Was America Doomed from the Outset?

[calamity]

Here's a really interesting article which points out that almost all of the systems of government which split power between a president and a legislature have failed. The one lone exception--us.
Jonathan Chait on the Government Shutdown -- New York Magazine

Linz attributed our puzzling, anomalous stability to “the uniquely diffuse character of American political parties.” The Republicans had loads of moderates, and conservative whites in the South still clung to the Democratic Party. At the time he wrote that, the two parties were already sorting themselves into more ideologically pure versions, leaving us where we stand today: with one racially and economically polyglot party of center-left technocracy and one ethnically homogenous reactionary party....

Traditionally, when American politics encountered the problem of divided government—when, say, Nixon and Eisenhower encountered Democratic Congresses, or Bill Clinton a Republican one—one of two things happened. Either both sides found enough incentives to work together despite their differences, or there was what we used to recognize as the only alternative: gridlock...

The debt ceiling turns out to be unexploded ordnance lying around the American form of government. Only custom or moral compunction stops the opposition party from using it to nullify the president’s powers, or, for that matter, the president from using it to nullify Congress’s. (Obama could, theoretically, threaten to veto a debt ceiling hike unless Congress attaches it to the creation of single-payer health insurance.) To weaponize the debt ceiling, you must be willing to inflict harm on millions of innocent people. It is a shockingly powerful self-destruct button built into our very system of government, but only useful for the most ideologically hardened or borderline sociopathic...

Of course, the president probably could ignore Congress and raise the debt ceiling by executive order....but, either way, whether congress blackmails the president or he does an end around, once we go down that road, our system of government is doomed.

 

[lizzie]

I don't believe it was doomed from the outset, but I do believe it became doomed when we started the practice of social welfare programs. If people couldn't vote themselves money and benefits (both at the individual and corporate levels), and were instead voting what is best for the country as a whole, we'd still have the greatest country around. The founding principles were rock solid. It just took some evolution in thought and culture, which did, in fact, happen. The problem nowadays is that everyone just wants their piece of the pie, and that pie should not exist imo.

 

[TurtleDude]

I don't believe it was doomed from the outset, but I do believe it became doomed when we started the practice of social welfare programs. If people couldn't vote themselves money and benefits (both at the individual and corporate levels), and were instead voting what is best for the country as a whole, we'd still have the greatest country around. The founding principles were rock solid. It just took some evolution in thought and culture, which did, in fact, happen. The problem nowadays is that everyone just wants their piece of the pie, and that pie should not exist imo.

excellent point. the doom started with the passage of the idiotic 16th amendment. Once congress realized the power it could grab by using income taxation to divide and conquer, the slide started. When FDR's lapdogs allowed the tenth amendment to be destroyed and gave congress the power to pretty much do anything it wanted, the comment that a democracy dies when the masses learn they can vote themselves the contents of the public treasury, became inevitable

 

[calamity]

What will Obama do if the Debt Ceiling is not raised? It creates a true conundrum.

If President Obama spends what the law orders him to spend and collects the taxes Congress has authorized him to collect, then he must borrow more than Congress has authorized him to borrow. If the debt ceiling is not raised, he will have to violate one of these constitutional imperatives. Which should he choose?

In 2011, when Congress last flirted with not raising the debt ceiling, lawyers disagreed. Some argued that the president must honor the debt ceiling, thereby violating budget laws. Others held that he must honor budget legislation. No one argued that he should unilaterally raise taxes. Professors Neil H. Buchanan and Michael C. Dorf, who parsed the arguments in the Columbia Law Review in 2012, concluded that all options were bad, but that disregarding the debt ceiling was least bad from a legal standpoint.

...the consequences are so overwhelmingly on one side that they cannot be ignored by the president and should not be ignored by the courts. If the debt ceiling is not increased, the president should disregard it, and honor spending and tax legislation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/opinion/obama-should-ignore-the-debt-ceiling.html

Ignoring Congress would indeed be his best option. And, that really does put us dead smack in the middle of a constitutional crisis.

 

[Harshaw]

Of course, the president probably could ignore Congress and raise the debt ceiling by executive order....

No, he can't. You have a woeful misunderstanding of what Execute Orders are and what they can do.

 

[rathi]

Our system of government is not doomed. The current lunacy might cause plenty of damage, but its not even close to being able to destroy it. We have yet to cross the Rubicon with regards to debt ceiling and even if we do, it still wouldn't be worse than the civil war. The problems we face are important, but there is no cause to throw around ridiculous hyperbole. After all, that kind of emotional garbage is what got us into this mess.

 

[calamity]

excellent point. the doom started with the passage of the idiotic 16th amendment. Once congress realized the power it could grab by using income taxation to divide and conquer, the slide started. When FDR's lapdogs allowed the tenth amendment to be destroyed and gave congress the power to pretty much do anything it wanted, the comment that a democracy dies when the masses learn they can vote themselves the contents of the public treasury, became inevitable

Where and what would you like to cut?
2013 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm for slashing that $670B we blow on the Military; and, I suspect that there is quite a bit of fat in that $941B we spend on Health and Human services, including Medicare. Moving down the list, why spend $140B on Veterans? And, look at all the $50B's we spend on Departments, from HUD to State to Homeland Security. And why on earth does Ag get $150B and Labor another $100? Do you see that $100B for Treasury? WTF is that for? Oh, and another black hole: $882B for Social Security.

Anyway, you get my point. Where do you want to start cutting?

 

[Fiddytree]

We've been there and done that before. We'll be fine.

 

[calamity]

No, he can't. You have a woeful misunderstanding of what Execute Orders are and what they can do.

Who's going to stop him? And, how?

REad the article I posted in post #4.

 

[lizzie]

Where and what would you like to cut?
2013 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm for slashing that $670B we blow on the Military; and, I suspect that there is quite a bit of fat in that $941B we spend on Health and Human services, including Medicare. Moving down the list, why spend $140B on Veterans? And, look at all the $50B's we spend on Departments, from HUD to State to Homeland Security. And why on earth does Ag get $150B and Labor another $100? Do you see that $100B for Treasury? WTF is that for? Oh, and another black hole: $882B for Social Security.

Anyway, you get my point. Where do you want to start cutting?

Military expenditures are constitutional. Social spending is questionable at best.

 

[calamity]

Military expenditures are constitutional. Social spending is questionable at best.

I doubt all Trillion of the Defense related dollars are really "constitutional". $140B to Veterans and roughly $60 to the State Department, plus $55 more to Homeland Security...wtf?

Oh, and did you see that $52B for National Intelligence Program? That makes over $100B for "Homeland Security" plus $200B more for vets and whatever John Kerry has up his sleeve, all of it over and above the $670B we spend on Military.

 

[TurtleDude]

Where and what would you like to cut?
2013 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm for slashing that $670B we blow on the Military; and, I suspect that there is quite a bit of fat in that $941B we spend on Health and Human services, including Medicare. Moving down the list, why spend $140B on Veterans? And, look at all the $50B's we spend on Departments, from HUD to State to Homeland Security. And why on earth does Ag get $150B and Labor another $100? Do you see that $100B for Treasury? WTF is that for? Oh, and another black hole: $882B for Social Security.

Anyway, you get my point. Where do you want to start cutting?

America is a like a heroin addict. addicted to years of unconstitutional welfare programs leading people like Scalia to note that actually enforcing the constitution would cause too much painful upheavals.

we can start by getting rid of the next scheme to cause dependency-ObamaCare

then start getting rid of the progressive income tax scheme

 

[calamity]

America is a like a heroin addict. addicted to years of unconstitutional welfare programs leading people like Scalia to note that actually enforcing the constitution would cause too much painful upheavals.

we can start by getting rid of the next scheme to cause dependency-ObamaCare

then start getting rid of the progressive income tax scheme

I'm all for eliminating income tax. And, when the people who don;t like Obamacare have enough votes to repeal it, they should. But for the minority to put a gun to the head of the majority is not the right way to go about it. Unless, they want to blow us the system.

I suspect, Obama will ignore congress if they don't raise the debt. He really has no choice. He can't not pay what we owe, and he can't confiscate treasure, so he will have to send Congress the finger. That should make it interesting.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm all for eliminating income tax. And, when the people who don;t like Obamacare have enough votes to repeal it, they should. But for the minority to put a gun to the head of the majority is not the right way to go about it. Unless, they want to blow us the system.

I suspect, Obama will ignore congress if they don't raise the debt. He really has no choice. He can't not pay what we owe, and he can't confiscate treasure, so he will have to send Congress the finger. That should make it interesting.

The majority of congress (the House) don't want obamacare

The majority of the people don't want Obamacare

 

[lizzie]

I doubt all Trillion of the Defense related dollars are really "constitutional". $140B to Veterans and roughly $60 to the State Department, plus $55 more to Homeland Security...wtf?

Oh, and did you see that $52B for National Intelligence Program? That makes over $100B for "Homeland Security" plus $200B more for vets and whatever John Kerry has up his sleeve, all of it over and above the $670B we spend on Military.

I am not saying that I support the huge sums of money spent on the military- just that it's constitutional. If I were making the decisions, we would be much more isolationist, trim the military way back, and avoid foreign military actions in all but the most extreme cases.

 

[calamity]

1.The majority of congress (the House) don't want obamacare

2.The majority of the people don't want Obamacare

1. THat's not enough to repeal. You know that. We have a system of gvt that requires two houses and a president's signature. Absent that signature, it takes 2/3 to override him. You know that. We do not have a system of government where a minority can hold the budget hostage in an effort to bypass the above protocol.

2. Apparently not enough to vote him out and put Romney in as President in 2012. Obamacare, repealing it, was definitely on the agenda when the People voted in Mr Obama and all those Democratic Senators in 2012.

 

[calamity]

I am not saying that I support the huge sums of money spent on the military- just that it's constitutional. If I were making the decisions, we would be much more isolationist, trim the military way back, and avoid foreign military actions in all but the most extreme cases.

I estimate that of the Trillion, $500B could easily be trimmed off if we did what you say. And, we should.

 

[lizzie]

I estimate that of the Trillion, $500B could easily be trimmed off if we did what you say. And, we should.

Not before we get rid of the unconstitutional spending.

 

[calamity]

Not before we get rid of the unconstitutional spending.

Where and how will that come about? No one is cutting the roughly $2T we spend on HHS, Medicare and SS. Hell, we can't even find it within ourselves to cut the $150B we hand out to "farmers" and agribus--who don't even need the money or put it to good use.

 

[TurtleDude]

1. THat's not enough to repeal. You know that. We have a system of gvt that requires two houses and a president's signature. Absent that signature, it takes 2/3 to override him. You know that. We do not have a system of government where a minority can hold the budget hostage in an effort to bypass the above protocol.

2. Apparently not enough to vote him out and put Romney in as President in 2012. Obamacare, repealing it, was definitely on the agenda when the People voted in Mr Obama and all those Democratic Senators in 2012.

that wasn't the point you made

 

[Jack Hays]

Here's a really interesting article which points out that almost all of the systems of government which split power between a president and a legislature have failed. The one lone exception--us.
Jonathan Chait on the Government Shutdown -- New York Magazine



Of course, the president probably could ignore Congress and raise the debt ceiling by executive order....but, either way, whether congress blackmails the president or he does an end around, once we go down that road, our system of government is doomed.

Just business as usual . . .

Our political system was designed for stalemateeace

Here's a brief excerpt:

"Some Democrats take comfort in the fact that the country’s demographics will eventually produce electoral majorities for their party. But the system is designed to empower minorities and block majorities, so the current stalemate is likely to persist for many years. Obama has criticized the House Republicans for trying to relitigate the last election. That’s true, but that’s also what our political system was designed to do."

 

[calamity]

that wasn't the point you made

Sure it was: There are not enough votes to repeal the law.

 

[TurtleDude]

Sure it was: There are not enough votes to repeal the law.

That wasn't the issue

the issue is that the majority doesn't support Obamacare

 

[calamity]

Just business as usual . . .

Our political system was designed for stalemateeace

Here's a brief excerpt:

"Some Democrats take comfort in the fact that the country’s demographics will eventually produce electoral majorities for their party. But the system is designed to empower minorities and block majorities, so the current stalemate is likely to persist for many years. Obama has criticized the House Republicans for trying to relitigate the last election. That’s true, but that’s also what our political system was designed to do."

Agreed. That's why we hope more than see real change. Change takes a lot to make happen. However, this debt thing will truly come down to a major power play where the two powers: COngress and the PResident will go toe to toe.

1. Let's say Congress fails to extend the debt ceiling.
2. Let's say Obama ignores Congress and pays Bills with money we don't legally have by using tricks within Treasury.
3. The House impeaches during as we approach an election year.
4. Senate acquits right before the election.
5. The voters come out during the midterm to reward the innocent and condemn the guilty, which usually doesn't happen, especially in off-year election which only brings out die hard partisans.

 

[calamity]

That wasn't the issue

the issue is that the majority doesn't support Obamacare

They supported it enough not to vote him out and put Romney in. They also voted in a bunch of D senators. I said this already.