• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:88] Why was Mary confused?

How does that relate to your OP ?
Because angels announce purely natural births. Given that Mary was betrothed, the only reason she would wonder about how she was to give birth is if she planned on remaining a virgin.
 
Yeah, his followers aren't all relatives.
And his brothers aren't all spiritual...here's another, distinguishing his fleshly brothers from his spiritual...

"So his brothers+ said to him: “Leave here and go into Judea, so that your disciples may also see the works you are doing."
 
An angel came to a young betrothed woman and told her she would bear a son. She then asked how this would happen.

But this question makes no sense. She knows how babies are made. There is only one explanation: she was intending to remain a virgin. Otherwise, it's obvious how she would get pregnant.

It's all a myth. No virgin birth. If there was a Mary, she was obviously pregnant from someone else prior to marrying Joseph, if there was a Joseph. The words were clearly put in her mouth by the myth-makers who wanted to claim a "virgin birth" of the "Son of God". This is not theology, this is a story from the Book of Myths, also called the Bible.
 
And his brothers aren't all spiritual...here's another, distinguishing his fleshly brothers from his spiritual...

"So his brothers+ said to him: “Leave here and go into Judea, so that your disciples may also see the works you are doing."
Brothers refers to more distant relatives as well, like Abraham and Lot. Don't play dumb.
 
Because angels announce purely natural births
One example indicates that? Sorry, need a better Bibilcal source than that. What other kinds had their been up to that point?

.
Given that Mary was betrothed, the only reason she would wonder about how she was to give birth is if she planned on remaining a virgin.
Why does it matter that she was betrothed at all? And why wouldnt she wonder about the method of impregnation?
 
Brothers refers to more distant relatives as well, like Abraham and Lot. Don't play dumb.
You are the one playing dumb here...verse 5 of John 7...

"His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.+}
 
One example indicates that? Sorry, need a better Bibilcal source than that. What other kinds had their been up to that point?

Abraham and Isaac is a famous example that all Jews knew about.

Also Samson.

Why does it matter that she was betrothed at all? And why wouldnt she wonder about the method of impregnation?
No. She would just assume that she would get pregnant by having sex with Joseph
 
You are the one playing dumb here...verse 5 of John 7...

"His brothers were, in fact, not exercising faith in him.+}
His RELATIVES. The Bible wasn't written in English, you know.
 
Abraham and Isaac is a famous example that all Jews knew about.
So what other types of births besides 'natural' had there been up to that point?

Why would it have been questioned????

No. She would just assume that she would get pregnant by having sex with Joseph
And we're back to my original post...that it's not about getting pregnant it's about communicating God's plan. That would have to be communicated before OR after marriage. In either case the holy son being inside her would still need to be communicated.

So again, please explain your point. God could put His Son inside Mary at any time. He could do so as soon as they took marriage vows. He could do it before they consummated the marriage. He could remove any current resident in there and replace it OR place the soul of His Son in that unborn. What is the relevance of her 'virginity' that you keep mentioning?
 
So what other types of births besides 'natural' had there been up to that point?

Why would it have been questioned????

There hadn't been. All of the announced births were natural births. The only reason Mary would have asked is because she intended to not have sex.

And we're back to my original post...that it's not about getting pregnant it's about communicating God's plan. That would have to be communicated before OR after marriage. In either case the holy son being inside her would still need to be communicated.

So again, please explain your point.
No. Look at the differences in the questions. Zechariah asks "how will I know this." He doubted and was punished. Mary asks "how will this be, since I know not man." She wasn't punished because she didn't doubt. Her question was a reasonable one. How can a virgin who intends on remaining a virgin get pregnant? The angel then explains that it will be a virgin birth.

Again, if she is planning on having sex, her question makes no sense.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210227-155406_Brave.jpg
    Screenshot_20210227-155406_Brave.jpg
    68.8 KB · Views: 0
There hadn't been. All of the announced births were natural births. The only reason Mary would have asked is because she intended to not have sex.
Then that wasnt a valid argument. You just demonstrated that.

Again, God's plan had to be communicated to her anyway...so the angel came to her. If she was pregnant before the marriage, of course she'd need to understand and even explain it to others.

No. Look at the differences in the questions. Zechariah asks "how will I know this." He doubted and was punished.
He doubted God. Mary was being informed, prepared. Big difference.

Mary asks "how will this be, since I know not man." She wasn't punished because she didn't doubt. Her question was a reasonable one.
Exactly.

How can a virgin who intends on remaining a virgin get pregnant? The angel then explains that it will be a virgin birth.
She asked 'how.' Why wouldnt she? Virgin or married, it's 'magic' basically.

Again, if she is planning on having sex, her question makes no sense.
If the angel told her it would be a virgin birth she'd have no idea how that would 'happen' so it makes sense ANYONE would ask. Even a man. But since the angel was telling her that, obviously it was going to be before they did consummate the marriage.

It just doesnt seem like rocket science.
 
Then that wasnt a valid argument. You just demonstrated that.

Again, God's plan had to be communicated to her anyway...so

He doubted God. Mary was being informed, prepared. Big difference.


Exactly.

She asked 'how.' Why wouldnt she? Virgin or married, it's 'magic' basically.

If the angel told her it would be a virgin birth she'd have no idea how that would 'happen' so it makes sense ANYONE would ask. Even a man. But since the angel was telling her that, obviously it was going to be before they did consummate the marriage.

It just doesnt seem like rocket science.
Can you read the chapter? The angel never said virgin birth.
 
Can you read the chapter? The angel never said virgin birth.
I read what you posted...she's asking 'how,' period. I think my posts have supported that and why.

Or post the passage please.
 
I've got a dumb question. What's with all the focus on whether Mary or anyone else intended to have sex or not? I understand the significance of the miracle of the virgin birth but fail to see how any other intentions Mary may have had help fill out the story. She was betrothed to Joseph and certainly would have consummated the marriage if it had happened but I simply don't see how that has any bearing on anything else.
 
I've got a dumb question. What's with all the focus on whether Mary or anyone else intended to have sex or not? I understand the significance of the miracle of the virgin birth but fail to see how any other intentions Mary may have had help fill out the story. She was betrothed to Joseph and certainly would have consummated the marriage if it had happened but I simply don't see how that has any bearing on anything else.
True and she did, after Jesus' birth...

"But he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son,+ and he named him Jesus.+" Matthew 1:25
 
I read what you posted...she's asking 'how,' period. I think my posts have supported that and why.

Or post the passage please.
Are you asserting that she didn't know how babies are made?
 
Are you asserting that she didn't know how babies are made?
No, I'm saying she's asking how she'd be get pregnant. It could involve when, who (is someone knocking at her door?), is it magic, is it somehow thru Joseph, is a fully formed fetus being teleported into her uterus, etc? There are a million questions anyone would have when approached by an angel.

Please include the passage you mentioned.
 
I've got a dumb question. What's with all the focus on whether Mary or anyone else intended to have sex or not? I understand the significance of the miracle of the virgin birth but fail to see how any other intentions Mary may have had help fill out the story. She was betrothed to Joseph and certainly would have consummated the marriage if it had happened but I simply don't see how that has any bearing on anything else.
They were married but she remained a virgin. It's a part of why she's regarded so highly by those who trace their tradition back to the time of Christ. In fact the oldest hymn that we know of was written in praise of Mary!

 
Last edited:
No, I'm saying she's asking how she'd be get pregnant. It could involve when, who (is someone knocking at her door?), is it magic, is it somehow thru Joseph, is a fully formed fetus being teleported into her uterus, etc? There are a million questions anyone would have when approached by an angel.

Please include the passage you mentioned.
She asked how, and said this is because she "knows not man" (a euphemism for her virginity). She's asking how she's going to get pregnant because virgins don't get pregnant. So if she were planning on having sex, the question is ridiculous. She would have gotten pregnant the same way everyone else gets pregnant.

Luke 1:34
 
Many Catholics Are in Doubt

Catholic reference works reveal that Catholic scholars have had doubts that Mary remained a virgin all her life. The Bible itself several times mentions Jesus’ “brothers” and “sisters.” (Matthew 12:46, 47; 13:55, 56; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19, 20; John 2:12; 7:3, 5) Some Catholics, however, claim that these words designate “relatives,” such as cousins. Is this true?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The Greek words . . . that are used to designate the relationship between Jesus and these relatives have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.” Also, The New American Bible, a Catholic translation, admits in a footnote on Mark 6:1-6, where Jesus’ brothers and sisters are mentioned: “The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity.”

The Bible clearly shows that Mary had other children besides Jesus; the Catholic Church’s teaching that she did not is what has created a controversy. Catholic author J. Gilles, who thoroughly examined all the Scriptural evidence on the subject, concluded: “Briefly and in measured language, out of faithfulness to the [Catholic] Church, I believe I can sum up my investigation as follows. . . . The FOUR CANONICAL GOSPELS provide concordant evidence . . . that Jesus had real brothers and sisters in his family. . . . In the face of this coherent block of proof the traditional position [of the Catholic Church] seems vulnerable and fragile.”


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101985803?q=perpetual+virginity+of+Mary&p=sen
 
Many Catholics Are in Doubt

Catholic reference works reveal that Catholic scholars have had doubts that Mary remained a virgin all her life. The Bible itself several times mentions Jesus’ “brothers” and “sisters.” (Matthew 12:46, 47; 13:55, 56; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19, 20; John 2:12; 7:3, 5) Some Catholics, however, claim that these words designate “relatives,” such as cousins. Is this true?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The Greek words . . . that are used to designate the relationship between Jesus and these relatives have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world of the Evangelist’s time and would naturally be taken by his Greek reader in this sense.” Also, The New American Bible, a Catholic translation, admits in a footnote on Mark 6:1-6, where Jesus’ brothers and sisters are mentioned: “The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity.”

The Bible clearly shows that Mary had other children besides Jesus; the Catholic Church’s teaching that she did not is what has created a controversy. Catholic author J. Gilles, who thoroughly examined all the Scriptural evidence on the subject, concluded: “Briefly and in measured language, out of faithfulness to the [Catholic] Church, I believe I can sum up my investigation as follows. . . . The FOUR CANONICAL GOSPELS provide concordant evidence . . . that Jesus had real brothers and sisters in his family. . . . In the face of this coherent block of proof the traditional position [of the Catholic Church] seems vulnerable and fragile.”


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101985803?q=perpetual+virginity+of+Mary&p=sen
What a bogus citation of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here's what it actually says:
"The perpetual virginity of our Blessed Lady was taught and proposed to our belief not merely by the councils and creeds, but also by the early Fathers."
 
She asked how, and said this is because she "knows not man" (a euphemism for her virginity). She's asking how she's going to get pregnant because virgins don't get pregnant. So if she were planning on having sex, the question is ridiculous. She would have gotten pregnant the same way everyone else gets pregnant.

Luke 1:34
It's not ridiculous He came to her before she was married. She didnt know 'when.' And if it was via God or some Holy plan, why wouldnt she question it.

And please explain why the issue here is about your presumptions about her concerns...or who's concerns...about her virginity?

IMO you're still off-base because she DID get pregnant AFTER she married but before consummation. Why didnt they consummate the marriage that night?


26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.


So she asked, the angel answered her (in 35), and she said, cool, ok (in 38).

So it seems normal she asked and altho the answer was supernormal, she accepted it. Now please explain: about your presumptions about her concerns...or who's concerns...about her virginity? She seems to have accepted the angel's answer.
 
It's not ridiculous He came to her before she was married. She didnt know 'when.' And if it was via God or some Holy plan, why wouldnt she question it.

And please explain why the issue here is about your presumptions about her concerns...or who's concerns...about her virginity?

IMO you're still off-base because she DID get pregnant AFTER she married but before consummation. Why didnt they consummate the marriage that night?


26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.


So she asked, the angel answered her (in 35), and she said, cool, ok (in 38).

So it seems normal she asked and altho the answer was supernormal, she accepted it. Now please explain: about your presumptions about her concerns...or who's concerns...about her virginity? She seems to have accepted the angel's answer.
She was betrothed. It's like engagement. She was soon to be married.

Abraham had to wait about 40 years until Isaac was born. Even he didn't have to ask how Sarah would get pregnant.
 
Back
Top Bottom