Walter Reed-A Sneak Peek at How Socialized Medicine Would Work

[Inuyasha]

The health insurance business (industry) and it's lobby are one of the engines that run the nation. Really, really expensive fuel. We need a system that will not cause us problems as I understand the British system has but we also need a system that will take care of everyone. This means that if you don't what a national health plan you must go after the insurance companies and severely regulate them. That, in itself, is just another form of socialism and government control which we have been taught to distrust. So it seems that many Americans are between a rock and the grave.

 

[Sergeant Stinger1]

Walter Reed and other V A hospitals don't seem capable enough to provide care for anyone. Plus most V A Hospitals that I went to were rat holes.
~~~~~~
Just another one of "Bushs screwups" by "not planning" on the thousands of our Troops that would be comming home needing medical care.
The only thing Bush planned for in his invasion, was to giving Halliburton BILLION $$$ no bid contracts.
With that said one can only come to the conclusion that $Bush$ cares MORE about $Haliburton$ than our :2usflag: Troops.:2usflag:

 

[aquapub]

Just like old Eire, whom you held out as an example of a rapidly growing nation with a per capita income higher than the US, which has a socialized system including national health care that most liberals here wouldn't even dare to fanatasize about.

Decades upon decades of stagnation...until conservative policies were implemented. THEN they financially exploded. And their economy is still pathetic compared to ours...because they are still very liberal.

I can correct your lying all day. :liar2

 

[aquapub]

Sure, let's just tell the vets to go out and go get their own private insurance.

Hopefully they don't have pre-existing conditions, however, as getting private insurance with a pre-existing condition can be just about impossible.

You could do it just like employers do. Have them pay into it and get the quality care the rest of us get...and the govt. could even subsidize most/all of the costs.

 

[aquapub]

Please give me some sources for that one liner because I don't believe that happens across the board as you are inferring.

Just go to Wikipedia and type in any country name along with "economy."

All the socialist countries have stagnate economies...and the ones that adopt conservative policies immediately explode. Hong Kong, India, China, Ireland, France, most of the European countries all reinforce this.

 

[Inuyasha]

Just go to Wikipedia and type in any country name along with "economy."

All the socialist countries have stagnate economies...and the ones that adopt conservative policies immediately explode. Hong Kong, India, China, Ireland, France, most of the European countries all reinforce this.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't take Wikipedia too seriously. I have found that it has a lot of inaccuracies. Do you have something a little more reliable?

Have you ever lived in a country that does have a national health plan.

 

[aquapub]

1) You'll have to excuse me if I don't take Wikipedia too seriously. I have found that it has a lot of inaccuracies. Do you have something a little more reliable?

2) Have you ever lived in a country that does have a national health plan.

1) Any encyclopedia. What you're suggesting I do would be a lot. Perhaps if you had a less general request for info it might be more feasible. It is easy to go to whatever source you trust and look up all the countries and their economic growth rates. It is also easy to look at when they went Socialist/Capitalist and see the stark contrast in economic performance that follows.

2) Nope. I don't think it's relevent though, considering you don't have to be somewhere to comprehend its economic performance.

 

[rathi]

All the socialist countries have stagnate economies...and the ones that adopt conservative policies immediately explode. Hong Kong, India, China, Ireland, France, most of the European countries all reinforce this.

China had the highest growth rate in the world while still retaining its SOEs. Thereby proving your first statement wrong by counterexample. Private vs Government is something that needs to be assessed for each individual examples. Over-generalization never leads to accurate statements.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that the American healthcare is more efficient than Frances, comparing our private system vs France's universal government funded plan?

 

[Inuyasha]

1) Any encyclopedia. What you're suggesting I do would be a lot. Perhaps if you had a less general request for info it might be more feasible. It is easy to go to whatever source you trust and look up all the countries and their economic growth rates. It is also easy to look at when they went Socialist/Capitalist and see the stark contrast in economic performance that follows.

2) Nope. I don't think it's relevent though, considering you don't have to be somewhere to comprehend its economic performance.

Point one is too easy for me to find information that will condratict you but that's because it would probably come from a bias site. In any event as you are coming from tight of center and I am a die hard radical centrist we will have very different definitions of what socialism is and as to which countries are socialist. I would only speak from the countries that i have been in for a reasonable period of time (1 years minimum) and I don't think you are interested in such a limited number.

I disagree on point two and I will not be moved because experience is a far better yardstick than opinion.

 

[aquapub]

China had the highest growth rate in the world while still retaining its SOEs. Thereby proving your first statement wrong by counterexample. Private vs Government is something that needs to be assessed for each individual examples. Over-generalization never leads to accurate statements.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that the American healthcare is more efficient than Frances, comparing our private system vs France's universal government funded plan?

1) China's economy has absolutely exploded since they started trying conservative economic policies. Their recent explosion is partly responsible for the global fuel shortage.

2) If it weren't it would contradict every piece of evidence I've ever seen on the issue.

Think about this:

Government housing, private housing
Public schools, private schools
Public transportation, private transportation
Government cheese, private cheese
Walter Reed, privately run medical facilities

Everything the government controls blows. Do you really want the genius bureacracies that run the BMV to be in charge of health care?

 

[aquapub]

1) we will have very different definitions of what socialism is and as to which countries are socialist.

2) I disagree on point two and I will not be moved because experience is a far better yardstick than opinion.

1) This should not be debatable at all. Socialist policies are clearly defined as are Socialist countries.

2) Experience living in a country is only necessary to comprehend its economic performance data if you are a slave to experience and cannot think beyond what you are walked through.

 

[Inuyasha]

1) This should not be debatable at all. Socialist policies are clearly defined as are Socialist countries.

2) Experience living in a country is only necessary to comprehend its economic performance data if you are a slave to experience and cannot think beyond what you are walked through.

I disagree totally. You are epressing the opinion of an uninformed multitude. I doubt if we can talk on this subject because all your data is coming from other than experience. What I learned is BT book learning) damn near got me killed in the war. I had to learn what to do from EXPERIENCE not from the word of a drill sergeant or a field manual. You speak with the voice of total authority bur you do not seem to have that authority. If you believe what the MS says about other countries you are believing in "feel good" information. I hope you will be able to have the expediences I have had (except for the military one) then you'll understand what I am talking about. I am sorry if I sound a little insulting but truly if you think about it, "Experience is the best teacher" is a maxim that has been around for a long time. I have to accept that over the simplistic view view of the world you have expressed here.

 

[rathi]

China still had their entire economy based on state-run enterprises when they started growing. The only got rid of them around 2000.

And pub, why don't you answer my question about the efficiency of france vs U.S. healthcare.

 

[aquapub]

I disagree totally. You are epressing the opinion of an uninformed multitude. I doubt if we can talk on this subject because all your data is coming from other than experience. What I learned is BT book learning) damn near got me killed in the war. I had to learn what to do from EXPERIENCE not from the word of a drill sergeant or a field manual. You speak with the voice of total authority bur you do not seem to have that authority. If you believe what the MS says about other countries you are believing in "feel good" information. I hope you will be able to have the expediences I have had (except for the military one) then you'll understand what I am talking about. I am sorry if I sound a little insulting but truly if you think about it, "Experience is the best teacher" is a maxim that has been around for a long time. I have to accept that over the simplistic view view of the world you have expressed here.

It's not simplistic to not need to be walked through a country to accurately analyze its economic data.

 

[aquapub]

And pub, why don't you answer my question about the efficiency of france vs U.S. healthcare.

I did:

"If it weren't it would contradict every piece of evidence I've ever seen on the issue."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...ialized-medicine-would-work-4.html#post527658

 

[rathi]

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5
percent in France,

In 2004, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care.

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Cost

France's system covers all French citizens. 15.4% of the American population was not covered in 2004.

Whats your stance now, pub?

 

[aquapub]

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Cost

France's system covers all French citizens. 15.4% of the American population was not covered in 2004.

Whats your stance now, pub?

My stance is, you don't sink the boat for everyone to rescue some stragglers. Unless France's health care system is the first in human history not to blow once the government started running things, I'd guess the efficiency, technology, and quality of care is abysmal.

 

[aquapub]

China still had their entire economy based on state-run enterprises when they started growing. The only got rid of them around 2000.

Actually, China's economy started exploding when they began privatizing things and enacting conservative economic policies in the 1980s.

Here are the reforms they enacted:

"In the 1980s, the PRC tried to combine central planning with market-oriented reforms to increase productivity, living standards, and technological quality without exacerbating inflation, unemployment, and budget deficits. The PRC pursued agricultural reforms, dismantling the commune system and introducing the household responsibility system that provided peasants greater decision-making in agricultural activities. The government also encouraged nonagricultural activities, such as village enterprises in rural areas, and promoted more self-management for state-owned enterprises, increased competition in the marketplace, and facilitated direct contact between mainland Chinese and foreign trading enterprises. The PRC also relied more upon foreign financing and imports."

And here's the effect:

"During the 1980s, these reforms led to average annual rates of growth of 10% in agricultural and industrial output. Rural per capita real income doubled. Industry posted major gains especially in coastal areas near Hong Kong and across the strait from Taiwan, where foreign investment helped spur output of both domestic and export goods. China became self-sufficient in grain production; rural industries accounted for 23% of agricultural output, helping absorb surplus labor in the countryside. The variety of light industrial and consumer goods increased. Reforms began in the fiscal, financial, banking, price setting, and labor systems."

Economy of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Inuyasha]

It's not simplistic to not need to be walked through a country to accurately analyze its economic data.

Well you just keep believeing that and if you live in some place like Iowa and never plan to go anywhere else you've knitted yourself the perfect security blanket.

 

[rathi]

Actually, China's economy started exploding when they began privatizing things and enacting conservative economic policies in the 1980s.

Close, but wrong. China enacted more conservative policies compared to their earlier ones. They were still socialist. Giving a State Owned Enterprise more freedoms doesn't change the fact that it is still a state owned enterprise. I'd agree that China was too state controlled and needed some deregulation. However, that doesn't mean that making things private is always better. Look at Russia or the washington consensus for evidence of that.

My stance is, you don't sink the boat for everyone to rescue some stragglers. Unless France's health care system is the first in human history not to blow once the government started running things, I'd guess the efficiency, technology, and quality of care is abysmal.

Uh I just posted the numbers that conclusively show France's system is more efficient than ours. If they spend less money and cover more people, its clearly more efficient. I have sourced my material. What more evidence could you possibly want?

 

[DeeJayH]

Close, but wrong. China enacted more conservative policies compared to their earlier ones. They were still socialist. Giving a State Owned Enterprise more freedoms doesn't change the fact that it is still a state owned enterprise. I'd agree that China was too state controlled and needed some deregulation. However, that doesn't mean that making things private is always better. Look at Russia or the washington consensus for evidence of that.

did you really expect them to go from one extreme to the other?
usually the pendulum swings across the spectrum from one end to the other over time
revolutions being an obvious exception

 

[rathi]

did you really expect them to go from one extreme to the other?
usually the pendulum swings across the spectrum from one end to the other over time
revolutions being an obvious exception

No, I just meant that calling them conservative was incorrect, given that were still extremely socialist compared to a western countries. More conservative or less socialist would have been more appropriate.

 

[bandaidwoman]

My view from the trenches:

Yes, socialized medicine means dealing with the faceless government, yet we deal with equally faceless health care companies.

Right now we are seeing retreat of some of the nation's largest health maintenance organizations (HMOs) from the care of the poor and the elderly.

Many prominant HMOs have quit Medicare and Medicaid coverage in many different markets.

The bottom line is general operating losses.

Also, if you have some prexisting health problem and your employer decideds to drop their biggest overhead cost of providing health insurance ( which a majority of businesses in this country are doing) you are $hit out of luck.


Regarding the health care system over in Europe,
life expectancy has increased, fertility rates have decreased, and much of Europe faces demographic stagnation. This unfavorable ratio of old to young persons is far worse in major European nations than in either Canada or the United States.


As a whole I think National Health Care does a better job taking care most chronic illnesses ( in terms of preventative care, routine monitoring etc.) I find that my diabetics from England and Canada have impeccable numbers and lab work while those with exotic diseases are worse than our country's counter parts. They do a better job providing better prenatal and preventative pediatric care. In addition, they don't spend a majority of their health care dollars ( like our medicare) on the last year of a elderly's life. They are more practical about pulling back and letting people just die with dignity when the time has come.( of course they don't get their asses sued like we do either).

We do do a better job saving people from the "jaws of death" with high tech and new gadgets.

If you have a heart attack you have a better survival rate in the US compared to Canada but if you are a diabetic, you will have more long terms complications than your equivalent counterpart in Canada.

We will never have real socialized medicine for the following reasons:

1) You can't sue a doctor and make millions off of it anymore, which I find puzzeling that Edwards advocates such a program cause he would never be the man he is if if was a medical malpractice lawyer at these other countries.
And don't expect your doctor to pay six figure malpractive premiums on a government salary.

2)Americans expect the best and newest advancements in the treatment of their care and diseases and they won't get it. ( ie: No more breast $1,000 MRIs for those with breast implants, just keep getting $200 dollar flat plate mammograms and suck it up if the implants get destroyed. )

If Americans feel that a government-run health care system means all of our fellow citizens will be treated equally--regardless of their class, station in life, or disease condition then you are delusional. Britain has a very healthy private health sector going since those who can afford it will get it and leave the government run health care to the less advantaged. At Dartmouth I saw many canadians come here for their health care, but by the same token I am now seeing our corporations send our employees to other countries to get open heart surgeries in India for the same quality for half the price.


At the same time , for our medical community to stick our heads in the sand and say our system is fine where it is and we can't learn anything from these other health care systems, we are just as delusional.

 

[aquapub]

Well you just keep believeing that and if you live in some place like Iowa and never plan to go anywhere else you've knitted yourself the perfect security blanket.

Don't get pissy just because your blind enslavement to experience isn't the limit under which everyone else has to operate.

 

[aquapub]

Close, but wrong. China enacted more conservative policies compared to their earlier ones. They were still socialist. Giving a State Owned Enterprise more freedoms doesn't change the fact that it is still a state owned enterprise.

So...any country can go from being stagnated in the death grip of Socialism for decades upon decades and only start to take off once they loosen restrictions and lower taxes...but unless the country moves all the way to a state of total capitalism before the improvements start taking effect, it doesn't mean the conservative policies had anything to do with it.

There sure are a lot of coincidences out there then.

This is called willful blindness. :notlook: