Was the attack on the Capitol an attempted coup?

[Evilroddy]

How about an election coup?

Did you see the gallows?!

Antiwar:

An election coup? Not really. The election was two months over and this was what has been a pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition. So, no, I don't think anyone actually believed they were going to reverse the election results. This was a riotous protest incited by the president and others as one last show of a mass fit of pique which got badly out of hand.

As to the gallows, perspective can be a tricky thing in both photography and politics. I think you will see that folks would be hard pressed to hang a miniature poodle on this infamous gallows, let alone senators, representatives and others who drew the mob's ire.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

I appreciate all the attention, but I’m already married. Sorry to disappoint.

So there's one more harpy in the world with horrible taste.

Do you not realize that a Capitol police officer was MURDERED by the people you're so desperate to defend? Practically makes you an accomplice.

 

[Antiwar]

Antiwar:

An election coup? Not really. The election was two months over and this was what has been a pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition. So, no, I don't think anyone actually believed they were going to reverse the election results. This was a riotous protest incited by the president and others as one last show of a mass fit of pique which got badly out of hand.

As to the gallows, perspective can be a tricky thing in both photography and politics. I think you will see that folks would be hard pressed to hang a miniature poodle on this infamous gallows, let alone senators, representatives and others who drew the mob's ire.

View attachment 67312504

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Mannn, you have way too light of a perspective on this.

The gallows does look a lot smaller in this picture. But it's 4 m tall and looks sturdy enough. That's functional. I'm surprised they don't have an Obama effigy ...

 

[Casper]

Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought (msn.com)

 

[Moon]

So there's one more harpy in the world with horrible taste.

Do you not realize that a Capitol police officer was MURDERED by the people you're so desperate to defend? Practically makes you an accomplice.

Please point out where I’ve defended a goddamn thing, and shut your ****ing mouth about my wife, prick.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

No, not by any real definition. For the vast majority of participants it was trespassing. Hopefully they can track down those that engaged in vandalism and physical confrontations with police. Apparently an envelope was stolen as well.

So if you ever, God forbid, face a violent home invasion where 5 people lose their lives, the police should just charge them with simple trespassing???

Y'alls pathetic rationalizations just keep getting more and more shameful.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

Please point out where I’ve defended a goddamn thing, and shut your ****ing mouth about my wife, prick.

You know exactly what you’re defending. So does everyone else reading this thread.

 

[molten_dragon]

Yes, it was an attempted coup. It was poorly planned, poorly executed, and had almost no nope of succeeding, but I'm not sure what else you could call it at this point.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

No, not by any real definition. For the vast majority of participants it was trespassing. Hopefully they can track down those that engaged in vandalism and physical confrontations with police. Apparently an envelope was stolen as well.

Over 50 police were injured and one died. Pipe bombs weapons and zip cuffs, its a **** ton more than a damn envelope.

 

[NWRatCon]

"Coup Klux Klan"! WOOT! WOOT!

I liked it, but I might modify it to the Coup Klutz Klan.

 

[NWRatCon]

It was the reason so many of the legislators were apprehensive about the session that day. One rep made sure her will was available that morning for her husband, another called all her love ones the night before....
Pence brought his family with him as he feared for their safety in trying to get to him.

If you were unaware you were not paying attention.

Like THAT would be a new development...

 

[NWRatCon]

It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'etat region of france, otherwise it's just sparkling white nationalism

Well said, my friend. That was a good morning laugh.

 

[NWRatCon]

From November 8 to November 9, 1923, Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) and his followers staged the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, a failed takeover of the government in Bavaria, a state in southern Germany. Since 1921, Hitler had led the Nazi Party, a fledgling political group that promoted German pride and anti-Semitism and was unhappy with the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the peace settlement that ended World War I (1914-18) and required many concessions and reparations from Germany. In the aftermath of the failed “putsch,” or coup d’état, Hitler was convicted of treason and sentenced to five years in prison. He spent less than a year behind bars, during which time he dictated “Mein Kampf,” his political autobiography. The putsch and Hitler’s subsequent trial turned him into a national figure. After prison, he worked to rebuild the Nazi Party and gain power via legal political methods.

History

Sound familiar?

 

[OlNate]

Antiwar:

An election coup? Not really. The election was two months over and this was what has been a pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition. So, no, I don't think anyone actually believed they were going to reverse the election results. This was a riotous protest incited by the president and others as one last show of a mass fit of pique which got badly out of hand.

As to the gallows, perspective can be a tricky thing in both photography and politics. I think you will see that folks would be hard pressed to hang a miniature poodle on this infamous gallows, let alone senators, representatives and others who drew the mob's ire.

View attachment 67312504

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

I dunno, man... There was some pretty heavy rhetoric used that day...

 

[NWRatCon]

An election coup? Not really. The election was two months over and this was what has been a pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition. So, no, I don't think anyone actually believed they were going to reverse the election results. This was a riotous protest incited by the president and others as one last show of a mass fit of pique which got badly out of hand.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, my friend. There ARE people who actually believed they were going to reverse the election results (including Trump) - and still do. The purpose of the insurrection was specifically to disrupt the "pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition" and, if possible, intimidate legislators to go along with the insanity (which a large number of them had and did even after the attack). Do I think they came anywhere near success? No. But, one should not discount the willingness to engage in violence or the disconnect between their beliefs and reality.

 

[Evilroddy]

I dunno, man... There was some pretty heavy rhetoric used that day...

OlNate:

Yes, I agree, there was some awful rhetoric and violent intent on display, on and before Jan. 26, 2021. Those who uttered such inflammatory rhetoric should be held criminally and civilly liable for the direct and indirect harms their words caused during the riot. (See post #11 in this thread). At one point, I believe, the mob in the Capitol was screaming, "Hang Mike Pence". You'll get no argument from me on dangerous utterances and bloody resolve from some who encouraged and participated in this riot.

My point is that the events of Jan. 6th, 2021 did not meet the definition and the coordination of a coup d'etat or armed insurrection. This was a riotous protest which was egged on by dangerous populist fools, including the sitting president, and which snow-balled into a mass attack on the structure of the Capitol and the people legally in it. I believe that the powers that be want to redefine this riot as insurrection or a coup d'etat for political reasons. If they can rebrand a riot into an insurrection or a coup, then that lets them block the possibility of another election bid by the sitting president without invoking the 25th Amendment or having a second impeachment and trial for him. Those who encouraged it or participated in it should be investigated, charged with crimes, tried and if found guilty, then punished in accordance with the law. But the law should not be ballooned up in order to save cabinet members and senators from having to do their sworn duty under the law and the constitution. Political expediency should not be able to redefine reality.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[calamity]

Seriously, who did not see this coming? Four years of Nazi rallies didn't let you know something ugly was brewing?

 

[Evilroddy]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, my friend. There ARE people who actually believed they were going to reverse the election results (including Trump) - and still do. The purpose of the insurrection was specifically to disrupt the "pro forma rubber stamping and a ceremonial tradition" and, if possible, intimidate legislators to go along with the insanity (which a large number of them had and did even after the attack). Do I think they came anywhere near success? No. But, one should not discount the willingness to engage in violence or the disconnect between their beliefs and reality.

MWRatCon:

The purpose of a coup is to seize control of the state from the legitimately elected or appointed persons in control of the state. An insurrection heeds to be well armed in order to have any hope to succeed. Neither of these conditions were met by the riot and rioters who broke into the Capitol.

See my post #66 for why I think there is such pressure to rebrand a riot into something bigger.

Cheers good fellow and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[OlNate]

OlNate:

Yes, I agree, there was some awful rhetoric and violent intent on display, on and before Jan. 26, 2021. Those who uttered such inflammatory rhetoric should be held criminally and civilly liable for the direct and indirect harms their words caused during the riot. (See post #11 in this thread). At one point, I believe, the mob in the Capitol was screaming, "Hang Mike Pence". You'll get no argument from me on dangerous utterances and bloody resolve from some who encouraged and participated in this riot.

My point is that the events of Jan. 6th, 2021 did not meet the definition and the coordination of a coup d'etat or armed insurrection. This was a riotous protest which was egged on by dangerous populist fools, including the sitting president, and which snow-balled into a mass attack on the structure of the Capitol and the people legally in it. I believe that the powers that be want to redefine this riot as insurrection or a coup d'etat for political reasons. If they can rebrand a riot into an insurrection or a coup, then that lets them block the possibility of another election bid by the sitting president without invoking the 25th Amendment or having a second impeachment and trial for him. Those who encouraged it or participated in it should be investigated, charged with crimes, tried and if found guilty, then punished in accordance with the law. But the law should not be ballooned up in order to save cabinet members and senators from having to do their sworn duty under the law and the constitution.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Highly debatable, my friend. Their intentions were known long before that day. I submit the following for your consideration:



Gotta call it what it is, man. Otherwise, as so many have said, you leave the door just a bit wider than it was before for the next Trump...and, as the video warns, perhaps they'll be a bit better at it, to where they actually stand a chance of success. Our friends to the south dodged a bullet...it's not wise to call it a pebble.

 

[Rexedgar]

Seriously, who did not see this coming? Four years of Nazi rallies didn't let you know something ugly was brewing?

HHS & FBI & Metro PD & Cap. Police & CBP & many other alphabet agencies want us to believe they didn’t “see this coming!”

 

[NWRatCon]

The purpose of a coup is to seize control of the state from the legitimately elected or appointed persons in control of the state. An insurrection heeds to be well armed in order to have any hope to succeed. Neither of these conditions were met by the riot and rioters who broke into the Capitol.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. Insurrections do not require much effort to earn the moniker, it's more about intent. There were, by the way, some seriously armed individuals involved, although, as I said, I didn't think they had a prayer of success. What they set out to do, however, was broadcast in advance, coordinated and initially successful in that they did disrupt the vote and intimidate the legislature - things that Trump specifically expected of them.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Specifically defines "seditious conspiracy" broadly to include "to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof". Did they use force? Absolutely. Were more than two involved? Yes. Did they oppose authority, hinder or delay the execution of any law, and seize possession of any property of the United States? Yes, yes, and yes. Perhaps the quibble is the use of the term "coup" - but Sedition clearly happened, almost by definition. I would have very little difficulty proving the case in court with regard to dozens of the participants, including Herr Drumpf and Benito Giuliani.

 

[rocket88]

I didnt really think so, but as more info comes out, I have to wonder if it wasnt an incompetent attempt.

1. Capitol Police were completely and mysteriously unprepared, even though they knew a large crowd with violent rhetoric was going to be there.
2. Help was refused several times while the event was being planned - the FBI, etc. When the other BLM protests happened, Park Police, other federal branches were mobilized.
3. As the Capitol was breached, there was no response from the WH and DoD (which Trump stripped the leadership of, mysteriously, right after the election) for hours. Reportedly, people were roaming the Capitol looking specificially to ‘get’ Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi.
4. When the order to mobilize the NG was given, it came reportedly from PENCE, not Trump.
5. The secretary of the Army was the one who gave the order to mobilize the MD Guard, not the usual channels.
6. We came pretty close to having a mob take out the next three replacements for the President - the VP, and Speaker.
Of course, this is a bit of a half assed and incompetent coup attempt, which would be exactly what you would expect from an incompetent president.

Seems odd.

It was absolutely a coup attempt.

 

[rocket88]

It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'etat region of france, otherwise it's just sparkling white nationalism

Omg. Hilarious.

 

[Evilroddy]

We'll agree to disagree on this one. Insurrections do not require much effort to earn the moniker, it's more about intent. There were, by the way, some seriously armed individuals involved, although, as I said, I didn't think they had a prayer of success. What they set out to do, however, was broadcast in advance, coordinated and initially successful in that they did disrupt the vote and intimidate the legislature - things that Trump specifically expected of them.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Specifically defines "seditious conspiracy" broadly to include "to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof". Did they use force? Absolutely. Were more than two involved? Yes. Did they oppose authority, hinder or delay the execution of any law, and seize possession of any property of the United States? Yes, yes, and yes. Perhaps the quibble is the use of the term "coup" - but Sedition clearly happened, almost by definition. I would have very little difficulty proving the case in court with regard to dozens of the participants, including Herr Drumpf and Benito Giuliani.

NWRatCon:

The only "seriously armed" individual whom I have read about is the protester who had 11 Molotov cocktails, a semi-automatic rifle and a semi-automatic pistol plus ammunition stowed in his car, a block and a half away from the Capitol Park. As these were not on his person while he was in the Capitol, that tends to weaken the "seriously armed" argument. Others may have been armed with firearms but I am not yet aware of any such cases yet.

You'll get no argument from me on your case for sedition, at least for those who engineered the riot. Proving intent of the rioters may be more difficult for some and easier for others, so we'll have to let that one play out. I've been characterising what has been going on for the last two years as sedition from the get go.

However the phrases/words coup d'etat and insurrection I reason are exagerations born out of a political desire by those in power to avoid having to take the hard steps necessary to remove Mr. Trump from office and to ban him from ever running again for elected office in America through House impeachment and Senate trial. Political expediency should never reshape reality, IMHO.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Nickyjo]

I didnt really think so, but as more info comes out, I have to wonder if it wasnt an incompetent attempt.

1. Capitol Police were completely and mysteriously unprepared, even though they knew a large crowd with violent rhetoric was going to be there.
2. Help was refused several times while the event was being planned - the FBI, etc. When the other BLM protests happened, Park Police, other federal branches were mobilized.
3. As the Capitol was breached, there was no response from the WH and DoD (which Trump stripped the leadership of, mysteriously, right after the election) for hours. Reportedly, people were roaming the Capitol looking specificially to ‘get’ Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi.
4. When the order to mobilize the NG was given, it came reportedly from PENCE, not Trump.
5. The secretary of the Army was the one who gave the order to mobilize the MD Guard, not the usual channels.
6. We came pretty close to having a mob take out the next three replacements for the President - the VP, and Speaker.
Of course, this is a bit of a half assed and incompetent coup attempt, which would be exactly what you would expect from an incompetent president.

Seems odd.

I wouldnt go down that road of analysis. Sometimes incompetence and coincidence combine to masquerade as conspiracy. I think it came from a combination of Trump’s ego-fueled denial of reality since November, the strange cult-like loyalty an obvious hustler like him commands, the strong presence of Q-types and ONAN followers, Trump and Giuliani’s dangerous words, and the mob phenomenon. Some participants were obviously bent on something, given the plastic cuffs and reported IED found, but I don’t buy the coup attempt. It was a massive political tantrum led by the tantrum thrower-in-chief.
Trump will probably pay no price for this - except for a successful impeachment ruining any 2024 plans - unlike those fools who may get criminally charged. Trump is smarter than Jim Jones was. He lets others take the Kool-Aid, but as he points out, he doesn’t drink.