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[w:88]What Happened to American Conservatism?

Now, I have to say one thing.

I voted for Donald Trump twice, which flys in the face of what I just stated. I don't excuse my vote (and won't....I'd do it again). But I have no issue saying I don't like the guy and I felt like he really let me down in the end. I knew I was getting a bloviator and hoped he might do better.

But, in the final analysis, the names Gorsuch/Kavennaugh/Barrett all justify my vote for me and I am quite please to say that to anyone who asks.
I wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your candidness here. I actually didn't vote for Trump the first time (and absolutely didn't vote for Hillary either) but voted for him the second time. On a personal level I couldn't stand him and it took me a while to understand why there was this group he really appealed to. In the end I felt his policies were okay. Many people have a misguided view of what a president can do and actually believe that by electing such and such person can bring some sort of utopia for us all.
 
Probably the last true conservatives, at least as far as US Presidents go, would be Truman and Eisenhower.
The conservatives of today are a far cry from that, and not in a good way.
 
Probably the last true conservatives, at least as far as US Presidents go, would be Truman and Eisenhower.
The conservatives of today are a far cry from that, and not in a good way.

While I have a lot of respect for Harry Truman, I am not sure I have ever heard him referred to as a conservative.

Can you elaborate ?
 
In brief, it failed; so, its base became reactionary.

Completely disagree.

True conservatism was abandoned and the right wing base was with it.

Hence they fought for (and not without violating a lot of basic conservative principles) a voice.

If you look at the line up for the 2016 GOP primary, there were only a couple of people who would have come close. And Trump was not one of them.
 
While I have a lot of respect for Harry Truman, I am not sure I have ever heard him referred to as a conservative.

Can you elaborate ?
While Truman was a Democrat, many of his actions were very conservative in nature. Something todays Republicans should be all for instead of the far right direction they are going.
 
In brief, it failed; so, its base became reactionary.
Completely disagree.
I'm going to have to go with reinaert on this one.

My political philosophy is a bundle of contradictions which I won't elaborate on here, but I start from a libertarian base and a conservative bent a la Brooks. Those sensibilities, however, have led me to what many consider pretty left-leaning positions on a number of hot topics.

Conservatism, to me, was never about Luddism - refusing change violently - but a "take-it-slow", "don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broke" approach. But, where reinaert is more correct is that that sentiment is fundamentally flawed. Like capitalism, it can be the correct solution 90% of the time, but when it isn't, it doesn't adapt and the consequences can be dire.

Conservatism is prone to fail in boiled-frog situations. When the situation is acute - say the invasion of Ukraine, an economic crash - the conservative approach can't adapt fast enough to solve the problem and often makes it worse. On the other hand, when the situation develops slowly - like inequality, or climate change - conservatism doesn't react at all.
 
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I'm going to have to go with reinaert on this one.

My political philosophy is a bundle of contradictions which I won't elaborate on here, but I start from a libertarian base and a conservative bent a la Brooks. Those sensibilities, however, have led me to what many consider pretty left-leaning positions on a number of hot topics.

Conservatism, to me, was never about Luddism - refusing change violently - but a "take-it-slow", "don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broke" approach. But, where reinaert is more correct is that that sentiment is fundamentally flawed. Like capitalism, it can be the correct solution 90% of the time, but when it isn't, it doesn't adapt and the consequences can be dire.

Conservatism is prone to fail in boiled-frog situations. When the situation is acute - say the invasion of Ukraine, an economic crash - the conservative approach can't adapt fast enough to solve the problem and often makes it worse. On the other hand, when the situation develops slowly - like inequality, or climate change - conservatism doesn't react at all.
To finish that thought, this is not an endorsement of unbridled progressivism, which has its own flaws, but an acknowledgement of the flaws inherent in that philosophical approach. As Brooks noted, conservatism is the right answer when the status quo is a moral system, but it fails utterly when it attempts to preserve a corrupt bargain, say for example the 3/5ths compromise.

To be a successful approach, as Brooks notes, it must be "self-aware". It has to own up to its limitations and failures. That, I think, is where modern conservatism is most prone to failure, and how reactionary elements can take over. When it can't acknowledge its warts, hubris takes over and we get the kind of "cancel culture" that prevails today. It's not "my country right or wrong", it must be "my country when it's right" and corrected when it's wrong.
 
While I have a lot of respect for Harry Truman, I am not sure I have ever heard him referred to as a conservative.
While Truman was a Democrat, many of his actions were very conservative in nature. Something todays Republicans should be all for instead of the far right direction they are going.
Truman was a conservative, though not by "today's" standard. Not recognizing that is an indication of just how far the table is tilted. He was pragmatic to a fault. He didn't go for that change for change's sake. He was fiercely anti-communist. The Truman Doctrine, called for the United States to prevent the spread of Communism through foreign aid to Greece and Turkey. He was not particularly favorable to unions. His probity was legendary.

Now, that is not to say he didn't pursue some pretty liberal policies - his "fair deal" proposals - but those were based upon core moral principles. He integrated the military because it was the right thing to do, for example. His Supreme Court appointments were certainly not "liberals".

But this is one of those situations where the "liberal" and "conservative" labels get muddled. Liberal compared to what? Conservative compared to...?
 
I'm going to have to go with reinaert on this one.

My political philosophy is a bundle of contradictions which I won't elaborate on here, but I start from a libertarian base and a conservative bent a la Brooks. Those sensibilities, however, have led me to what many consider pretty left-leaning positions on a number of hot topics.

Conservatism, to me, was never about Luddism - refusing change violently - but a "take-it-slow", "don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broke" approach. But, where reinaert is more correct is that that sentiment is fundamentally flawed. Like capitalism, it can be the correct solution 90% of the time, but when it isn't, it doesn't adapt and the consequences can be dire.

Conservatism is prone to fail in boiled-frog situations. When the situation is acute - say the invasion of Ukraine, an economic crash - the conservative approach can't adapt fast enough to solve the problem and often makes it worse. On the other hand, when the situation develops slowly - like inequality, or climate change - conservatism doesn't react at all.

I would tend to look at what we have now and ask just what failed.

Now, the assumption is that something isn't where it needs to be or didn't get us where we need to be (hence the term failure) and I would submit that we don't even agree on that.

Conservatism is about culture, which is why the people who are fostering division and anger are not conservatives in my way of thinking. They may have conservative views on things like the economy and government, but if you fail on the cultural aspect (and I would add the moral aspect......I don't believe it is a practice of good morals to call other people names, smear them, and constantly talk about what is wrong at a time where there is so much to be grateful for).

And while I understand your statement about the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" approach, I don't accept it (in total) for the following reasons.

Let me first state, that like yourself, I have always stated that I operate at different levels on the political spectrum depending on what level of government you are talking about. The further the government gets from home, the more conservative my approach to it. Hence, I am a huge "wisher" when it comes to the 10th amendment (I wished that people would actually look at what it says and that the federal government would not get involved in a lot of things it does....but for another day) when it comes to the federal government. I am much less conservative when it comes to my state government (I had hoped that more states would have tackled the idea of health care at some level....not just making it universal.....although I think we eventually get there) because we learned some good things from the states that have tried and are trying (TennCare was a good lesson for us all and when Vermont undertook the effort they learned some sobering things about the inefficiencies in our system). And at the county and muni levels I am even more willing to consider "collectivist" type discussions.

O.K. back to my point.
 
Continuing......

It is because of the perspective I have listed above that I don't believe the job of conservatives or left-wingers at the federal level is to adapt or to "fix" much at all (there are some notable exceptions, but that opens up a whole new discussion so I'll leave it at this for now). I do believe it is the job of states, counties and cities to do better job of that adapting and I think they are more suited for it. The federal government only gets involved when there is a practical imbalance in terms of power or adherence to established fundamental concepts (violation of basic rights).

Respecting Ukraine and economic crashes, I would say that there is good evidence (although you won't find the so-called "scholars" of today touting it) that government involvement in these things BEFORE they happen and after they happen only worsens the situation. I have satisfied myself of that at some level (several years ago), but want to go back and revisit it more as it has been some time since I spent much time thinking about it.

To you point of "does not react at all", I will come back to my point that this is about culture. And here is where I have been spending a lot of my time (when I have time) to think about this.

In the articles I have been reading, there is a constant alluding to the idea that these systems only work to create anything of value if people CHOSE to take high moral roads. The discussion of greed and the lack of concern on the part of people for their fellowman seems to permeate what I consider to be fairly rationale thought. That isn't something you react to. That is something you build in to your culture proactively and you monitor it constantly. You have to keep that at the forefront of your community so that people learn to trust that it exists and that their efforts in that regard are not in vain and that they are not being taken advantage of. It is amazing how greedy we are as a people. I don't know how Jeff Bezos is able to sustain that kind of income he does (economics teaches that shouldn't happen......at a theoretical level....so what's going on ?). And I have no way of knowing what you do with that kind of wealth. At the same time, there is this constant clamoring for more more more at the lower end of the spectrum.

As has been pointed out many times (by the right, of course), the material holdings of those in poverty today often exceed the material holdings of a solid middle class family in the 1950's.

So, in my estimation something is amiss.

And this is where we have no conservative leadership.

(I will continue)
 
Continuing.....

Conservatism isn't about laissez faire, or it shouldn't be. It is about actively pushing and driving culture. And that, in my estimation, is where conservatives have failed or more likely been supplanted by charlatans who use the term to drive their own, less-than-high-moral, efforts.

This was the great contradiction we called Donald Trump. On the one hand, he did nothing (from a behavioral standpoint) to support or even sustain any kind of civil culture (or honest one for that matter). While at the same time, not having him in there was to invite an almost cementing influence of government establishment (cultural supplanting) that might never be recovered from.

I seen no one out there decrying some of our most basic moral failings (that we seem to think government can fix). Right now I am back in the middle of George Will's "The Conservative Sensibility"........painful.

I see no-one out there challenging some of the things that I believe are simply not right (and again, fresh from Will's book.....I could go on, but I'd like to update myself as he has given me much to think about).

One thing I will point out because I think it challenges both sides is that no one is discussing how government big business are no longer distinguishable in my book. Government (the darling of the left) and Big business (commerce, free trade (year right), profit.....all those darlings of the left) use each other to stay in power. About five years ago, I pointed this out to a couple of friends.....one a strong conservative.....the other a moderate democrat....and they both recoiled at the idea. Government SUPPORTING big business (more like being used by big business) ????? No way. Big business using a corrupt approach to the "free market" ????? No way. Within about four weeks, they both came back to me and stated that they had thought about it, done some research, and even looked at the dealings of the company we work for.....and realized I was right.

Government and big business give the impression they are pitted against each other, but in the end, they are so far in bed together a twin mattress would suffice..

So.....I see no conservatism at work there. There is no voice in the political area (Will talks about this....but I didn't need him to point it out....I've lived it first hand....and he's not running for office) A huge miss.

And while I appreciate Bernie Sanders (for being the only one who constant brings up the things that I think need talked about.....income inequality, health care, not just climate change....but good just stewardship with regards to nature, how the wealthy horde and use their leverage to suck up most wealth that is created not because you deserve what they have but because you deserve the opportunity to compete with them.....if you even give a crap about being that wealthy which I would question.....), there is no way I would ever vote for his policies because he wants to do it all with.......wait for it.....the federal government. The very thing I've seen behave so corruptly and in contradiction to what drives good culture for so long.

And, once again, while I like Ron Paul, I don't hear him (and I must confess it's been a while since I've read his stuff) talking about these free markets in terms of allowing good things to happen within our culture.

Again.....that is what I think we are missing.

And I don't think conservatism fails.

Conservatives have.
 
To finish that thought, this is not an endorsement of unbridled progressivism, which has its own flaws, but an acknowledgement of the flaws inherent in that philosophical approach. As Brooks noted, conservatism is the right answer when the status quo is a moral system, but it fails utterly when it attempts to preserve a corrupt bargain, say for example the 3/5ths compromise.

To be a successful approach, as Brooks notes, it must be "self-aware". It has to own up to its limitations and failures. That, I think, is where modern conservatism is most prone to failure, and how reactionary elements can take over. When it can't acknowledge its warts, hubris takes over and we get the kind of "cancel culture" that prevails today. It's not "my country right or wrong", it must be "my country when it's right" and corrected when it's wrong.

Sorry for the long rant above.

The short answer here (to me) to your point is that we've made the stakes of losing to high.

By concentrating everything at the federal level, the money and power have become so great that losing is not an option.

Hence the proliferation of lobbyists.

It is much easier to be self-aware when you feel you can afford to be wrong. When things get to big.....and your decisions can't easily be reversed.......well, I look at the Boeing 737 Max issue (and I am primarily informed by someone in the industry, not my own reading so if I am only getting one side of the story....I need to be corrected).....and Boeing's efforts to "cover up" a mistake that is going to cost untold millions (and has cost lives....how do you put a figure on that).....but their cover up may cost them much much more.

Again, here is where I think conservatives have failed. If you drive a speedboat, you cant turn on a dime. If you drive an aircraft carrier, turning is a longer process. The federal government....and by extension, big business, is not a speedboat.

I know of two adult children (one of them is mine) who have pretty much rejected much of what they see in society today. They live modestly and frugally. They pursue what is important to them and they seem well-grounded in their thinking. They both have their personal challenges (who doesn't), but they simply won't get on the hamster wheel of today's (run till your done, shop till you drop) society (and I hesitate to even call it a society anymore).
 
I would tend to look at what we have now and ask just what failed.
Always a good place to start!
Now, the assumption is that something isn't where it needs to be or didn't get us where we need to be (hence the term failure) and I would submit that we don't even agree on that.
There's a good point to be made with that. Virtually every bit of legislation has to be adjusted to some degree as passed. Sometimes it is the compromises that were needed to secure passage that are what fails. Faults are not complete failures, but are often described as such. The Constitution is a great example. It certainly has faults, but, on the whole, has served us pretty well for 200plus years.
Conservatism is about culture, which is why the people who are fostering division and anger are not conservatives in my way of thinking. They may have conservative views on things like the economy and government, but if you fail on the cultural aspect (and I would add the moral aspect......I don't believe it is a practice of good morals to call other people names, smear them, and constantly talk about what is wrong at a time where there is so much to be grateful for).

And while I understand your statement about the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" approach, I don't accept it (in total) for the following reasons.

Let me first state, that like yourself, I have always stated that I operate at different levels on the political spectrum depending on what level of government you are talking about. The further the government gets from home, the more conservative my approach to it. Hence, I am a huge "wisher" when it comes to the 10th amendment (I wished that people would actually look at what it says and that the federal government would not get involved in a lot of things it does....but for another day) when it comes to the federal government. I am much less conservative when it comes to my state government (I had hoped that more states would have tackled the idea of health care at some level....not just making it universal.....although I think we eventually get there) because we learned some good things from the states that have tried and are trying (TennCare was a good lesson for us all and when Vermont undertook the effort they learned some sobering things about the inefficiencies in our system). And at the county and muni levels I am even more willing to consider "collectivist" type discussions.

O.K. back to my point.
 
Sorry for the long rant above.
There is much to unpack, my friend, but some real kernels of agreement (and disagreement) to be discussed. But, one particular point that I'd like to start with, and is near the end
The short answer here (to me) to your point is that we've made the stakes of losing to high.

By concentrating everything at the federal level, the money and power have become so great that losing is not an option.
Here, I think you are correct in the first instance, but off the mark - not entirely wrong, but a glancing blow - with the second. You attribute the "ill" to concentration, but have mistaken the cart for the horse. I think your earlier premise about corporate/government cohabitation is also correct, but the sequencing may be wrong. But I'll elaborate, because that was about as clear as mud.

Corruption occurs at all levels of government, so the premise that it is from "concentration", I think, is fundamentally incorrect. Corruption occurs as often, and probably more readily, at the local level precisely because fewer people pay attention. Because the stakes seem to be low - school board, mayor, dog catcher - ne'er-do-wells can take over a niche and manipulate "the system" more readily to their advantage. I've watched it in action at the local level. We're seeing some of the fruits of that now on a national level, percolating up, only because of media attention, but it has been going on since the inception of community.

I once worked as an intern for the Lieutenant Governor's office. I loved my job as an ombudsman because I got to help people with real problems work through the system to get answers. I learned a lot about the structure of government in the process, what works, and what doesn't. At the same time, my boss (not the Lt.G) was working the system on behalf of the political process. He created a database from our work to be used in the re-election process - identifying constituents we helped officially and sending them letters touting the Lieutenant Governor's (read party's) assistance in resolving their matter. That was just one political appointee, but the point is that it can, and does, occur anywhere. It is not that there is concentration at the federal level, it's that there are commensurately more "operatives" within the process. (That's why every federal agency has its own Inspector General, a process that frankly doesn't exist in many lower level agencies - see my second paragraph.) The federal government is comparatively less corrupt than State, and even local, agencies because of the prevalence of the administrative (deep) state, and oversight, frankly.

Now, it is true that federal agencies are target rich environments for manipulators. In that sense your "concentration" argument is valid. But it's not because the stakes are higher, in my view, it's that the opportunities for abuse are richer. Many of the circumstances that are portrayed as high stakes are not, but, unfortunately, because crying wolf is so prevalent, the actually dire conditions are drowned out by the noise. At the risk of taking the thread off-topic I'll give the for-instance of CRT vs climate change as an example. Climate change is real, it is significant, and it is urgent - high stakes, indeed - whereas CRT is a phantom, a byproduct of the much larger problem, and insignificant to the health of the nation, yet which is getting more attention?
 
I apologize for taking your posts out of order, and in chunks, but I'm trying to respond as I have time to particular points, so I'm forced to leave a lot out.
Continuing......

It is because of the perspective I have listed above that I don't believe the job of conservatives or left-wingers at the federal level is to adapt or to "fix" much at all (there are some notable exceptions, but that opens up a whole new discussion so I'll leave it at this for now).
Here we fundamentally disagree. It is the responsibility of all of our representatives at every level to adapt and fix problems that fall within their bailiwick. Where I think you and I most disagree, historically, is the parameters of those responsibilities. I have a much broader view of what are federal responsibilities. I'll respond in more depth next.
I do believe it is the job of states, counties and cities to do better job of that adapting and I think they are more suited for it. The federal government only gets involved when there is a practical imbalance in terms of power or adherence to established fundamental concepts (violation of basic rights).
As noted previously, while I agree that it is incumbent upon States and their subdivisions "to do a better job of that adapting" I do not believe "they are more suited for it." Indeed, more often than not they are much less suited for it, and often incapable of addressing the issues entirely or effectively. That's not to say the federal government is particularly adept, but many issues may only be addressed effectively at the highest level.

It's also more often the case that citizens have to turn to the federal government (often the courts) to protect their basic rights from State deprivation than to turn to the States for that protection. As the founders correctly surmised, State and local governments are more subject to demagoguery and parochial interests than the federal government as a whole. Thus, abhorrent conditions such as slavery, inequitable application of laws and suppression of minority interests are much more pernicious at the State level. Jim Crow laws persisted for a century and required repeated federal intervention to overcome. (Indeed, several of those reprehensible efforts still obtain in a number of States.)

I am decidedly not, and never have been, a "small government" conservative, nor do I think that has ever been a "conservative value". "Government", at whatever level, has to be robust enough to meet the responsibility of governing. Sometimes that requires a big program, and sometimes that means it has to be taken on at the federal level to be effective, and to obtain equitable application between States.

Perhaps a State with a large enough economy - like California, Massachusetts, or Texas - can administer a policy program, like health care, effectively, but the wherewithal is not distributed evenly among the States. Rural States, in particular, have difficulty providing for far-flung citizenry. It is far more expensive to project power or provide public transit, for example, over vast distances than in compact urban environments. Thus, rural electrification became a federal program, and the same can be true for healthcare, poverty programs, and even transportation and internet infrastructure. California can have a very effective environmental program, but Montana struggles to maintain the means to keep up with even basic health inspections.

How, then, can State or local governments be more effective in providing services to their citizens?
 
"The rich philosophical tradition I fell in love with has been reduced to Fox News and voter suppression."

He lost me right there with that idiotic statement.
 
"The rich philosophical tradition I fell in love with has been reduced to Fox News and voter suppression."

He lost me right there with that idiotic statement.
You can do better than that. Without being hyperbolic or injecting partisan vitriol, Why? Do you have a critique of his sources? I'm genuinely interested. Let's make it a conversation rather than just a dismissal.
 
No offense intended, but I think you are confusing self-interest with selfishness. It is in my self-interest to take care of the people I love. Selfishness, however, excludes other people.



National defense is a public good, which means people will get it whether they pay for it or not. Healthcare, education, housing, transportation are all private goods, and it is always better to have private goods provided by the market instead of the state. I also feel this is inaccurate:



In my opinion, the state doing something is not equal to the population of the country doing something collectively. Every government on the planet routinely does things that the population would not support if it were put to a vote.

How was the 8 trillion dollars spent on the war on Terror a public good at this point?
The essay is one idiots view of what HE believes conservatism is, has devolved into, and what is wrong with it

When he labels Trump as a conservative was the last straw for me

Trump never was, and never will be a conservative

It is another in a long line of must have everyone fit into little box

As if all of the liberals, greens, progressives, socialists, and communists were all pulling in the same direction

yeah, right

Saying Trump is not a conservative seems like a "No True Scotsman" argument. Most of the people saying they are a conservative on these boards thinks Trump is a conservative.
 
How was the 8 trillion dollars spent on the war on Terror a public good at this point?

The term "public good" doesn't mean morally good. The war on terror is gigantic waste of money, just like the war on drugs or the war on poverty, or just about everything the alphabet soup agencies do.

Saying Trump is not a conservative seems like a "No True Scotsman" argument. Most of the people saying they are a conservative on these boards thinks Trump is a conservative.

Trump is a former Democrat who at one time supported the state confiscating firearms:

 
The term "public good" doesn't mean morally good. The war on terror is gigantic waste of money, just like the war on drugs or the war on poverty, or just about everything the alphabet soup agencies do.



Trump is a former Democrat who at one time supported the state confiscating firearms:


Wasn't Michael Savage somewhat left wing at one point, does he not count? What about Dave Rubin? People change.

No True Scotsman eh? It's like saying social conservatives don't count because they support government enforcing their values on others.
 
Wasn't Michael Savage somewhat left wing at one point, does he not count? What about Dave Rubin? People change.

No True Scotsman eh? It's like saying social conservatives don't count because they support government enforcing their values on others.
Ehhhhhhhhh… Dave Rubin is too dumb to sincerely change. He acts like he is interested in discussions but hes really not.
 
Ehhhhhhhhh… Dave Rubin is too dumb to sincerely change. He acts like he is interested in discussions but hes really not.

Oh sure, Rubin is just a grifter. I just don't buy that argument that someone is not a conservative now because they voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 or something and we have to ignore everything else they have done.
 
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