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[W:962]The right to intervene in someone's private life.

donhughesmusic

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Aren't most of the abortion threads posed by conservatives:
Is the normally developing ZEF alive?
Is the "It's my body , it's my choice" a good argument?
Lies of abortion supporters
Elective abortion limits
etc. simply opportunities for anti-abortion advocates to explain why they have the right to intervene and interfere in other people's most intimate and private lives?
People who do heroin, cocaine, meth, drugs like that are routinely arrested. Why can't they say "it's my body, it's my choice"?
 

donhughesmusic

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Objectively, a ZEF is not a human body.

If it were, the world’s medical community and U.S. law would define it as such.
Just because the community deems it as such does not make it true. Years ago the scientific community said the Earth was flat. Years ago the scientific community said the sun was the center of the universe.
 

minnie616

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People who do heroin, cocaine, meth, drugs like that are routinely arrested. Why can't they say "it's my body, it's my choice"?
Actually , Roe v Wade was based on right to privacy.

But I think you may be confusing body autonomy with body integrity.

Body autonomy means not allowing someone or something to use your body against your wishes.

Body integrity is doing something to your body. There are seat belt and helmet laws.

Laws against dangerous drugs etc.
 

Lursa

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People who do heroin, cocaine, meth, drugs like that are routinely arrested. Why can't they say "it's my body, it's my choice"?
They should be able to. There's a great hypocrisy between people smoking cigs, drinking alcohol, etc and recreational drugs.

We are starting to see a swing in the right direction with pot. While I dont endorse doing drugs, I do support decriminalizing their use and then only penalizing their actions while on drugs, just like with alcohol.
 

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Just because the community deems it as such does not make it true.
The human body and all of it’s functions and abilities have been studied for as long as there have been humans. Unless there is some heretofore unknown biological secret revealed that proves different (don’t count on it), science is on solid ground in their consensus determination that a fetus is not a human being.
Years ago the scientific community said the Earth was flat.
There was no “scientific community” more than 2,000 years ago when the Greeks first hypothesized that the Earth is round (of course, we know the Earth isn’t exactly round).
Years ago the scientific community said the sun was the center of the universe.
Yep, and before the Sun, many believed the Earth was the center of the Universe. As more observations were made, and technology advanced to allow a much, much deeper look into the Universe, scientists adjusted their conclusion.
 

SarahSun

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They should be able to. There's a great hypocrisy between people smoking cigs, drinking alcohol, etc and recreational drugs.

We are starting to see a swing in the right direction with pot. While I dont endorse doing drugs, I do support decriminalizing their use and then only penalizing their actions while on drugs, just like with alcohol.
I agree.
 

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Years ago the scientific community said the Earth was flat. Years ago the scientific community said the sun was the center of the universe.
We are not dealing so much with science when the law says a fetus, embryo, fertilized egg are not human beings with rights as we are with custom, culture, philosophy, religion, medical practice and practical law. To accord personhood to ZEFs would mean all of the above would suddenly become obsolete.

At the foundation of our American culture is the belief in personal privacy and the right to be free from someone invading that right. We apply that right to every aspect of life except a women's reproductive life. For some reason conservative Christians think they have a right to intervene in the private lives of women.

The issues surrounding abortion have very little to do with science.
 

donhughesmusic

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We are not dealing so much with science when the law says a fetus, embryo, fertilized egg are not human beings with rights as we are with custom, culture, philosophy, religion, medical practice and practical law. To accord personhood to ZEFs would mean all of the above would suddenly become obsolete.

At the foundation of our American culture is the belief in personal privacy and the right to be free from someone invading that right. We apply that right to every aspect of life except a women's reproductive life. For some reason conservative Christians think they have a right to intervene in the private lives of women.

The issues surrounding abortion have very little to do with science.
The thing is it takes more than just a woman to make a baby. I am pro life. I think the couple (not just the woman, not just the man, the couple) should make that decision, because it takes two to tango). Now, if it just took a woman to make a baby, then yeah, I would concede that the woman should 100% make that decision. However, both parties know what may happen if you have sex. If I decide to run red lights all the time, I may kill somebody. If I decide to do heroin, I may kill myself. If a couple decides to have sex, they may end up getting the woman pregnant.

I know all the pro choice people are going to say "the fetus is not a baby" and "the man has no say". If that is the case, then it needs to be fair. If the man has no say, he should not pay child support if the couple splits. Same with a woman. If she did not want the baby and the man did, then the woman should not pay child support. That is fairness. I am all for a woman doing what they want with their body, however aborting a fetus is affecting now more than just her body.

Now, I am not saying I would ever put any woman down for having an abortion. That is not my business whether they have had one or not. Where I have an issue is if the woman has an abortion without even telling the father. The father had just as much a part in making the baby as the mother.
 

weaver2

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The thing is it takes more than just a woman to make a baby. I am pro life. I think the couple (not just the woman, not just the man, the couple) should make that decision, because it takes two to tango). Now, if it just took a woman to make a baby, then yeah, I would concede that the woman should 100% make that decision. However, both parties know what may happen if you have sex. If I decide to run red lights all the time, I may kill somebody. If I decide to do heroin, I may kill myself. If a couple decides to have sex, they may end up getting the woman pregnant.

I know all the pro choice people are going to say "the fetus is not a baby" and "the man has no say". If that is the case, then it needs to be fair. If the man has no say, he should not pay child support if the couple splits. Same with a woman. If she did not want the baby and the man did, then the woman should not pay child support. That is fairness. I am all for a woman doing what they want with their body, however aborting a fetus is affecting now more than just her body.

Now, I am not saying I would ever put any woman down for having an abortion. That is not my business whether they have had one or not. Where I have an issue is if the woman has an abortion without even telling the father. The father had just as much a part in making the baby as the mother.
Most people are decent and act civilly. And 95% of all couples that started a pregnancy discuss the future, come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion that they think is best for everyone concerned, including the potential child. When a woman gets an abortion without discussing it with the father it is usually because the father pretty aggressively acted in ways indicating that continuing the pregnancy would be deleterious to the child, the mother or the family.

Someone needs to explain why we have to be fair to people that care nothing about fairness to anyone other than themselves.
 

donhughesmusic

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Most people are decent and act civilly. And 95% of all couples that started a pregnancy discuss the future, come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion that they think is best for everyone concerned, including the potential child. When a woman gets an abortion without discussing it with the father it is usually because the father pretty aggressively acted in ways indicating that continuing the pregnancy would be deleterious to the child, the mother or the family.

Someone needs to explain why we have to be fair to people that care nothing about fairness to anyone other than themselves.
1. "Usually" does not mean "always". Where are your statistics that back up your "usually" claim??

2. I agree with you that most people are decent and act civilly... key word though is "most". Just because most people act civilly does not mean all. What about them? We cater to the LGBTQ community, which makes up a small portion of the population, why can't we help that segment without resorting to ending lives?
 

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The thing is it takes more than just a woman to make a baby. I am pro life. I think the couple (not just the woman, not just the man, the couple) should make that decision, because it takes two to tango). Now, if it just took a woman to make a baby, then yeah, I would concede that the woman should 100% make that decision. However, both parties know what may happen if you have sex. If I decide to run red lights all the time, I may kill somebody. If I decide to do heroin, I may kill myself. If a couple decides to have sex, they may end up getting the woman pregnant.

I know all the pro choice people are going to say "the fetus is not a baby" and "the man has no say". If that is the case, then it needs to be fair. If the man has no say, he should not pay child support if the couple splits. Same with a woman. If she did not want the baby and the man did, then the woman should not pay child support. That is fairness. I am all for a woman doing what they want with their body, however aborting a fetus is affecting now more than just her body.

Now, I am not saying I would ever put any woman down for having an abortion. That is not my business whether they have had one or not. Where I have an issue is if the woman has an abortion without even telling the father. The father had just as much a part in making the baby as the mother.
It's the woman who does all the work in "making a baby". The man's contribution is a few seconds of intense pleasure.

In a steady, loving relationship, chances are the woman will involve her partner. She is under no such obligation in a casual relationship or a one night stand, esp. if the man didn't stick around after getting his rocks off.

And what if he WANTS her to abort?
 

donhughesmusic

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It's the woman who does all the work in "making a baby". The man's contribution is a few seconds of intense pleasure.

In a steady, loving relationship, chances are the woman will involve her partner. She is under no such obligation in a casual relationship or a one night stand, esp. if the man didn't stick around after getting his rocks off.

And what if he WANTS her to abort?
If he wants her to abort, or is not in the picture that is an entirely different story. While I would not agree with an abortion, I would not begrudge the mother of that decision. Where I have a problem is saying the father has no say whatsoever. As long as the father is in the picture and wants to have the baby, he has just as much say as the mother. Relationships are not 50%-50%, they are 100%-100%, just like parenthood. If society says that the father does not have as much say, then society should not judge the father for not sticking around, because his say apparently doesn't mean anything.
 

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The thing is it takes more than just a woman to make a baby. I am pro life. I think the couple (not just the woman, not just the man, the couple) should make that decision, because it takes two to tango). Now, if it just took a woman to make a baby, then yeah, I would concede that the woman should 100% make that decision. However, both parties know what may happen if you have sex. If I decide to run red lights all the time, I may kill somebody. If I decide to do heroin, I may kill myself. If a couple decides to have sex, they may end up getting the woman pregnant.

I know all the pro choice people are going to say "the fetus is not a baby" and "the man has no say". If that is the case, then it needs to be fair. If the man has no say, he should not pay child support if the couple splits. Same with a woman. If she did not want the baby and the man did, then the woman should not pay child support. That is fairness. I am all for a woman doing what they want with their body, however aborting a fetus is affecting now more than just her body.

Now, I am not saying I would ever put any woman down for having an abortion. That is not my business whether they have had one or not. Where I have an issue is if the woman has an abortion without even telling the father. The father had just as much a part in making the baby as the mother.
So we'd be back to the 'old days' when a man could demand what a woman did with her body?

If the man refused to go along with the abortion, she'd be forced to remain pregnant against her will? Yes or no? Risking her health, her life? What happens if she loses her job due to sickness, or severe health repercussions? There's no law that would hold him financially accountable for her losses (unless married).

There's nothing fair about it...who said life is fair? Is it fair that women are the ones that get pregnant? No. So it's biology here that makes it 'unfair,' not law or women.

Also, does the man know, here in America, that if she gets pregnant, he has 'no say' in her decision? Yes, he does. So he knows going in (no pun intended) that it's up to her. If he still chooses to have sex, then he accepts that risk.
 

Aunt Antifa

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People who do heroin, cocaine, meth, drugs like that are routinely arrested. Why can't they say "it's my body, it's my choice"?

Because they’re using illegal substances. If they want to drink themselves to death - free and clear.
 

Aunt Antifa

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If he wants her to abort, or is not in the picture that is an entirely different story. While I would not agree with an abortion, I would not begrudge the mother of that decision. Where I have a problem is saying the father has no say whatsoever. As long as the father is in the picture and wants to have the baby, he has just as much say as the mother. Relationships are not 50%-50%, they are 100%-100%, just like parenthood. If society says that the father does not have as much say, then society should not judge the father for not sticking around, because his say apparently doesn't mean anything.

No, he doesn’t. If you don’t like that, take it up with science or your god, whomever you need to blame for not allowing you to carry children. Unless and until you can do that, you have no say. None. Nada. Zip.
 

donhughesmusic

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So we'd be back to the 'old days' when a man could demand what a woman did with her body?

If the man refused to go along with the abortion, she'd be forced to remain pregnant against her will? Yes or no? Risking her health, her life? What happens if she loses her job due to sickness, or severe health repercussions? There's no law that would hold him financially accountable for her losses (unless married).

There's nothing fair about it...who said life is fair? Is it fair that women are the ones that get pregnant? No. So it's biology here that makes it 'unfair,' not law or women.

Also, does the man know, here in America, that if she gets pregnant, he has 'no say' in her decision? Yes, he does. So he knows going in (no pun intended) that it's up to her. If he still chooses to have sex, then he accepts that risk.
I never said demand. I said the couple has to come up with a consensus. Both sides have a say. In the "old days" the man was working while the mother stayed home, and we evolved from that. Why can't we evolve from ending lives?

As far as life being unfair, I am reminded if what my 8th grade teacher told me once... "Life is not fair, but you have to be". If we want less fathers to run away from their responsibilities, then maybe... just maybe... we should give them equal say. If people want equality, then put their money where their mouths are.
 

donhughesmusic

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No, he doesn’t. If you don’t like that, take it up with science or your god, whomever you need to blame for not allowing you to carry children. Unless and until you can do that, you have no say. None. Nada. Zip.
Ok then, if the man has no say, then he should have no financial responsibility whatsoever. No child support, nothing. If he had no say, that means he has no responsibility either.
 

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I never said demand. I said the couple has to come up with a consensus. Both sides have a say. In the "old days" the man was working while the mother stayed home, and we evolved from that. Why can't we evolve from ending lives?
I was pretty clear...what if they dont come to a consensus?

Who gets 'the tiebreaker?'
As far as life being unfair, I am reminded if what my 8th grade teacher told me once... "Life is not fair, but you have to be". If we want less fathers to run away from their responsibilities, then maybe... just maybe... we should give them equal say. If people want equality, then put their money where their mouths are.
See above. And you avoided the questions I asked about 'accountability' and deciding to risk it anyway. Why?
 

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Ok then, if the man has no say, then he should have no financial responsibility whatsoever. No child support, nothing. If he had no say, that means he has no responsibility either.
Yeah, you avoided answering this in my post: Also, does the man know, here in America, that if she gets pregnant, he has 'no say' in her decision? Yes, he does. So he knows going in (no pun intended) that it's up to her. If he still chooses to have sex, then he accepts that risk.

If he was gambling in Vegas, would they let him off the hook? No of course not. He knows the risks before he decides, then he decides for himself to take the risk or not. So why shouldnt he be held accountable?
 

donhughesmusic

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Yeah, you avoided answering this in my post: Also, does the man know, here in America, that if she gets pregnant, he has 'no say' in her decision? Yes, he does. So he knows going in (no pun intended) that it's up to her. If he still chooses to have sex, then he accepts that risk.

If he was gambling in Vegas, would they let him off the hook? No of course not. He knows the risks before he decides, then he decides for himself to take the risk or not. So why shouldnt he be held accountable?
In your Vegas scenario, abortion is letting the couple off of the hook. You know the risk gambling, so you could lose money. You know the risk when you have sex, you could get pregnant.

As far as who comes to a consensus, guess what, whether the couple wants to or not, they have to. That is my position. We don't want to decide sometimes whether to pull the plug on a parent who is suffering in a hospital, but sometimes you have to. My wife and I had to make that decision on her mother. We were in disagreement, but guess what? We decided Same thing applies on whether to keep a baby or not. That is called responsibility Bush I'm sure did not want to deal with 9/11, but guess what? He had to.
 

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In your Vegas scenario, abortion is letting the couple off of the hook. You know the risk gambling, so you could lose money. You know the risk when you have sex, you could get pregnant.
??? How does the woman get let off the hook? If the woman gets pregnant, she cannot escape consequences.

There are only 4 outcomes for a woman:
--she has a baby
--she has a miscarriage
--she has an abortion
--she dies during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or end up with severe health damage from the 1st three too, but that's less likely.

So then why shouldnt the man be held accountable for HIS decision to have sex, since he knew HIS risks. And btw, men do ESCAPE consequences in plenty of cases. A pregnant women NEVER does. Just because it's not the 'consequence' other people want, doesnt minimize the consequences for her.

(Obviously I've seen this argument before, I have all this saved in OneNote)
As far as who comes to a consensus, guess what, whether the couple wants to or not, they have to. That is my position.
Nope, you are just refusing to commit to an answer. All the woman has to do is keep holding her position and eventually, it's too late. There would need to be a decision...but it appears you wont stand by the implications of your 'solution.'

Who is the tiebreaker?

We don't want to decide sometimes whether to pull the plug on a parent who is suffering in a hospital, but sometimes you have to. My wife and I had to make that decision on her mother. We were in disagreement, but guess what? We decided Same thing applies on whether to keep a baby or not. That is called responsibility Bush I'm sure did not want to deal with 9/11, but guess what? He had to.
Nice story. Didnt answer the question.
 

donhughesmusic

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??? How does the woman get let off the hook? If the woman gets pregnant, she cannot escape consequences.

There are only 4 outcomes for a woman:
--she has a baby
--she has a miscarriage
--she has an abortion
--she dies during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or end up with severe health damage from the 1st three too, but that's less likely.

So then why shouldnt the man be held accountable for HIS decision to have sex, since he knew HIS risks. And btw, men do ESCAPE consequences in plenty of cases. A pregnant women NEVER does. Just because it's not the 'consequence' other people want, doesnt minimize the consequences for her.

(Obviously I've seen this argument before, I have all this saved in OneNote)

Nope, you are just refusing to commit to an answer. All the woman has to do is keep holding her position and eventually, it's too late. There would need to be a decision...but it appears you wont stand by the implications of your 'solution.'

Who is the tiebreaker?


Nice story. Didnt answer the question.
I did answer your question, just not to your specifications. I am fully committed to my answer. This is not a game.

You also neglected to mention a 5th option for the woman. She has the baby and gives it up for adoption. Hell, you can drop a baby off at any firehouse in the country it seems like.
 

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Ok then, if the man has no say, then he should have no financial responsibility whatsoever. No child support, nothing. If he had no say, that means he has no responsibility either.

Sorry, again, biology don’t work like that. The man chose to put his peen in the ‘gina and spew seed. If he didn’t mean to make babies then I guess it’s just a stupid tax for thinking with the littlest head on ya.

Life isn’t fair.
 

donhughesmusic

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Sorry, again, biology don’t work like that. The man chose to put his peen in the ‘gina and spew seed. If he didn’t mean to make babies then I guess it’s just a stupid tax for thinking with the littlest head on ya.

Life isn’t fair.
The woman chose to let the man put his penis into her. It works both ways. If she didn't mean to make babies then I guess it's just a stupid tax for thinking with whatever she was thinking with.

You're right. Life isn't fair. But as I mentioned before, to quote an old teacher of mine... "Life isn't fair, but you have to be".
 

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The woman chose to let the man put his penis into her. It works both ways.

Right, and since it’s her body and she’s the one who gets preggers, he should totally think twice about the penis plunging.

If you decide against wearing a condom, lots of baaaaad things can happen. Unintended consequences and all that.
 
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