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[W: 67] Shireen Abu Akleh: Al Jazeera reporter killed by Israeli gunfire

Lord of Planar

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She was killed by sniper fire, and if you watch the video taken immediately after she was shot the other reporters that tried to help her were shot at as well. Plenty of time for a positive ID. Given how prominent of a journalist she was, you have to wonder if it was a targeted hit.
Walk me though it please.

I sniper is probably at least 500 yards away. How does that work?

Another question would be what type of camera was used?

I'm just throwing out ideas to consider.
 

Manc Skipper

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Nomad4Ever

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Walk me though it please.
The reporter was shot before the video starts. We see her lying face down and another reporter in shock taking cover. The other reporter tries to pull her a few times, but when she exposes more of herself a shot can be heard hitting in the area. Eventually someone (a civilian?) pull her away and there are a few more shots.

Seems impossible to be a false positive ID after all that. They have pretty distinctive press uniforms.
 

Lord of Planar

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The reporter was shot before the video starts.
Yes, so the video doesn't show who shot her or from what distance. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know.
We see her lying face down and another reporter in shock taking cover. The other reporter tries to pull her a few times, but when she exposes more of herself a shot can be heard hitting in the area. Eventually someone (a civilian?) pull her away and there are a few more shots.
So there is very little to make accurate assessment other than hearing gunshots.

Seems impossible to be a false positive ID after all that. They have pretty distinctive press uniforms.
Again, from what distance if the claim is a sniper?

Again, what was the camera she used?

Again, I am not claiming this to be fact. But if the reporter did aim her camera towards the Israelis, the distance matters as many professional video cameras can look like a rocket launcher from a distance. If the shooter thought it was a rocket launcher, then its only natural to shoot a person assumed to be picking it up to use.

I won't pretend to know what is happening there. I do know its one big problem area. I also know the narrative is often false, and propaganda.

I see this as another situation where we don't have enough solid evidence for any proper conclusion.
 

EMNofSeattle

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“ it’s not possible to learn from history and compare them to current events “

Said only you.
You are not learning anything and applying it, you are applying a totally inapplicable event on the other side of the world that has no comparison.
 

Apocalypse

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There is not a modern military in the world that hans't at some point targeted innocent bystanders. The amount of evidence you have to dismiss to believe the Israeli military has never targeted innocents is similar to believing the moon landing was faked.
There is not a single Western military that gives orders to target innocent bystandards, and yes Israel never targets innocent bystandards, including in this case where the journalist even if killed by fire from Israeli soldiers and not Palestinian gunmen, was clearly not the target.
 

uptower

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Very similar since the two were killed by Palestinians firing at IDF.
Killed in crossfire. It has yet to be determined more than one side was shootng in this latest case. Evidence suggests only the Israelis so far.
 

Lord of Planar

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Killed in crossfire. It has yet to be determined more than one side was shootng in this latest case. Evidence suggests only the Israelis so far.
I only see hearsay making that claim. Do you have information we don't have?

Never, ever, point a camera with a long lens at a military unit unless you know they know it is a camera. Even at that, they might think you are spotting for an artillery strike.

Im sorry, but my take thus far until I see otherwise, is the reporter put herself in the position if being seen as a hostile threat.

Even at that, I have seen no evidence it was she Israelis that shot her. Again, only hearsay.
 

Lord of Planar

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There is not a single Western military that gives orders to target innocent bystandards, and yes Israel never targets innocent bystandards, including in this case where the journalist even if killed by fire from Israeli soldiers and not Palestinian gunmen, was clearly not the target.
Orders to do so, probably not. There is a percentage of military personnel in any large army that will simply do as they please for the fun of it or out of stupidity. Again, not making a claim as to what happened. Just keeping an open mind. Just like we have bad cops here in the US who target minorities out of prejudice, the IDF probably has some as well.
 

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Orders to do so, probably not. There is a percentage of military personnel in any large army that will simply do as they please for the fun of it or out of stupidity. Again, not making a claim as to what happened. Just keeping an open mind. Just like we have bad cops here in the US who target minorities out of prejudice, the IDF probably has some as well.
Do as they please as in beat suspects unnecessarily and things like that.
Murder is on an entire different scale.
Even a soldier who executed an actual Islamist terrorist after he stabbed his companion faced trial here, so I cannot begin to imagine someone who will actually point and then shoot at the head of a woman from the press deliberately and for no reason at all.
The level of professionalism in the units that partake in these operations is so high it's a practically impossible scenario.
 

Lord of Planar

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Even a soldier who executed an actual Islamist terrorist after he stabbed his companion faced trial here, so I cannot begin to imagine someone who will actually point and then shoot at the head of a woman from the press deliberately and for no reason at all.
Do you know for a fact is was "for no reason at all?"

there was a similar incident during the gulf war, where a US solder shot a journalist with a camera that had a telephoto lens attached. I have asked if anyone knows how the camera was equipped, and apparently nobody has the answer.

I will repeat this: "Never, ever, point a camera with a long lens at a military unit unless you know they know it is a camera. Even at that, they might think you are spotting for an artillery strike."

Now can you factually state it was for no reason at all? What do you know that you aren't telling us? Please do tell.
The level of professionalism in the units that partake in these operations is so high it's a practically impossible scenario.
I tend to agree with that.
 

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I only see hearsay making that claim. Do you have information we don't have?

Never, ever, point a camera with a long lens at a military unit unless you know they know it is a camera. Even at that, they might think you are spotting for an artillery strike.

Im sorry, but my take thus far until I see otherwise, is the reporter put herself in the position if being seen as a hostile threat.

Even at that, I have seen no evidence it was she Israelis that shot her. Again, only hearsay.
There is so far no indication anyone other than the Israelis were shooting at all, and they knew that the press were there. Yes we can wait for the facts to come in and we should. But we know they have hit journalists before that they don't agree with.
 

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There is so far no indication anyone other than the Israelis were shooting at all, and they knew that the press were there. Yes we can wait for the facts to come in and we should. But we know they have hit journalists before that they don't agree with.
Who is saying that? What if they aren't being honest? Has Israel said anything yet?

What actual evidence is there?
 

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OK, apparently Israel has asked to examine the bullet, and aren't getting cooperation.

Israel is insisting it cannot determine who shot Al Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Akleh to death in Jenin on Wednesday without examining the bullet removed from her neck, according to an Israeli television report.
Channel 12 news says Israel has asked the US for assistance in the case, as Abu Akleh had American citizenship. The Israel Defense forces said earlier today that the Palestinians had rejected offers to be present and take part in the inquiry alongside an American representative.​


They have also offered two scenarios.

The Israel Defense Forces said it had not yet been able to determine who fired the fatal shot. But it said it had narrowed down the possibilities to two scenarios — one involving an instance of indiscriminate Palestinian gunfire, and the other a case of possible errant IDF sniper fire.

 

uptower

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Who is saying that? What if they aren't being honest? Has Israel said anything yet?

What actual evidence is there?
Don't waste time gaslighting. Israel has a history if such "accidents". They attacked her funeral too if you are looking for intent. Maybe they'll do a proper inquest. An independent investigation would be more reliable.
 

Lord of Planar

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Don't waste time gaslighting. Israel has a history if such "accidents". They attacked her funeral too if you are looking for intent. Maybe they'll do a proper inquest. An independent investigation would be more reliable.
How is trying to bring information to the table, and asking questions "gaslighting?"

Please do explain.

I know know its a tense situation over there, and has been for decades. I also know there are too many lies floating around to really know what's happening. I'm trying to get to facts, rather than allegations and assumptions.

Doesn't the truth matter? Or is the fabricated truth, to carry to the cause an OK lie?

What narritive is fact? I most certainly don't know, and I find it distressing that so many people think they "know" the facts!
 

uptower

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I know know its a tense situation over there, and has been for decades. I also know there are too many lies floating around to really know what's happening. I'm trying to get to facts, rather than allegations and assumptions.

Doesn't the truth matter? Or is the fabricated truth, to carry to the cause an OK lie?

What narritive is fact? I most certainly don't know, and I find it distressing that so many people think they "know" the facts!

Okay that's all fair comment.

However, then let's not waste time by 'assuming' it was some Palestinian gunman that talking heads have fabricated and may not have even been at the scene. The reporters themselves were filming the Israelis.

Let's not waste time blaming the victims for 'pointing a camera.': on today's battlefield yes accidents happen, but an Israeli soldier knows the difference between a camera and a gun and knows what colors the press wear. They also know when the press is in the area filming.
 

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It always looks like that and looks are irrelevant.
People throw a rock at police from 10 meters and then run to hide among the crowd and will later on be grabbed by the undercover police that operates drones that show who does what.
You see in the video a pallbearer who leaves the coffin to attack police and then goes back to hide underneath it, I didn't see you having problem with that.
The real question is why was such a large riot police contingent necessary so close for a funeral? It was pretty obvious that this would result in confrontation, doubly so due to the cause of death of the deceased. Of course, such critical thinking is never exercised, so instead they charged into the funeral procession.
 

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Okay that's all fair comment.

However, then let's not waste time by 'assuming' it was some Palestinian gunman that talking heads have fabricated and may not have even been at the scene. The reporters themselves were filming the Israelis.

Let's not waste time blaming the victims for 'pointing a camera.': on today's battlefield yes accidents happen, but an Israeli soldier knows the difference between a camera and a gun and knows what colors the press wear. They also know when the press is in the area filming.
We still don't know as a fact the round came from an IDF weapon. Why won't they cooperate in an investigation for the truth?
 

Lord of Planar

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The real question is why was such a large riot police contingent necessary so close for a funeral? It was pretty obvious that this would result in confrontation, doubly so due to the cause of death of the deceased. Of course, such critical thinking is never exercised, so instead they charged into the funeral procession.
Are you claiming its OK at attack armed soldiers with rocks?
 

uptower

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We still don't know as a fact the round came from an IDF weapon. Why won't they cooperate in an investigation for the truth?
The Palestinians don't trust an Israeli led investigation. They have good reason to suspect the IDF will conclude it was 'just an accident' with no repercussions. But would they really not cooperate with an independent international investigation, or is that just a Fox talking point?
 

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