[W:816] A Lesson from Atlas Shrugged

[aociswundumho]

Problem 1: It denies that man is social by trying to establish that man's accomplishments are what governs their primary worth.

No, not his "accomplishments". Rand believed productive work is man's main purpose in life, and she was probably right:

What Really Makes Men Happy – Wes Moss
A Massive New Study of 5,000 Men Says This 1 Very Surprising Thing Predicts Happiness | Inc.com

The vehicle in which it does that is the distortion of the idea of a man should keep what he earns.

A man should keep what he earns. What you believe is that a tiny group of nefarious assholes who won a popularity contest (in which most people didn't even participate), should have some sort of magical "right" to rob everybody else and imprison or kill anyone who refuses to pay up.

Problem 2: Even with your coke example, the reason capitalism works is because it promotes that interdependence

No, capitalism promotes peace through voluntary trade. Capitalism "works" because it's based on self-interest.

 

[Paradoxical]

Probably the easiest way is to link this video, its a bit dense of a topic and not easily summarized. However, it is the best theory and explainer of human activity I have ever seen and explains so much of what people do and how they behave.



However, the criticism in light of the video is that objectivism ignores many of these pillars, especially the fairness and care pillars and overemphasizes the liberty pillar. Objectivism is a trap philosophy in that regard because it feels moral because it hits certain structures in our brain that make us feel good in obeying that drive, so people fall into it. What we call morality is just evolutionarily shaped behaviors to promote survival and reproduction, there really is nothing deeper than that (from a purely material point of view at least)

For extra credit, you can see where liberals tend to get it wrong from this theory as well

Who is teaching you that life is supposed to be fair? Where do you get this notion from?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Who is teaching you that life is supposed to be fair? Where do you get this notion from?

case in point of what I was pointing out (you totally failed to understand the argument, yet again). Thank you for being an example so many times in this thread.

Here is a hint if you want your argument to be relevent within the context of the discussion, frame in in terms of psychology. Hint 2, humans are by biology driven to want fairness.

Lets see what you can do with this insight I have provided you.

 

[Slartibartfast]

No, not his "accomplishments". Rand believed productive work is man's main purpose in life, and she was probably right:


What Really Makes Men Happy – Wes Moss
A Massive New Study of 5,000 Men Says This 1 Very Surprising Thing Predicts Happiness | Inc.com

Wrong, actualization is one's purpose in life and productivity is only one aspect of that. See Maslow for further details.

A man should keep what he earns. What you believe is that a tiny group of nefarious assholes who won a popularity contest (in which most people didn't even participate), should have some sort of magical "right" to rob everybody else and imprison or kill anyone who refuses to pay up.

To a degree yes, but to a degree, man owe's society for the foundation in which their success is built on. The only way this could be different is everyone starts life without access to technology or social structures and therefore their success is only built on their personal merit.

No, capitalism promotes peace through voluntary trade. Capitalism "works" because it's based on self-interest.

Economies do that, not capitalism specifically. This is proven by the fact that trade occurred before capitalism was invented.

 

[Paradoxical]

case in point of what I was pointing out. Thank you for being an example so many times in this thread.

Here is a hint if you want your argument to be relevent within the context of the discussion, frame in in terms of psychology. Hint 2, humans are by biology driven to want fairness.

Lets see what you can do with this insight I have provided you.

That is non responsive to my post. I see no evidence that humans want fairness.They have empathy but this striving for fairness and equality in all situations is actually VERY detrimental to humanity. Are you being taught in college that life SHOULD be fair and equal?

 

[Slartibartfast]

That is non responsive to my post. I see no evidence that humans want fairness.They have empathy but this striving for fairness and equality in all situations is actually VERY detrimental to humanity. Are you being taught in college that life SHOULD be fair and equal?

The fact that you cannot see evidence of it tells me you should see a therapist.

 

[code1211]

This is part 1 but there are more parts to follow.

I have never caught hell from Republicans on the values found in Atlas Shrugged but from Democrats, I catch holy hell. They prove how they think by rejecting the lessons of Atlas Shrugged. This comes close to discussing Antitrust laws were Government decides for business what business may do.

Watch part 1.

The shrieking Democrat-Socialists run away from Atlas Shrugged like burned cats.

The lesson she offers among others in this book is that our civilization is driven forward by the work and creativity of a very few individuals.

If those individuals remove themselves from the mix, our little house of cards falls down.

The other stuff about the mob, stupidity, corruption, corruptibility and the basic bankruptcy of spirit is demonstrated by our country today.

Rand was both an observer and a prophet. Because our children were not taught history, they have been doomed to repeat it.

 

[code1211]

If one things Ayn Rand has any values to teach, they are utterly self-centered people looking to justify that self-centeredness in any way they can.

The only thing Rand can teach is how trauma can break a person and completely screw them up for life.

You present the ideology of the folks in Atlas Shrugged that condemned and cancelled those that were the creators and the leaders.

Can you cite any person that does no act in their own self interest?

 

[code1211]

Tried, and tried. Cannot finish or even get into her stilted, horrible dirges. I wanted to understand conservatives. She is pathetic. Unhappy and died alone.

But she is useful, so they have never let her die.

Watched the movie where Galt goes Galt. Really ridiculous premise.

I hope the greedy rich move away. Pay their taxes on the way out. We will figure out how to replace them. Give others opportunities.

What is the premise you believe is presented?

 

[Slartibartfast]

You present the ideology of the folks in Atlas Shrugged that condemned and cancelled those that were the creators and the leaders.

Societal advancement is more driven by technology than by individuals. The types of personalities tend to be repetitive and if great innovator x does not happen, then great innovator y will simply take their place.

Can you cite any person that does no act in their own self interest?

Everyone acts in their own self interest, however, it is not so simplistic as Ayn would present. A simple example would be to use game theory and using that to show how society cooperation can result in positive outcomes that do not rely on competition.

The development of the Linux Kernel is a great example of this.

Rand uses overly simplistic examples in her book, which is yet another problem with her writing and approach.

 

[code1211]

Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead were required reading for me in high school and later, in college. In all honesty, Rand' style is self-important and likes to repeatedly slap the reader in the face with what appears to be libertarian, fantasy ideals.

But when you look at her life, he non-fiction and her followers...you begin to wonder if she was her generation's Anne Coulter...a woman who is willing to make a buck off of others by catering to their views on life. How Rand lived her life was not in line with what she espoused to be her beliefs.

Fast forward to just a couple months ago: the Ayn Rand Foundation, a 33-person organization that creates think tanks and supports lobbyists to cut all social/welfare programs and to cut government interference in life in all manners...like giving additional unemployment benefits and the PPP...actually applied for and got, one million dollars from the very social program that Rand would have been against, a program that the organization should have been fighting against, based on their philosophy and previous actions.

In short, Ayn Rand and her followers are full of $h!t.

Did Rand's characters in Atlas Shrugged argue against social welfare for those in need?

 

[code1211]

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1295237072496873472

View attachment 67291849

The Fed - Distribution: Distribution of Household Wealth in the U.S. since 1989

View attachment 67291850

View attachment 67291851

With respect, our homeless in the US are largely homeless due to mental disorders.

The poor who are living in homes have many physical comforts available to them that were not available to Louis XIV.

The folks living under the poverty line in the US today are pretty well off by world standards of poverty.

The simple truth is that the economy of the US that exists today is about the best in world history at caring for the poor and poverty stricken. This includes US history.

The poor have always been with us. The difference in the US is that the poor are less burdened right now than they have ever been. They also possess the paths to escape poverty if they would like to follow them.

 

[Paradoxical]

The fact that you cannot see evidence of it tells me you should see a therapist.

I always want proof. Someone's opinion is not proof. As humans we need to get over just believing others.

 

[code1211]

I read Atlas Shrugged, it was trash and I had to keep putting it down due to its combination of utterly boring and lack of realism.

I am actually proud I was able to force myself through it.

What was the central thesis presented in the book by your perception?

It seems to differ according to the person who reads it.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I always want proof. Someone's opinion is not proof. As humans we need to get over just believing others.

Given that the desire for fairness is a human drive (like the need for sex or food) means that if you miss it, you are missing a piece of yourself. Please see a therapist.

 

[Slartibartfast]

What was the central thesis presented in the book?

I honestly never really found one, it was a bit all over the place.

 

[code1211]

Republicans would not know the values of Objectivism if they were shoved up their butts. They are in some cases even worse than Democrats in this regard.

Republicans and Democrats are only two sides of the same coin. if there were additional sides of a single coin, you could also add in Socialists and Communists.

They ALL- Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Communists- hate the President. The enemy of my enemy and all that.

Atlas Shrugged centers on people like Elon Musk.

 

[code1211]

Ayn Rand's fiction go under the label of romantic fiction and is thus indeed to be seen for what it is which is the advocacy of certain ideals. However, Ayn Rand never identified as Libertarian and the actual label is Objectivist.


Comparing Ayn Rand to the useless giraffe that is Ann Coulter is a huge insult. Ayn Rand did put her principles into practice and her ideas had a far greater impact than anything Ann Coulter ever wrote will ever have. In 20 years, no one will remember Coulter's name, but Ayn Rand's name will echo in eternity.


This criticism is hardly original or unexpected. ARI were early in declaring that they would apply for and accept the support-package and I believe Ayn Rand herself wrote an essay about accepting welfare-checks with the argument that you are just taking back the money that you paid in.


Not her biggest fan and certainly not an Objectvist, but only someone who does not understand her philosophy can call it "full of ****"

Like so many things, value can be found in a thing without the demand that the entire thing be valuable.

A gold mine produces a usable amount of gold. Also produces a bunch of other stuff. The other stuff can be discarded while using the valuable stuff.

 

[code1211]

You got this precisely backwards. The Objectivist philosophy is just an attempt to reclassify selfishness as a virtue because under certain circumstances it can sometimes be useful if you ignore much of human nature and psychology.

Its the philosophy of 12 year olds who never grew up and learned to be a part of society.

Are you a person that does NOT act on behalf of your own self interest?

 

[code1211]

Do you have a real retort or just this pretending that you have some special knowledge and pretending that I am incapable of insight?

What is your insight regarding the basic premise presented in Atlas Shrugged?

 

[code1211]

I actually think both We the living and Anthem are better. But, that is just my controversial opinion.

I have to admit that I was hoping to find a shorter version of Atlas Shrugged when I picked up those books.

I was disappointed.

That said, my expectation was not fulfilled and that probably colored my impression.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Like so many things, value can be found in a thing without the demand that the entire thing be valuable.

A gold mine produces a usable amount of gold. Also produces a bunch of other stuff. The other stuff can be discarded while using the valuable stuff.

This is completely true!

There is a value I found in the book in the form of therapy for those who are trying to find a voice and don't know how. It does help broken people with the idea that they might have a voice that is powered by their own mind and that is legitimate enough.

But I would also say legitimate therapy does this better.

 

[code1211]

Yes, I am a whole and mature adult that is talking.

However, the truth does remain, despite you trying to run away from a discussion, most people grow out of this kind of point of view in their early teens and some unfortunately do not.

We can discuss the philosophy behind it once the initial premise that I am pointing out is recognized.

What is the initial premise that you perceive?

 

[Slartibartfast]

What is your insight regarding the basic premise presented in Atlas Shrugged?

That it makes the mistake of cutting out one piece of human nature, emphasizing it, and then presenting it as the central premise of what it is to be human.

A more detailed version of this argument can be found here -> A Lesson from Atlas Shrugged

 

[Slartibartfast]

What is the initial premise that you perceive?

Its similar to Neitzche, will to power stuff