Was it a Ukrainian missile or just a fire on the Russian ship?

[independentusa]

The largest Russian warship in the Black Sea is on fire and may sink. The Ukrainian government says it was hit by their missile, while the Russians say it started with fire that set of ammunition on the ship. I guess, does it really matter? Either way it is not a good look for the Russians. Either the Ukrainians have missiles that make the Russian ships too vulnerable to stay close to shore, or the poor maintenance and/or construction of the Russian ship caused the ship's possible destruction. I do know that Russian's military equipment is not always constructed well. India bought Russian Migs and they had to have 62% of the jets engines replaced as they were so poorly constructed that India was afraid to have their piolets fly them. Not a good look, so the Russians might have been right that it was a fire and ammunition that caused the ship's problems.

 

[Loulit01]

The largest Russian warship in the Black Sea is on fire and may sink. The Ukrainian government says it was hit by their missile, while the Russians say it started with fire that set of ammunition on the ship. I guess, does it really matter? Either way it is not a good look for the Russians. Either the Ukrainians have missiles that make the Russian ships too vulnerable to stay close to shore, or the poor maintenance and/or construction of the Russian ship caused the ship's possible destruction. I do know that Russian's military equipment is not always constructed well. India bought Russian Migs and they had to have 62% of the jets engines replaced as they were so poorly constructed that India was afraid to have their piolets fly them. Not a good look, so the Russians might have been right that it was a fire and ammunition that caused the ship's problems.

I agree. We've all heard horror stories about the state of their nuclear arsenal, especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I think we will find out the truth about what happened to the Moskva fairly soon. We gotta have satellites trained on that area.

 

[Craig234]

Given that Russia says it was fire, and Ukraine says it was their missile, I'd put it about 98% missile, 2% fire. Then add in the 'coincidence; that a major fire just happens to happen in this war, and ya, I think it's over 99% missile.

 

[Cardinal]

Was it the missile or was it the fire? Did somebody die because they were shot or did they die due to blood loss from the bullet?

In any case, the ship still hasn't sunk, though it seems to be on fire about right now. But sunk or not, the ship is out of the fight, which means that Russia has precisely zero guided missile cruisers in the Black Sea, and Turkey seems unlikely to let the other two Slava class cruisers currently in the Mediterranean enter. There are no doubt a good many destroyers in the Black Sea, but to my knowledge these don't have anywhere near the missile capabilities that a guided cruiser does. Those things are mostly for killing subs and firing on land. And what that means is that any Russian ship that gets to within 300km of Ukrainian-controlled space can be sunk too. And compared to a missile cruiser, very easily.

To illustrate how devastating this loss was tactically for Russia, Russia has just lost easy control of all the waters West of Crimea.

 

[Deuce]

"Our flagship spontaneously caught fire and may sink" is not out of the question when it comes to the general competence of the Russian military but it would be a hell of a coincidence.

 

[Roadvirus]

The largest Russian warship in the Black Sea is on fire and may sink. The Ukrainian government says it was hit by their missile, while the Russians say it started with fire that set of ammunition on the ship. I guess, does it really matter? Either way it is not a good look for the Russians. Either the Ukrainians have missiles that make the Russian ships too vulnerable to stay close to shore, or the poor maintenance and/or construction of the Russian ship caused the ship's possible destruction. I do know that Russian's military equipment is not always constructed well. India bought Russian Migs and they had to have 62% of the jets engines replaced as they were so poorly constructed that India was afraid to have their piolets fly them. Not a good look, so the Russians might have been right that it was a fire and ammunition that caused the ship's problems.

Whatever caused it, it's still 1 less Russian ship causing problems for Ukraine.

 

[ataraxia]

Was it the missile or was it the fire? Did somebody die because they were shot or did they die due to blood loss from the bullet?

In any case, the ship still hasn't sunk, though it seems to be on fire about right now. But sunk or not, the ship is out of the fight, which means that Russia has precisely zero guided missile cruisers in the Black Sea, and Turkey seems unlikely to let the other two Slava class cruisers currently in the Mediterranean enter. There are no doubt a good many destroyers in the Black Sea, but to my knowledge these don't have anywhere near the missile capabilities that a guided cruiser does. Those things are mostly for killing subs and firing on land. And what that means is that any Russian ship that gets to within 300km of Ukrainian-controlled space can be sunk too. And compared to a missile cruiser, very easily.

To illustrate how devastating this loss was tactically for Russia, Russia has just lost easy control of all the waters West of Crimea.

Aren't the British promising more anti-ship missiles for the Ukrainians? If that's the case, then bring in those Russian ships and I'm sure there will be more "accidental fires" on them too.

 

[Cardinal]

Aren't the British promising more anti-ship missiles for the Ukrainians? If that's the case, then bring in those Russian ships and I'm sure there will be more "accidental fires" on them too.

While I should never underestimate Russian incompetence, it would shock me if Russia allowed any ships within Neptune range. The Movska was the bulwark of their Black Sea dominance. With medium range anti-ship missiles with US coordinate capabilities on one side, and only destroyers and subs on the other, the sea combat component of this war is effectively over.

 

[The Mark]

The largest Russian warship in the Black Sea is on fire and may sink. The Ukrainian government says it was hit by their missile, while the Russians say it started with fire that set of ammunition on the ship. I guess, does it really matter? Either way it is not a good look for the Russians. Either the Ukrainians have missiles that make the Russian ships too vulnerable to stay close to shore, or the poor maintenance and/or construction of the Russian ship caused the ship's possible destruction. I do know that Russian's military equipment is not always constructed well. India bought Russian Migs and they had to have 62% of the jets engines replaced as they were so poorly constructed that India was afraid to have their piolets fly them. Not a good look, so the Russians might have been right that it was a fire and ammunition that caused the ship's problems.

Barring video of the missile strike we probably can't say for sure, but I trust the Ukrainians over the Russians.

Also I note that in your rendition of their statement, they Russians didn't say one way or the other whether a missile set the fire.

 

[Cardinal]

Was it the missile or was it the fire? Did somebody die because they were shot or did they die due to blood loss from the bullet?

In any case, the ship still hasn't sunk, though it seems to be on fire about right now. But sunk or not, the ship is out of the fight, which means that Russia has precisely zero guided missile cruisers in the Black Sea, and Turkey seems unlikely to let the other two Slava class cruisers currently in the Mediterranean enter. There are no doubt a good many destroyers in the Black Sea, but to my knowledge these don't have anywhere near the missile capabilities that a guided cruiser does. Those things are mostly for killing subs and firing on land. And what that means is that any Russian ship that gets to within 300km of Ukrainian-controlled space can be sunk too. And compared to a missile cruiser, very easily.

To illustrate how devastating this loss was tactically for Russia, Russia has just lost easy control of all the waters West of Crimea.

Update: it sank while being towed to port.

 

[jnug]

Well it is now being reported that the ship has sunk. I am inclined to think it was a missile attack. Then again the Russians appear more willing to contend that they either purposefully or stupidly sabotaged their own ship and send it to the bottom.

 

[Luce]

So either the Russians were incompetent and got suckered, or the Russians are even more incompetent and burned their own flagship down.

 

[Loulit01]

Russian warship Moskva sinks in Black Sea, Russian Ministry of Defense reported via state media

The US and EU have pledged a combined $1.3 billion more in military aid for Ukraine as Russia prepares to launch an eastern offensive.

www.cnn.com

If it was a missile strike we'll know for sure soon I think.

 

[Cardinal]

So either the Russians were incompetent and got suckered, or the Russians are even more incompetent and burned their own flagship down.

It was a carefully planned and coordinated operation. The Ukrainians overwhelmed their radar with decoys so they could shove a couple Neptunes up the ship's ass from the other side. You get three guesses where they got the real time coordinates for the ship, and the first two don't count.

I think this operation has been in the works for a long time.

 

[justabubba]

Was it the missile or was it the fire? Did somebody die because they were shot or did they die due to blood loss from the bullet?

In any case, the ship still hasn't sunk, though it seems to be on fire about right now. But sunk or not, the ship is out of the fight, which means that Russia has precisely zero guided missile cruisers in the Black Sea, and Turkey seems unlikely to let the other two Slava class cruisers currently in the Mediterranean enter. There are no doubt a good many destroyers in the Black Sea, but to my knowledge these don't have anywhere near the missile capabilities that a guided cruiser does. Those things are mostly for killing subs and firing on land. And what that means is that any Russian ship that gets to within 300km of Ukrainian-controlled space can be sunk too. And compared to a missile cruiser, very easily.

To illustrate how devastating this loss was tactically for Russia, Russia has just lost easy control of all the waters West of Crimea.

it officially became a submarine

Russia’s Moskva cruiser sinks following Ukrainian claim of missile strike

Russia initially denied reports that warship sank, then later claimed it went down in stormy seas while being towed to port

www.theguardian.com

Western officials described the Ukrainian claims to have hit the Moskva with anti-ship missiles as “credible”. A senior US defence official noted that five other Russian vessels which had been as close or closer to the Ukrainian coast as the Moskva had moved at least another 20 nautical miles offshore after the explosion, suggesting an effort to get out of range of Ukrainian missiles.

 

[jnug]

While I should never underestimate Russian incompetence, it would shock me if Russia allowed any ships within Neptune range. The Movska was the bulwark of their Black Sea dominance. With medium range anti-ship missiles with US coordinate capabilities on one side, and only destroyers and subs on the other, the sea combat component of this war is effectively over.

Well the additional reporting is that other ships in the Black Sea Fleet are moving south. More than suggesting that they were within range.

 

[Cardinal]

Well the additional reporting is that other ships in the Black Sea Fleet are moving south. More than suggesting that they were within range.

Sure, all you need to do is draw a 300km radius around the Ukraine-controlled coast on google maps, and you can see that the remaining Russian navy is effectively out of the game.