution also says the person who has received the most electoral votes shall be president on the standard date in January. Again-- no wiggle room.

3. The hysteria centers around the Electoral Count Act which deals with how Congress deals with disputed electoral votes. But there were none. The states had all certified their votes as per state law.

4. Jan 6 was ugly. But democracy did not come close to death that day.

 

[soap box]

Thank you for the kind word.
However, a few things:

1. The EC met on Dec 14 and elected Biden. Jan 6 was Congress convening to count those ballots. As the Constitution states, the candidate who has the majority of those votes "shall be president." There is no wiggle room for Congress here-- no requirements that Congress 'certify' the electoral college votes to make it valid. Jan 6 was a ministerial day-- substantive action had taken place on Dec 14.

2. The Constitution also says the person who has received the most electoral votes shall be president on the standard date in January. Again-- no wiggle room.

3. The hysteria centers around the Electoral Count Act which deals with how Congress deals with disputed electoral votes. But there were none. The states had all certified their votes as per state law.

4. Jan 6 was ugly. But democracy did not come close to death that day.

1. I agree, but I guess we should consult an authority to answer whether or not a state can later rescind their slate and replace it.

2. This is not correct. The candidate that receives 270 votes is the winner. If no candidate receives that number, regardless of who has more than the other or others, the election is thrown to the house. The caucus from each state gets a single vote and the final decision occurs there. Since more states had a majority of Republican representatives, the Eastman plan included an attempt to throw out enough slates so that neither trump nor Biden reached 270.

3. I just don't perceive hysteria.

4. I honestly believe that if trump is ever president again, we will never see another free and fair election. My opinion is that Mike Pence saved the republic. Democracy is fragile.

 

[Athanasius68]

1. I agree, but I guess we should consult an authority to answer whether or not a state can later rescind their slate and replace it.

2. This is not correct. The candidate that receives 270 votes is the winner. If no candidate receives that number, regardless of who has more than the other or others, the election is thrown to the house. The caucus from each state gets a single vote and the final decision occurs there. Since more states had a majority of Republican representatives, the Eastman plan included an attempt to throw out enough slates so that neither trump nor Biden reached 270.

3. I just don't perceive hysteria.

4. I honestly believe that if trump is ever president again, we will never see another free and fair election. My opinion is that Mike Pence saved the republic. Democracy is fragile.

1. I would be surprised if there were states which such a mechanism. But in any event, once the electoral votes were cast it would be a done deal.

2. I was thinking in terms of two candidates. I guess three or more could keep somebody from obtaining half plus one of the electoral votes.
Eastman's idea rests upon the provisions of the ECA, which in turn, over the years, has been claimed to be unconstitutional.
But even if Pence had refused to count the votes, they were still already cast. Nor was it a secret-- the state legislatures and EC votes are known when it occurs.
Biden still would have been inaugurated.

3. What I have found is that the outrage by many over what happened rests upon Trump not being to show that he wuz robbed. In other words, critics of Trump here seem to be leaving open the door that its quite legal to do what Trump wanted to do-- provided a sufficient rationale is shown for the effort.

 

[soap box]

1. I would be surprised if there were states which such a mechanism. But in any event, once the electoral votes were cast it would be a done deal.

2. I was thinking in terms of two candidates. I guess three or more could keep somebody from obtaining half plus one of the electoral votes.
Eastman's idea rests upon the provisions of the ECA, which in turn, over the years, has been claimed to be unconstitutional.
But even if Pence had refused to count the votes, they were still already cast. Nor was it a secret-- the state legislatures and EC votes are known when it occurs.
Biden still would have been inaugurated.

3. What I have found is that the outrage by many over what happened rests upon Trump not being to show that he wuz robbed. In other words, critics of Trump here seem to be leaving open the door that its quite legal to do what Trump wanted to do-- provided a sufficient rationale is shown for the effort.

If everything was finalized on Dec. 14, why would the EC convene at all? The 12th A says there's one more step after the state slate selection.

Mitch McConnell spoke about #3 on November 4th, 2020
( Not being able to show he was robbed)
"the courts will decide disputes. That's the way we do it in this country."

And they went on to lose 60+ court cases for lack of evidence.

 

[Athanasius68]

If everything was finalized on Dec. 14, why would the EC convene at all? The 12th A says there's one more step after the state slate selection.

Mitch McConnell spoke about #3 on November 4th, 2020
( Not being able to show he was robbed)
"the courts will decide disputes. That's the way we do it in this country."

And they went on to lose 60+ court cases for lack of evidence.

The EC convened and voted on Dec 14-- in each of their respective state capitals.
Jan 6 was for the counting of those votes.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641#:~:text=December%2014%2C%202020%3A%20Electors%20Vote,meeting%20is%20on%20December%2014.

 

[Davin]

The issue here was Biden and what he would have done had the election results not gone in his favor.

No the issue here is what Don Jr. was trying to do that you support. That's the thread honey in case you forgot.

 

[ecofarm]

4. Jan 6 was ugly. But democracy did not come close to death that day.

America falls, world falls. The free world was in jeopardy for the first time since World War 2. It was nazis, again.