[W:682] Israel is committing the crime of apartheid, rights group says

[Mika-El]

The iceage I mentioned would cover the US as well. That's show ice ages work.

Ok fair enough. You hate em all equally.Listen W Jr. I prefer dogs. I hate people as a general rule. Much prefer dogs, horses, animals of any kind.

 

[mrjurrs]

Well first thanks for the retraction. I really do appreciate that. I don't agree with you that the Israeli government has a policy to drive Palestinians into the sea. I would say candidly, and its only my opinion of course, certain Israeli policies have been counter-productive to achieving peace and may have fueled and incited extremists on the Palestinian side. Of course. I say that because Israelis say that. They acknowledge it all the time. If you read their press, heard their conversations on t.v. spoke to their citizens and soldiers, you would know that. Are there a faction of extremist Israelis who want all Palestinians dead, I do not think so but I have met some very hateful extremist Israelis who spit in my face and told me to go back to Canada yes and because of the uniform I wore they spit at it saying I was working for the government trying to betray them. I was not. I was just a volunteer in a volunteer unit doing social work and hygiene things.

Look I have friends in the IDF. They do not sit around wanting to kill Palestinians neither do Israelis. The real issue is with extremists. Terrorists. Israel's armed forces have to deal with their own Israeli extremists and I have seen them do it. I was part of that. It is not easy. You don't see the young IDF soldiers getting spit at from both sides.

Look the West Bank is not a land title dispute simply between Israeli settlers and Palestinians. Most of it is between Palestinians. You would know that if you went there. It most certainly has a different law fror Palestinians on the West Bank than it does its own citizens.

It most definitely has a dilemma. If it stays on the West Bank indefinitely the status quo can not prevail. It either annexes it, or it cedes it to a second sovereign state It does not want to annex it because Palestinians there would become Israeli citizens. It knows that. The current regime wants to settle in about one 6th of the total area. It knows in a peace deal it would have to pull Israelis out.

I also wish to explain to you that not all Israeli settlers stole land. They purchased it legally and they have as much a right to purchase land and live on the West Bank as Palestinians. That issue is not the issue of who should be the sovereign government there. Its not the same issue. The land title laws are not as you or many think, identical to the dispute of whether that land should be under the rule of a Palestinian or Israeli state but who owns the land as an individual whether its a Palestinian or Israeli state.

I did not come on this thread to rationalize or defend any unfair results of land disputes. There are many yes. Israel has itself to blame for many yes.

My discussion was limited to Hamas attacking Israel and Israel's right to defend itself and to argue and defend it when it is compared to Nazis. I do not think you like some other posters did that analogy to hate. You are trying to say to me, why if Jews suffered so much they don't understand stateless Palestinians. Please believe me they do more than you think and they are not the blood thirsty bastards they are depicted as.

Yes their nation has made mistakes. There are moderates in Palestine and Israel trying to find non violent ways to co-exist. They will in spite of all the Hamas experts on this or other forums.

Thank you.

Thanks for taking the time to write. It is important for everyone to remember that everything is nuanced, and just because you think you know. there are others that know differently. Thanks for the knowledge. No nation can live with the threat of incoming missiles without responding. Having said that, it feels like Israel just does this every 5-8 years and this time, the toll is like it always is...12 dead Israeli's and 200+ dead Palestinians. Some damages versus destroyed neighborhoods.

Imo, Israel needs to try something else because what they have been trying isn't working. And I don't think US support for Israel is unlimited or unwavering anymore.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Sorry it doesn't in any context for the reasons I stated. Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization. It is not recognized as a legitimate government. It violates any and all laws except its own. If you want to write more clearly and differentiate Hamas from Palestinian people then I might see a point and then tell you the US and Israel and many nations in the past provided aid to Palestinian charities. What happened was Hamas intervened and in fact killed Palestinians receiving that aid and blew up the roads, schools, mosques, Israeli financial assistance built.

As well financial aid sent to the West Bank was intercepted by the PA and never distributed to its people and still is not distributed to its people. People in the Gaza turned to Hamas years ago because it was NOT a terrorist organization and run by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood that distributed the money to charities. Its sister charities were funded by Israel. Palestinians came into Israel to work and the IDF and Israelis built roads, schools, hospitals, mosques.

Then a Syrian cell took over. It kicked out the Hamas members who did not believe in armed violence. It then blew up the infrastructure Israel financed sending a message to its people never to work with Israel. It would take people who worked with Israelis on its infrastructure and bring them to the centre of the city and shove wood poles up their backsides and pull out their anal cavities and leave them half dead on the street as a warning. It also used rubber necklaces-a technique of placing a tire around the neck of Palestinians and lighting them on fire. I know I was there.

The US has tried. Israel has tried. Hamas and Islamic Jihad and approximately 200 or so other terrorist cells right now control the West Bank and Gaza. Abbas is a corrupt and weak man with no control of his own network which is a loose set of cells each with its own leader who does what they want.

As for Hamas it too is a network of cells each with their own leader. There is no unity within Hamas or within the PA. These factions fight with one another as much as they do Israel. They are unpredictable and they kill their own people if they get in the way and rule by fear now. I know I was there. I saw how they would forcefully come at night and take boys out of their homes with mothers protesting to train them.

Yes the world is unfair and so is the ME if that is your point but to suggest the US is unfair or Israel is unfair or the US favours Israel over the Arab world is just not true.

There are research alliances the US has with Israel they can not have with Arab countries that benefit their military industrial complex that then translate in technology transfer to non military uses in the US. The money invested in Israeli technology is then used to enhance the value of American technology which more than pays back the investments.

The US benefits from its alliance with Israel. Israel has created more patents for technology and medicine than any other country in the world and shares it with the US.

The US also to be fair has always supported Egypt when asked, Saudi Arabia, Jordan. It rid Iraq of a homicidal maniac. Its people genuinely have allied with Israel not for money but because of deeply held shared values as to democracy. The US has and will criticize Israel. Its not captive to it and never has been or vice versa.

The US and I make no bones about it are the only nation today we all can rely on to fight terrorism financed by Iran and the Russian regime or assisted by North Korea or Turkey.

I know you disagree. I am just responding respectfully with an alternative view. Thank you.

Not reading a word of your post until you show me the respect of reading mine in context.....and correcting your misrepresentation.

 

[gboisjo]

I’m certainly not hiding my contempt for the murderous thugs who slaughtered the people of Deir Yassin. That hurting your feelings is completely irrelevant on every level

Your a Jew hater, an semanticist who would back terrorist and probably Hitler as well. A hateful, spiteful, contemptuous individual who joins the ranks of
those who have sought to prejudice themselves against Jews.

 

[gboisjo]

Imo, Israel needs to try something else because what they have been trying isn't working. And I don't think US support for Israel is unlimited or unwavering anymore.

Screw the Jew haters of the world, annex Palestine and drive the terrorist and there supporters out once and for all. Be the Jews you were in the Six Day
War ..put your foot down with the terrorist scum. Do that and the world will do nothing but watch, some will bitch, but who cares. Take Control!!

 

[Tigerace117]

Your a Jew hater, an semanticist who would back terrorist and probably Hitler as well. A hateful, spiteful, contemptuous individual who joins the ranks of
those who have sought to prejudice themselves against Jews.

View attachment 67334403

And your evidence of that is.....what? I’ll give you a hint, sobbing over and over about how someone else is a “Nazi” is meaningless without evidence.

But I get that you are humiliated you can’t actually defend your claims.

 

[Mika-El]

Except that it isn't a fair fight since the US gives one side high tech arms systems for free and prevents the other side from getting any.

The conflict bring discussed on this thread is between Hamas and the IDF. The PA has a police force financed by the US. Its Fatah Hawks and other affiliated terrorists do not because they are terrorist.

The US does finace the military of Arab League nations.

So I responded to all the possible contexts to argue why I believe your allegation that the US is unfair is not reasonable.

If you feel I missed a " context" please explain it. To say you are not reading what I read because I missed your "context" without explaining the context if you think I missed it
carmi forceSo if you I fact want to change that context to other

Not reading a word of your post until you show me the respect of reading mine in context.....and correcting your misrepresentation.

Can you please explain the context you think I misrepresented and why.

 

[Mika-El]

The conflict bring discussed on this thread is between Hamas and the IDF. The PA has a police force financed by the US. Its Fatah Hawks and other affiliated terrorists do not because they are terrorist.

The US does finance the military of Arab League nations.

So I responded to all the possible contexts to argue why I believe your allegation that the US is unfair is not reasonable.

If you feel I missed a " context" please explain it. To say you are not reading what I read because I missed your "context" without explaining the context you think I missed is illogical. You assume I am deliberately and with malice ignoring you. if you think I missed a context please state it. PLEASE do not assume I am ignoring it.

Sorry I fixed the typos.

 

[NolanVoyd]

The conflict bring discussed on this thread is between Hamas and the IDF. The PA has a police force financed by the US. Its Fatah Hawks and other affiliated terrorists do not because they are terrorist.

The US does finace the military of Arab League nations.

So I responded to all the possible contexts to argue why I believe your allegation that the US is unfair is not reasonable.

If you feel I missed a " context" please explain it. To say you are not reading what I read because I missed your "context" without explaining the context if you think I missed it
carmi forceSo if you I fact want to change that context to other

Can you please explain the context you think I misrepresented and why.

How about you read the post I was responding to, and then read my post.

 

[Mika-El]

How about you read the post I was responding to, and then read my post.

I did. That is why I responded as I did. The fact you responded the way you did the first and now second time speak for themselves. If you can't be bothered to explain yourself and feel you do not have to and I must agree with you, that's silly and petulant. I would suggest if you think you can come on this post to give anyone ultimatums on how they must respond to you and what they must agree to you, you are mistaken. I would also suggest if you don't want to clarify don't respond further. Thank you. Of course if you want to keep responding telling me I must agree with you and not explain why you can do that to and I won't respond further as we now are talking in circles.

 

[Mika-El]

Your a Jew hater, an semanticist who would back terrorist and probably Hitler as well. A hateful, spiteful, contemptuous individual who joins the ranks of
those who have sought to prejudice themselves against Jews.

View attachment 67334403

You are better off resisting the baiting. Me too.

 

[NolanVoyd]

I did. That is why I responded as I did. The fact you responded the way you did the first and now second time speak for themselves. If you can't be bothered to explain yourself and feel you do not have to and I must agree with you, that's silly and petulant. I would suggest if you think you can come on this post to give anyone ultimatums on how they must respond to you and what they must agree to you, you are mistaken. I would also suggest if you don't want to clarify don't respond further. Thank you. Of course if you want to keep responding telling me I must agree with you and not explain why you can do that to and I won't respond further as we now are talking in circles.

You missed the point.

 

[Nickyjo]

Meanderimg thoughts... All analogies limp, but the parallels between Israelis as US settlers from Europe and Palestinians as Native Americans seem somewhat attractive to me, especially in the narratives they create for the opposing parties. Europeans fled persecution based on their religion - Virginians the exception - to come to a new part of the world. They found occupants there and moved them aside. The Indian occupants sometimes acted viciously in response. Nevertheless the territory occupied by the Europeans expanded and the Indians were pushed into increasingly smaller tracts of land. Their attempts to fight back failed consistently. The settlers maintained a democracy, an extraordinary military and a roaring economy that stood apart from many other countries in their hemisphere, which were often ruled by dictatorships as well as an authoritarian religion.

The religious persecution the Europeans fled cannot compare to the unspeakable horrors of the holocaust, the murder of so many millions in such a short time. Religious persecution and religious wars in Europe had some equal horrors, but they were spread out over centuries, not half a decade, though the Catholic Spaniards did bring the Inquisition to the new world, and made a mockery of their so-called "religion of peace," as also have some Muslims.

The similarities end there, as Israel has/had been surrounded by hostile states bent on its destruction, unlike the US and Latin America.

(In another limping analogy for your consideration, I believe those Arab states hostile to Israel mistakenly viewed the Israel-US relationship as the US mistakenly viewed Castro's Cuba, as a forward base of the Soviet Union in our neighborhood, with Arabs and the US both disingenuously denying Israeli/Cuban history and/or their right to self defense, seeing both countries merely as puppets of superpowers.)

 

[NO1]

If your city were being starved out via a blockade, would you care why someone said they were doing it?

Gaza's weight-loss centers

In the Gaza Strip, a high proportion of people suffer from obesity. “Only 18% to 25% of the Strip’s residents have a normal weight," he said. "The rest are suffering from obesity because of the nature of our life pattern, in addition to the unbalanced social lifestyle, bad eating habits, food traditions and dessert consumption.”

"starved"
You are not good in lying...

 

[oneworld2]

Food is getting through, the blockade doesn't block food. Your entire world view seems to be based on lies and deception it's weird.

To say the blockade doesn't block food misses some of the history of Israel actually blocking food stuffs into Gaza imo. There was a time when food stuffs were being blocked/considered prohibited and through the work of some HRs groups enough pressure was brought to bear to change that situation. Not sure if it still goes on today but it definitely did and pressure had to be brought before that changed. Not unlike the IDF official use of Palestinians as human shields at oine time.

It seems the most moral state in the world sometimes have to be pressured into not committing odious actions, who knew? Maybe there are good and bad in all peoples after all with nobody having the right to claim any type of global supremacism

 

[oneworld2]

Not to bomb civilians but certainly to defend itself and target Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists as it does, that's indisputable.

You can still commit crimes even if you claim to be defending yourself. Infact many of the crimes of history are portrayed by the perpetrators as being founded in defence.


Additionally, only the military operatives/combatants of the likes of Hamas are actually legitimate targets.

 

[JacksinPA]

Not my circus. Not my monkeys.

I wish the U.S. would "cancel" Israel and just let them fend for themselves. How one little piss-ant country can cause so much world disruption is beyond me.

Let them fight it out on their own. Last man standing turn out the light.

It's only politics & the Jewish vote that keeps us sending them $$$ & weapons to use against the Palestinians. It makes as little sense as subsidizing the big energy companies like Chevron & Exxon. And since we sold them KC-135 tankers, they can bomb Iran any time they choose & make the missions round trip instead of one-way suicide trips.

 

[oneworld2]

3.. The policy was stopped years ago.

By whom ? There's nothing worse than right wingers using the work of leftists to try to claim a moral position they themselves have , most likely, never supported

There was, AFAIK, pressure brought to bear on the practice by HR's groups. You know, the people you despise and criticize virtually every time they are discussed here?


That went to the Israeli supreme court and the IDF was told to stop the practice but appealed so as to continue it. They changed the name from " neighbourhood procedure " to" prior warning procedure". In short, the ending of the IDF from using Palestinians as human shields was resisted by the Israeli army and methods to circumvent it deployed by them.

You can read about it all here and groan about the fact that in military Israeli incursions into Gaza the use of Palestinians as human shields is a common event. This fron Cast Lead, which was after the court ruling to end the use of human shields by IDF personnel

The two soldiers in question had ordered a nine-year-old boy, at gunpoint, to open a bag they suspected was booby-trapped. Despite the gravity of their conduct – putting a young child at risk – the two were given a three-month conditional sentence and demoted from staff sergeant to private, some two years after the incident took place. None of their commanding officers were tried.

Human Shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians...

www.btselem.org

 

[Fledermaus]

By whom ? There's nothing worse than right wingers using the work of leftists to try to claim a moral position they themselves have , most likely, never supported

There was, AFAIK, pressure brought to bear on the practice by HR's groups. You know, the people you despise and criticize virtually every time they are discussed here?

That went to the Israeli supreme court and the IDF was told to stop the practice but appealed so as to continue it. They changed the name from " neighbourhood procedure " to" prior warning procedure". In short, the ending of the IDF from using Palestinians as human shields was resisted by the Israeli army and methods to circumvent it deployed by them.

You can read about it all here and groan about the fact that in military Israeli incursions into Gaza the use of Palestinians as human shields is a common event. This fron Cast Lead, which was after the court ruling to end the use of human shields by IDF personnel

Human Shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians...

www.btselem.org

In other words... The policy is no more.

While Hamas still engages in it... Oh, wait. All the dead in Gaza "volunteered" to shield Hamas.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your a Jew hater, an semanticist who would back terrorist and probably Hitler as well. A hateful, spiteful, contemptuous individual who joins the ranks of
those who have sought to prejudice themselves against Jews.

Mighty strong words.... And not warranted in the case of Tigerace117.

 

[Fledermaus]

You can still commit crimes even if you claim to be defending yourself. Infact many of the crimes of history are portrayed by the perpetrators as being founded in defence.


Additionally, only the military operatives/combatants of the likes of Hamas are actually legitimate targets.

The "military operatives/combatants" of a terrorist organization.....

Would you call Osama Bin Laden a "military operative/combatant" since he was an administrative and logistics head of Al Qaeda?

Wouldn't he be off your list of legitimate targets?

 

[oneworld2]

In other words... The policy is no more.

While Hamas still engages in it... Oh, wait. All the dead in Gaza "volunteered" to shield Hamas.

You are in the same category, you cherry pick the work of people who would despise your commentary. The explanation WHY the policy is no more is hugely instructive of other threads and themes that tie in with that decision. I don't expect your posts to offer anything like what could be considered analyses. There's a difference between volunteering and being forced into something by people with guns. It doesn't do your credibility any favours not understanding that.

 

[oneworld2]

The "military operatives/combatants" of a terrorist organization.....

Would you call Osama Bin Laden a "military operative/combatant" since he was an administrative and logistics head of Al Qaeda?

Wouldn't he be off your list of legitimate targets?

Hamas , as has been already confirmed, is a political party with civil and military personnel......... only those engaged in the military are legitimate targets and only when they are dressed up and engaging in hostilities AFAIAA. In the same way non engaged members of the IDF ,out of uniform are not legitimate targets for Palestinians.

Al Qaeda was never a political party, it never had politicians running in elections. It never had personnel dealing with civil matters to do with the running of a society. To compare the two shows just how inaccurate and childlike your commentary is in the above. Thus your questions are null and void, and to be honest, embarrassing to read on a serious forum

 

[Fledermaus]

Hamas , as has been already confirmed, is a political party with civil and military personnel......... only those engaged in the military are legitimate targets and only when they are dressed up and engaging in hostilities AFAIAA. In the same way non engaged members of the IDF ,out of uniform are not legitimate targets for Palestinians.

Al Qaeda was never a political party, it never had politicians running in elections. It never had personnel dealing with civil matters to do with the running of a society. To compare the two shows just how inaccurate and childlike your commentary is in the above. Thus your questions are null and void, and to be honest, embarrassing to read on a serious forum

Look at all that tap dancing....

Hamas has "military operatives/combatants" of a terrorist organization. They are a terrorist organization that has political power....

And what is "dressed up" while engaging in hostilities? There is a Hamas terrorist uniform?

Does this mean Hamas personnel not in uniform are illegal combatants and can be dealt as such?

(I suggest you think a bit before responding)

I ask again.

Would you call Osama Bin Laden a "military operative/combatant" since he was an administrative and logistics head of Al Qaeda?

Wouldn't he be off your list of legitimate targets?

 

[oneworld2]

Look at all that tap dancing....

Hamas has "military operatives/combatants" of a terrorist organization. They are a terrorist organization that has political power....

And what is "dressed up" while engaging in hostilities? There is a Hamas terrorist uniform?

Does this mean Hamas personnel not in uniform are illegal combatants and can be dealt as such?

(I suggest you think a bit before responding)

I ask again.

Would you call Osama Bin Laden a "military operative/combatant" since he was an administrative and logistics head of Al Qaeda?

Wouldn't he be off your list of legitimate targets?

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about in the above and every time things are explained you reply the same way anyhow lol

Maybe some other poster will be able to decipher your arguments/ wild inaccurate comparisons based on ignorance etc etc and be able to have an adult discussion. It's obviously a bridge too far for you imho