War! Good God! What is it good for? (1 Viewer)

[Topsez]

This is the simple base for all debates on the Mid East… one side say we have no interest and the other says we have critical interests in the Mid East…

Energy:

The facts are it would take about forty Budweiser Clydesdale horses to replace the energy consumed by each family in America without oil, natural gas, wind, water and solar energy as a source to supply the requirement. That is a lot of horse crap to flip the switch and have light… to open the box to be greeted by a light with cool food… to alter our environment to temperatures we feel comfortable in. The number of horses is a WAG based on it takes a 10Horse Power generator to provide basic electricity (no AC or heating) and horses don’t work 24 hours a day… we are mobile so we need transportation… we have workplaces hospitals and so on that require energy…

America DEPENDS on ME oil for much of our energy needs and there is no other source to replace this need currently to meet the need and DEMAND. Note: if you disagree then support your reasoning by selecting the second vote choice and explain your reasoning.

If you happen to be a sane logical and reasonable person then you admit, well yes we do REQUIRE the oil from the ME to replace the horses we don’t have to meet our energy needs.

After WWI the victors realized the ME oil was critical to protect Europe in the event of another war in Europe because of the demand for oil war requires. Even after WWII America had little concern about the ME because we had an ample supply of oil in America but encouraged our European allies to secure the ME in the event of future wars.

In recent years the demand for oil has outpaced America’s production capacity and now we find ourselves DEPENDANT on a normal supply of this oil to meet our needs.

Enter imbalance in the ME that may disrupt the supply… Iran moving into Iraq cutting off the access to the gulf… Saddam entering Kuwait to intimidate other ME producers… and now Iran once more intimidating neighbors with WMD’s and excessive military projections than required for self protection…

The past actions by the US in the ME are because our interests are to have an uninterrupted supply of oil to meet our needs… World Oil is in one bucket when it comes to demand… a commodity like wheat, rice or water that when used as a weapon through refusal to provide to the market at fair price results in price increase and availability crippling … an example is Russia threatening former states to cut off fuel if they don’t conform to Russia’s will… Likewise, if one King or dictator has all the oil in the ME and would use it as a weapon it would not be in America’s interest as it would cripple our nation’s economy. The only alternative to diplomacy in the ME is therefore war to recreate the balance and revert to the supply norm.

There is no political party in the US offering to increase production. There is no political party in the US willing to create an alternative resource of energy to replace the ME supply. Until such a party exists or a replacement energy supply is available the US must go to war in the ME to protect herself… It is a simple as that…

 

[liberateamerica]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, the usage of force is occasionally necessary and many of the times in our best interests. Hopefully, our scientists and best minds will be able to come up with a new alternative energy source that is innovative and cost-effective and that also has no adverse effects on the economy or the Earth's environment.

 

[Hatuey]

This is the simple base for all debates on the Mid East… one side say we have no interest and the other says we have critical interests in the Mid East…

Yes let's state the obvious shall we?

Energy:

The facts are it would take about forty Budweiser Clydesdale horses to replace the energy consumed by each family in America without oil, natural gas, wind, water and solar energy as a source to supply the requirement. That is a lot of horse crap to flip the switch and have light… to open the box to be greeted by a light with cool food… to alter our environment to temperatures we feel comfortable in. The number of horses is a WAG based on it takes a 10Horse Power generator to provide basic electricity (no AC or heating) and horses don’t work 24 hours a day… we are mobile so we need transportation… we have workplaces hospitals and so on that require energy…

Yes thats what electricity is for we power hospitals with electricity. You're doing it again...you know stating the obvious?

America DEPENDS on ME oil for much of our energy needs and there is no other source to replace this need currently to meet the need and DEMAND. Note: if you disagree then support your reasoning by selecting the second vote choice and explain your reasoning.

There is solar energy, hydrogen power, hydroelectricity, french fry oil(it's been proven that it can be used to fuel cars and wind power. There are many alternative forms of energy. We just refuse to acknowledge them like you're doing.

If you happen to be a sane logical and reasonable person then you admit, well yes we do REQUIRE the oil from the ME to replace the horses we don’t have to meet our energy needs.

You're only dependent if you refuse to look for other energy sources.

After WWI the victors realized the ME oil was critical to protect Europe in the event of another war in Europe because of the demand for oil war requires. Even after WWII America had little concern about the ME because we had an ample supply of oil in America but encouraged our European allies to secure the ME in the event of future wars.

Link?

In recent years the demand for oil has outpaced America’s production capacity and now we find ourselves DEPENDANT on a normal supply of this oil to meet our needs.

Yes the american dream, shop till ya drop, eat till ya burst and forget any sense of restraint.

Enter imbalance in the ME that may disrupt the supply… Iran moving into Iraq cutting off the access to the gulf… Saddam entering Kuwait to intimidate other ME producers… and now Iran once more intimidating neighbors with WMD’s and excessive military projections than required for self protection…

Any proof that Iran has WMDs? You're starting to sound like those guys who said the same thing about Iraq after 9/11 without any proof.

The past actions by the US in the ME are because our interests are to have an uninterrupted supply of oil to meet our needs… World Oil is in one bucket when it comes to demand… a commodity like wheat, rice or water that when used as a weapon through refusal to provide to the market at fair price results in price increase and availability crippling … an example is Russia threatening former states to cut off fuel if they don’t conform to Russia’s will… Likewise, if one King or dictator has all the oil in the ME and would use it as a weapon it would not be in America’s interest as it would cripple our nation’s economy. The only alternative to diplomacy in the ME is therefore war to recreate the balance and revert to the supply norm.

The Saudi's have oil. Let's invade them. You cant force somebody to sell something to you. And you cant force them to sell it for the price that you want them to sell it to you either. If there is one big goverment regulating all the other little goverments and the prices it sounds alot like communism on a world wide scale.

There is no political party in the US offering to increase production. There is no political party in the US willing to create an alternative resource of energy to replace the ME supply. Until such a party exists or a replacement energy supply is available the US must go to war in the ME to protect herself… It is a simple as that…

Bush wants to tap into our reserves and into Alaska. Thats increasing production. I agree with you until you go off and say "war is the only way" because nobody is willing to look for an alternative source. Going to war to make another country give you what you want is what dictators like Saddam did. Remember?

 

[Topsez]

Yes let's state the obvious shall we?

Yes thats what electricity is for we power hospitals with electricity. You're doing it again...you know stating the obvious?

There is solar energy, hydrogen power, hydroelectricity, french fry oil(it's been proven that it can be used to fuel cars and wind power. There are many alternative forms of energy. We just refuse to acknowledge them like you're doing.

You're only dependent if you refuse to look for other energy sources.

Oh, I don’t refuse to acknowledge alternatives, I myself am in final stages of generating my own electricity from waste motor oil for my home. But we are talking of millions of barrels of oil a day that need to be replaced I think it is something like 67,000,000 barrels a day … it is in one of the links below… in the meantime take a look at what happened a while back at this link: Oil crisis.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

Link?

World War I, incidentally, created the long-prevailing Mideast problem. The tremendous potential for discovery and development there created a rivalry between the great powers in their search for oil independence.
The years 1911 to 1914 brought about British realization that ships could not run at the required 25 knots with any fuel except oil. Therefore, on July 17, 1913, Winston Churchill announced that the British would supply their own oil from sources under British control or influence. The Germans, French, Dutch and Russians were entertaining similar thoughts. Thus began the departure of other countries from dependence on the United States for petroleum.

http://www.searchanddiscovery.net/documents/halbouty02/index.htm

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww1/oil2.html

U.S. oil imports hit record in September
The industry association noted that imports -- both crude and petroleum products -- accounted for 69 per cent of total U.S. demand last month, up from an average of 66.7 per cent for the first nine months of this year, and 65.2 per cent for the corresponding period in 2005.

http://globecareers.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20061019/IBUSOIL19?section=Production

Any proof that Iran has WMDs? You're starting to sound like those guys who said the same thing about Iraq after 9/11 without any proof.

You simply don’t get it I think… if Iran intimidates the other nations in the ME oil production they are in charge… if they stop the delivery of those millions of barrels a day our reserves will empty quickly and then what?

The Saudi's have oil. Let's invade them. You cant force somebody to sell something to you. And you cant force them to sell it for the price that you want them to sell it to you either. If there is one big goverment regulating all the other little goverments and the prices it sounds alot like communism on a world wide scale.

Oil is world commodity like water and grains and commodities should not be used as weapons of war… to do so is an act of war.

Bush wants to tap into our reserves and into Alaska. Thats increasing production. I agree with you until you go off and say "war is the only way" because nobody is willing to look for an alternative source. Going to war to make another country give you what you want is what dictators like Saddam did. Remember?

Saddam wanted total control of ME oil… we are minus 67 billion barrels of oil every day… how many holes in Alaska and off shore would that take to replace? Imagine the space 67,000,000 barrels of oil would take stacked on one level of 55 gallon drums… though it doesn’t come in drums the thought of such a group of barrels is mind boggling and then multiply it by 365… where oh where will solar and vegetable oil come from to replace this stack of barrels?

 

[Hatuey]

Oh, I don’t refuse to acknowledge alternatives, I myself am in final stages of generating my own electricity from waste motor oil for my home. But we are talking of millions of barrels of oil a day that need to be replaced I think it is something like 67,000,000 barrels a day … it is in one of the links below… in the meantime take a look at what happened a while back at this link: Oil crisis.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

Oh so you agree that it can be done we're just lazy.

You simply don’t get it I think… if Iran intimidates the other nations in the ME oil production they are in charge… if they stop the delivery of those millions of barrels a day our reserves will empty quickly and then what?

But Iran hasnt intimidated other ME oil producing countries and btw you said 3 if's in the same paragraph stop it, it makes you sound like one of the 3rd graders in my little sisters class.

Oil is world commodity like water and grains and commodities should not be used as weapons of war… to do so is an act of war.

People in america refuse to give service everyday. Refusing to sell some countries oil isnt an act of war. Bombing a country for not selling you oil is an act of war. It also fuels the minds of those who accuse the U.S. of going to war to steal oil and we really dont want that do we?

Saddam wanted total control of ME oil… we are minus 67 billion barrels of oil every day… how many holes in Alaska and off shore would that take to replace? Imagine the space 67,000,000 barrels of oil would take stacked on one level of 55 gallon drums… though it doesn’t come in drums the thought of such a group of barrels is mind boggling and then multiply it by 365… where oh where will solar and vegetable oil come from to replace this stack of barrels?

There is no such thing as solar oil. It's solar power. And we get solar energy everyday. In case you havent caught on solar power is like saying sun power. We get that 365 days of the year. And the rest can be hydrogen powered. But alas you dont get the fact that due to the fact that there is so much reliance on oil, the impact of it's polution will get to the point where other sources of energy will be unusable.

 

[ProudAmerican]

the same people that claim we have no business in the ME were the ones bitching the loudest when gas got above 3.00 a gallon.

Americans love their oil. Even the hypocrits that blame Bush for fighting a war for oil love their oil.

 

[alienken]

I just need to answer the question once and for all. War! Good God! What is it good for?.....Answer: For bringing peace by doing away with your enemies.

 

[Topsez]

Oh so you agree that it can be done we're just lazy.

I didn't say that, I said it will take some major alternative energy accomplishments to replace 67,000,000 barrels of oil we import each day... it will take years of conversion to make a dent on the import of foreign oil.

But Iran hasnt intimidated other ME oil producing countries and btw you said 3 if's in the same paragraph stop it, it makes you sound like one of the 3rd graders in my little sisters class.

If Iran were Cuba with its oil resources and said first we will destroy Israel and then the United States and were building nukes would you be scared or concerned? You have to be at a third grade level to not understand the neighborhood of Iran is watching Iran's every move.

People in america refuse to give service everyday. Refusing to sell some countries oil isnt an act of war. Bombing a country for not selling you oil is an act of war. It also fuels the minds of those who accuse the U.S. of going to war to steal oil and we really dont want that do we?

You are so ignorant I don't know why I bother to respond... If a water supply for Southern California was diverted to another state causing California to cease to exist there is no crime... no recourse? Let's make another example... say a river has flowed from the US to Mexico since the beginning of recorded history and suddenly the US diverts the river to irrigate a desert farming operation leaving Mexico with no water there is no recourse from Mexico ... they should just suck it up...

There is no such thing as solar oil. It's solar power. And we get solar energy everyday. In case you havent caught on solar power is like saying sun power. We get that 365 days of the year. And the rest can be hydrogen powered. But alas you dont get the fact that due to the fact that there is so much reliance on oil, the impact of it's polution will get to the point where other sources of energy will be unusable.

Well, young dude I didn't say solar oil... btw I built an active/passive solar heated home in the 70's, I have sold articles to magazines on solar hot water heating since living here in PR... I'm a contributor to Otherpower debate site on alternative energy... I've exchanged solar inventions with Home Power Magazine so don't lecture me on solar or alternative energy. There is no economical way to produce hydrogen power at current energy costs, if so then some capitalist would be getting rich doing it... go to HomePowermagazine and take a look at archives to see how easy - difficult hydrogen production is.

Solar power is like saying sun power... yes you are correct you can buy a solar pannel that produces 45 watts for $199.99 at Harbor Freight... if you find a better price let me know... now you need dozens of these to power your battery bank of deep cycle batteries... about thirty batteries at $55 each will do... then you need two or three DC to AC power inverters $750... Oh, you need either a shunt regulator or charge controller to protect the batteries from overcharge and then in five years you need to replace the batteries... I'm not stupid and solar is wonderful clean way to produce energy but ME oil is cheaper... only problem is soldiers have to bleed for us to use it.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Absolutely Nothing

 

[Topsez]

Absolutely Nothing

Cute! But war is what happens when diplomacy fails and the disagreement remains... It is kind of like having an argument over any subject with an opponent without a mature adult to decide who is correct... Our problem is the UN is supposed to be the mature adult but have proved itself to be incompetent and impotent verses important.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Cute! But war is what happens when diplomacy fails and the disagreement remains... It is kind of like having an argument over any subject with an opponent without a mature adult to decide who is correct... Our problem is the UN is supposed to be the mature adult but have proved itself to be incompetent and impotent verses important.

Of course.
I went for the obvious response.

 

[Topsez]

Of course.
I went for the obvious response.

In that case ...

A vote for Democrats is a vote for terrorism and terrorism control of Mideast oil

Someone please support one of the choices on the poll that refutes the information in entry #1 please! Is this subject too difficult of a question to discuss, after all Iraq is the central front on the war on terror?

 

[Iriemon]

... Until such a party exists or a replacement energy supply is available the US must go to war in the ME to protect herself… It is a simple as that…

What I want to know is, who put all of our oil get under their stupid sand dunes in the first place? Like, don't they know we got all these SUVs?

 

[Iriemon]

In that case ...

A vote for Democrats is a vote for terrorism and terrorism control of Mideast oil

Someone please support one of the choices on the poll that refutes the information in entry #1 please! Is this subject too difficult of a question to discuss, after all Iraq is the central front on the war on terror?

[pssst ... I hate to tell you, ... but it's really not *our* oil over their in the middle east. I don't know how it got there. Blame the dinosaurs.]
............

 

[Topsez]

[pssst ... I hate to tell you, ... but it's really not *our* oil over their in the middle east. I don't know how it got there. Blame the dinosaurs.]
............

Oh, so if Canada diverted the water to the hydro electric plant that Powers the electricity for the northeast we just say hey it is Canada's water...

Reality check... 67,000,000 barrels a day suddenly missing... Oh, we have national reserves... guess what they are for the military to go get the oil flowing again... no trains, no gas at gas stations, no busses ... we would do what? We would get some oil that we don't produce here in America in a hurry... a new patriotic country song and dead oil hoarders until the trucks, trains, cars and planes are back to normal... if you disagree then you are dumber than I think you are... we have no other source to fuel the stuff the ME oil makes move... or do you have a plan like the Democrats have a plan for the war in Iraq?

 

[Volker]

There is no political party in the US offering to increase production. There is no political party in the US willing to create an alternative resource of energy to replace the ME supply. Until such a party exists or a replacement energy supply is available the US must go to war in the ME to protect herself… It is a simple as that…

The US existed without energy from the Middle East and because the oil will not last forever, she will have to learn to live without energy from the Middle East again.

The energy situation does not excuse anything the US does or did in the Middle East.

 

[dragonslayer]

In that case ...

A vote for Democrats is a vote for terrorism and terrorism control of Mideast oil

Someone please support one of the choices on the poll that refutes the information in entry #1 please! Is this subject too difficult of a question to discuss, after all Iraq is the central front on the war on terror?

A Vote For a Republican is vote, for fascism, death, high energy prices, and the further errors in thinking by Bush, Cheney, and ProCorporate elements that want to split the nation between the Very Rich, and the rest of us who just getting by with massive credit card debt, and the Pooor

Modern Neo Republicans (Right Wing Radicals) see america as profits and a lot of property to sell, polute, and exploit. Democrats recognize that people lives and work on the property. Democrats also recognize that the Neo Republicans create terrorists with the policies they put forth. Don't forget that Bush's War, had nothing to with Terrorists, other than creating them after we invaded.

 

[Topsez]

The US existed without energy from the Middle East and because the oil will not last forever, she will have to learn to live without energy from the Middle East again.

The energy situation does not excuse anything the US does or did in the Middle East.

The United States population has grown beyond its oil production to support the nations demand... It has refused to drill in ANWR or offshore... American's root on trial lawyers that find every reason for taking alternatives... Windmills kill birds... Nuclear displaces endangered species... the pristine tundra...

Without the imported oil within weeks airlines all go out of business... there is only enough domestic oil to fuel for trains, trucks, police and military use... Park the car and watch business close because no one will be able to go to a restaurant... ball game... movie... or go anywhere unless they walk...

Reconsider the war option after unemployment goes to 35% and you see no hope for things to get better without a source of oil to make our country competitive.

 

[Topsez]

A Vote For a Republican is vote, for fascism, death, high energy prices, and the further errors in thinking by Bush, Cheney, and ProCorporate elements that want to split the nation between the Very Rich, and the rest of us who just getting by with massive credit card debt, and the Pooor

Modern Neo Republicans (Right Wing Radicals) see america as profits and a lot of property to sell, polute, and exploit. Democrats recognize that people lives and work on the property. Democrats also recognize that the Neo Republicans create terrorists with the policies they put forth. Don't forget that Bush's War, had nothing to with Terrorists, other than creating them after we invaded.

So you are saying we should change the meaning of our constitution… We should amend it to read Life Liberty and the guarantee of happiness. Everyone will not be born equal but the government will make you equal by playing Robin Hood to allow your pursuit of happiness equal to those who studied hard, worked hard and pursued happiness.

No one will secure the interest of the United States that allows the nation to function because we must focus on lifting up each failure in America and not the general welfare of the nation. The general welfare in the constitution was not intended to be a government check but actions taken by the government in the best interests of the nation as a whole… Meat inspections, polio vaccine, interstate highway system… train systems and a military to protect the nation from outside forces that would take away our ability to live free and pursue happiness.

How can ignoring we need 67,000,000 barrels of oil make it appear just like magic? That takes leadership and not hopes or maybe it could happen… when the oil isn’t there no one will pursue happiness in America until it flows again… If the oil stops coming from the ME you will be the first to blame the conservatives as you did in the beginning of your rebuttal… you excuse the fact we use more than we produce… you ignore the fact that every day thousands of new cars are filled up with gas in China that weren’t there yesterday… you just stick your head in the sand and ignore the world around you because you only focus on YOU!

 

[Volker]

The United States population has grown beyond its oil production to support the nations demand... It has refused to drill in ANWR or offshore... American's root on trial lawyers that find every reason for taking alternatives... Windmills kill birds... Nuclear displaces endangered species... the pristine tundra...

Be nice with Canada, Mexico, Russia and Venezuela and there are no problems. Nowhere is written that an average American has to consume ten times as much energy like people in other countries.

Without the imported oil within weeks airlines all go out of business... there is only enough domestic oil to fuel for trains, trucks, police and military use... Park the car and watch business close because no one will be able to go to a restaurant... ball game... movie... or go anywhere unless they walk...

Oh no, you mean people would have to walk to go to a restaurant

Reconsider the war option after unemployment goes to 35% and you see no hope for things to get better without a source of oil to make our country competitive.

If unemployment in the US would be 35% or higher, this would be not a reason to go to war with anybody. Changes can lead to new jobs, too, maybe people are making money with selling power-saving equipment and so.

 

[Topsez]

Be nice with Canada, Mexico, Russia and Venezuela and there are no problems..

We were being nice when they knocked down the twin towers and struck the Pentagon... how could be be nicer? The clerics in Saudi Arabia begged us to place US Air Force bases on their Holly Land out of fear of Saddam... should we have refused? They want to destroy Israel... so should we let them or ask for peace between the Jews and the ME? If we support the Jewish right to exist then the ME muslims tell us if you get cold without our oil then just throw another Jew on the fire.

Nowhere is written that an average American has to consume ten times as much energy like people in other countries.

I agree.

Oh no, you mean people would have to walk to go to a restaurant

We don't have as many foosgangerzones like Germany so we would need two or three pairs of shoes to keep the restaruants in business. And how would you feel if you couldn't hop in your car and freely use your Autobahn because the ME head honcho says today the price for oil is $225 a barrel.

If unemployment in the US would be 35% or higher, this would be not a reason to go to war with anybody. Changes can lead to new jobs, too, maybe people are making money with selling power-saving equipment and so

Yea, those with guns could hire out as guards to keep those starving from robbing us... or we could open rickshaw's transportation... the diamond lane is for three passengers or more during rush hours.... faster faster!

 

[Volker]

We were being nice when they knocked down the twin towers and struck the Pentagon... how could be be nicer? The clerics in Saudi Arabia begged us to place US Air Force bases on their Holly Land out of fear of Saddam... should we have refused? They want to destroy Israel... so should we let them or ask for peace between the Jews and the ME?

None of this explains why to start a war in the Middle East. It is not very probably that a Middle East country sends an army to North America. If there are terrorists planning to coming to North America, a war in the Middle East does not help.

We don't have as many foosgangerzones like Germany so we would need two or three pairs of shoes to keep the restaruants in business.

You can easily live without a car in New York City, I guess, you have metro lines in Los Angeles and in San Francisco, Americans can get along very well without going long way by cars if businesses adapt to the changed situation.

And how would you feel if you couldn't hop in your car and freely use your Autobahn because the ME head honcho says today the price for oil is $225 a barrel.

I wouldn't care.

Yea, those with guns could hire out as guards to keep those starving from robbing us... or we could open rickshaw's transportation... the diamond lane is for three passengers or more during rush hours.... faster faster!

We have bicycle rickshaw's here in Dresden and Berlin, they are more for tourists. There have been areas with about 20% unemployment here for a while, people did not run wild because of it.

 

[Topsez]

None of this explains why to start a war in the Middle East. It is not very probably that a Middle East country sends an army to North America. If there are terrorists planning to coming to North America, a war in the Middle East does not help.

There has never been a fear of an invading army from the ME... to say a war in the ME doesn't help is to say we should have done nothing when terrorists struck NYC and Washington DC... America tried to avoid war with Saddam but he insisted on it. The concern for balance in the ME has been the only reason for the US outside influence... We could care less about the holly land if they reasonably sell oil to the world market... a threat exist to the free world when one dictator tries to push around the other dictator in the ME... Radical Islam has a dual complaint of Israel and US influence in the holly land... until Israel ceases to exist and one dictator doesn't threaten another ME dictator this will not be resolved... Now it is Iran that wants to push around the ME ... before it was Iraq... if we just stand by they will end Israel and then provoke us to enter hostilities with their actions.

You can easily live without a car in New York City, I guess, you have metro lines in Los Angeles and in San Francisco, Americans can get along very well without going long way by cars if businesses adapt to the changed situation.

This is true always of cities but America is a large nation with people who like to live outside of the cities... Our major production of agriculture is dependant upon inexpensive fuel... without fuel the economy implodes.

I wouldn't care.

We have bicycle rickshaw's here in Dresden and Berlin, they are more for tourists. There have been areas with about 20% unemployment here for a while, people did not run wild because of it.

I was on a REFORGER exercise near Dresden in the 80's with the Washington DC National Guard... I prefer Bavaria... I traveled to Berlin to train some soldiers in the Berlin Brigade while the wall was still up ... went through Checkpoint Charlie into communist East Berlin... Berlin is beautiful but getting around without a car or taxi would simply be tough... I would love to go to Prague now that Chez is free... wow but if gas was at E10.00 a liter I would have to pass... gas here is US$0.47 a liter so perhaps you could understand how it would be missed if a terrorist would make it unavailable.

 

[Volker]

There has never been a fear of an invading army from the ME... to say a war in the ME doesn't help is to say we should have done nothing when terrorists struck NYC and Washington DC... America tried to avoid war with Saddam but he insisted on it.

No, it was the other way around, Saddam tried to avoid it, American politicians of both big parties couldn't wait to start their war.

This is true always of cities but America is a large nation with people who like to live outside of the cities... Our major production of agriculture is dependant upon inexpensive fuel... without fuel the economy implodes.

I know it's different for people living in a village. Farmers still could use vegetable oil, our farmers do.

I was on a REFORGER exercise near Dresden in the 80's with the Washington DC National Guard...

You were not very near, I guess, because Dresden is in the Southeast of East Germany :mrgreen:

If you would have been in Dresden between 1985 and 1990, you could have met Mr. Putin, he lived there during this time.

I prefer Bavaria...

I like the mountains and the Technical Museum in Munich.

I traveled to Berlin to train some soldiers in the Berlin Brigade while the wall was still up ... went through Checkpoint Charlie into communist East Berlin... Berlin is beautiful but getting around without a car or taxi would simply be tough...

It's not very funny to drive in Berlin, it's too much traffic, I avoid driving through Berlin when I can can.

I would love to go to Prague now that Chez is free... wow but if gas was at E10.00 a liter I would have to pass... gas here is US$0.47 a liter so perhaps you could understand how it would be missed if a terrorist would make it unavailable.

It's like E1.25 a liter today, probably a little less in the Czech Republic, many people here go there to refuel. The oil in our area and in the Czech Republic is from Russia, I guess.

 

[Iriemon]

Oh, so if Canada diverted the water to the hydro electric plant that Powers the electricity for the northeast we just say hey it is Canada's water...

Reality check... 67,000,000 barrels a day suddenly missing... Oh, we have national reserves... guess what they are for the military to go get the oil flowing again... no trains, no gas at gas stations, no busses ... we would do what? We would get some oil that we don't produce here in America in a hurry... a new patriotic country song and dead oil hoarders until the trucks, trains, cars and planes are back to normal... if you disagree then you are dumber than I think you are... we have no other source to fuel the stuff the ME oil makes move... or do you have a plan like the Democrats have a plan for the war in Iraq?

So your point is a nation is justified in attacking another because of its oil. Gosh, we were wrong to fight the Japanese in WWII, then because we wrongfully withheld their oil that happened to be under our ground, and what would the Japanese do? ... no trains, no gas at gas stations, no busses ... they would do what? They had every right to attack us, we were wrong to resist!

And all this time I thought America was in the right in WWII.