[W:607]Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

[Conservative]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Wow! Just Wow!

I offer up three quality sources different sources (WaPo, Factcheck and Politifact) to back up my claims. Each of the source is rated very high for factual integrity.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/

Rather than comment on the materials I provided or otherwise direct an argument to the information at a hand, you redirect me to one of ultimate political porn sites, Conservative Tribune to get the "real facts".....

Conservative Tribune is rated as ".....Bias: Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy. A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, overt propaganda, poor or no sourcing to credible information and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence and ..... Overall, we rate the Conservative Tribune Questionable based on extreme right wing bias and numerous failed fact checks..." by https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/conservative-tribune/.

Its political porn! You should not be reading that stuff. It will turn your brain to mush, if it hasn't already......

But, OK, I did watch the 1 minute 24 second video. I learned absolutely nothing. She used the same data as Trump (obviously Trump visits the same political porn sites). It was not referenced or cross referenced. .. just numbers thrown out. Like Trump, she expected you accept them because she said them. It doesn't work that way. They mean NOTHING unless we can trace them to sources.

Moreover, she draws conclusions that are not necessarily supported by the numbers. I can see how you might relate to that as you have the same proclivity. Yes, border crossings are way down and apprehensions are way down. However, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the fence, as she suggests. It is a reflection of overall policy and execution of the policy. Moreover, the numbers compare 2015 to 2001. Actually they do far more to support the notion that the overall policies of the the Bush and Obama administrations were effective. So, did you mean to make an attaboy call out to President Obama?

Finally, they us tell the problem is substantially under control. They do not, at all, support the idea that a wall or an additional spend $5 or 10 or $20B is needed. They almost serve to tell us problem substantially solved. Spend the money elsewhere.

The local Tucson TV station had a field day with Trump's argument. Here is what they had to say...

https://www.kgun9.com/border-watch/...s-but-where-did-those-numbers-come-fromremove

In essence, they agree the numbers have dropped over the past 15 years, but the reason for that are complicated and not simply ascribable to fencing.

We all thank you for sharing your political porn stash with us. I know some people here often shake their heads at some of the conclusions you draw from data you present, perhaps we now have some insight.

Meanwhile, here is a pretty good chart on media sources (political bias and rigor). Note where my sources are. note where CT is...

View attachment 67246041

Just stay away from that stuff in the lower left and lower right corners. You will find your blood pressure much lower and your debate prowess much improved. Good sources: Gray circle in upper middle.

Bad sources: red circles lower right and left.

Bad sources? Quality sources? Did you bother to read the article? The source of the article has some very specifics in that article that Politifact supported. It really doesn't matter what Trump does because you are going to be against it. I like the bumper sticker showing Schumer and the statement if we cannot win elections we will import voters to make that change

Look I know how bad you want Trump out of office however you haven't explained why? Show me the charges against Trump? A person in this country is innocent until proven guilty and there are no charges against him. Explain to me the difference between what Trump is supposed to have done and what John Edwards did? You can indict a ham sandwich this country proving the indictment however is a difficult task



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[jghiretire]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Can you imagine if Mueller had 5 minutes with him?:lamo

Yep - I want to be a fly on that wall!!

 

[jghiretire]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

I'll just say that of course employers are part of the problem, and employers dictate policy because they have money and wield power and are who Congress listens to.

I'll just sort of restate where I am here. I'm for border security. But for those here, the reality is we (through our government and the laws we have on the books and CHOOSE to enforce) designed policy over a period of decades to get illegal workers here and keep them here and it's because government answers to people with money. So the illegals are just pawns, playing the game exactly, precisely as we asked them to play it, so i don't blame them at all. They have no power and no influence on anything. What they have is because we WANTED them to have it, and that includes education, basic food and shelter and healthcare. Healthy workers with kids taken care of and who get treated for disease and injury are good workers - that's why we treat them and provide benefits. If people with power and money were losing money hiring illegals, we'd get a policy change in a week. If we as taxpayers have to pick up a lot of the costs of hiring illegals, so much the BETTER for those with influence - they love foisting their obligations onto the general population.

So what I get sick of is people looking DOWN for people to blame when, as always in this country, the culprits are wearing suits and flying around in private jets. The fault is never and has never been with those who have no money and power.

That's why I'm so disgusted with Trump. He's part of the problem. I know his history and he had a well documented case of hiring illegals (Polish workers as I recall) to work on his buildings and he shafted them in a dozen different ways but he hired them because they worked for CHEAP and it's rich assholes like Trump who are the problem. But what he does is spend his time spitting on the immigrants, and encouraging the rest of us to do the same, and it makes me sick. If he called out his rich asshole buddies who hire these people, and was demanding punitive penalties on them, including guys like Nunes, I might have some respect for what he's doing, but that's not the way of the powerful and wealthy - they blame the little people for the problems THEY create, like the immoral scum some of them are.

Oh hell yeah!!

 

[Divine_Wind]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

....Look I know how bad you want Trump out of office however you haven't explained why? Show me the charges against Trump? A person in this country is innocent until proven guilty and there are no charges against him. Explain to me the difference between what Trump is supposed to have done and what John Edwards did? You can indict a ham sandwich this country proving the indictment however is a difficult task

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Just like John Edwards, Donald Trump deserves a fair trial. When do you think charges will be filed and the trial held? In office or the day after he leaves office? Will Congress impeach him for these crimes?

Sent from Looking Glass somewhere over Montana

 

[mrdeltoid]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

It's that kind of accounting that got Bernie Madoff sent to prison for 150 years.

Secondly, and most importantly, look at where that "40 Billion" is coming from....and shut it off at the tap. Why are we not arresting employers and renters who hire, harbor or otherwise support illegals? Why are we still sending Federal dollars to sanctuary cities? How does "the Wall" stop people from overstaying their visa or get rid of the 12 million illegals already here? Isn't it both smarter and a better use of taxpayer dollars to pass and enforce legislation solving those problems first before deciding if we need to blow billions of taxpayer dollars every year on a fixed fortification along a single border? Work smarter, not harder....and stop wasting US taxpayer dollars on vanity projects.

I'm not saying ignore the other aspects of the problem. Firstly yes, lets get serious about going after the employers that get slave labor from illegals. Hit them in the wallet. That's the way to deal with that. Take their incentive away, AND arrest them. Secondly, hell yes, cut off sanctuary city funding. And as the border patrol union points out, strategic placement of border walls that would make apprehending more manageable. The dems voted to approve over 500 miles of when Obama was POTUS, so a little over 200 miles shouldn't be a problem. One of the BP agents said one way they make illegal crossings is to have hundreds rush the border at several different locations, so some get caught, but many make it across. So long story short, I agree with all your suggestions, but strategic wall placement also is a plus.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

I didn’t see that, but if true how do you know what was on written on them?

I'm going by memory, but IIRC he was picking them up and was about to lay out the stats. I'm not trying to argue one thing or another, I was just making an observation.

 

[Conservative]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Just like John Edwards, Donald Trump deserves a fair trial. When do you think charges will be filed and the trial held? In office or the day after he leaves office? Will Congress impeach him for these crimes?

Sent from Looking Glass somewhere over Montana

On the topic, national security is the number one responsibility of the federal govt. but apparently not today's Democratic Party. This is a nation of laws but apparently not for today's Democratic Party.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

And why exactly would it cost the USA 40 billion annually? They bring in money and the second and third generations make more than the first generation has cost. The wall is not going to stop illegal immigration. Because the wall isn't going to stop the people who overstay on their visas which is about half the illegals entering the country.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ion-annuall/&usg=AOvVaw25XJzGMcriJqffOrbgUyNK

Our ruling
The White House claimed that "current immigration policy imposes as much as $300 billion annually in net fiscal costs on U.S. taxpayers."
A study from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine analyzed the fiscal impact of immigration under different scenarios. Under some assumptions, the fiscal burden was $279 billion, but $43 billion in other scenarios.
The report also found that U.S.-born children with at least one foreign-born parent are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors, thanks in part to the spending by local governments on their education.
The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details. We rate it Half True. So I put the conservative estimate of the fact check.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...s-wall-plans&usg=AOvVaw2fUenEWziUEFSsaif0xsQU
JUDD: I don't think it's going to be - well, OK, it's going to be a lot more secure. But what we're talking about is we're talking about a wall in strategic locations. We're not talking about a great wall of the United States. We're not talking about a continuous wall from California down to Texas. We're talking about a wall in strategic locations which then helps the Border Patrol agents do their job better.
INSKEEP: Because there are some places that are so sparsely populated and the ground is so fierce or so harsh you really don't need...
JUDD: Correct, correct.
INSKEEP: So you've told us when you were on the program last time that about 10 to 15 percent of the border has serious fences in your view and maybe you'd double that under this proposal.
JUDD: That's what I'm thinking. Again, I don't have the exact specifics of what they're going to do, but I do know that they're looking in specific places like Laredo, Texas, where we have very, very little walls. Yet, the state that Laredo, Texas, borders is extremely violent. And so we're looking in locations like that. They're looking in locations like that, but I think it's going to be very effective.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

...even with index cards, he didn't survive the fact check.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...schumer/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.454a8c9a9a48

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/12/factchecking-the-trump-pelosi-schumer-scuffle/

From above cite:
"....The president claimed that “a lot of the wall is built,” and he cited statistics purporting to show “it’s very effective” at stopping illegal immigration. But his figures correspond to those in a Customs and Border Protection video on various border security strategies deployed before he took office, from 1992 to 2016. And in most sectors Trump cited as successful, there is very little fencing designed to stop pedestrians...."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...hecking-trump-pelosi-and-schumers-public-whi/

BTW, Tucson is not on the border. Its 50 miles from the border.

Check out this article from NPR, which is certainly not a right wing outlet. I found it to be pretty interesting. My personal opinion is that both sides are being pretty hyperbolic. This article was a refreshing departure from the "attack/counter attack politics.

 

[jghiretire]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Agreed, unfortunately that's nothing new. The Liberals have joked for over two decades that "the flyover states don't count". Their push to eliminate the Electoral College dovetails directly into that ideology.

As for Trump, I doubt he even likes the Red states unless they can do something for him. Republicans like Red States, Trump just likes Trump. He's a poor President and I hope to see him resign.

Agreed. Not sure he will resign. If he's still here in 2020, if he loses I don't think he'll go quietly. He'll claim it was a fake election and refuse to leave peacefully.

 

[Puigb]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Agreed. Not sure he will resign. If he's still here in 2020, if he loses I don't think he'll go quietly. He'll claim it was a fake election and refuse to leave peacefully.

Yep, agreed. And he will call for a "revolution". He called for a "revolution" on twitter in 2012 when Obama won, imagine if he loses?

 

[jghiretire]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Agreed. OTOH, a major problem in our nation is that we aren't helping our citizens acquire skills for 21st century jobs. The concept of "teach a man to fish" comes to mind, especially when we look at how many people are on welfare in this country. Better to teach them than to just carry them for several reasons; more cost efficient, better for their self-esteem and better for the nation in terms of efficiency and GDP.

We are going backwards in our education. It's like the goal is to make "dumb and dumber".

 

[upsideguy]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Check out this article from NPR, which is certainly not a right wing outlet. I found it to be pretty interesting. My personal opinion is that both sides are being pretty hyperbolic. This article was a refreshing departure from the "attack/counter attack politics.

Link please!

 

[PTF]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Meeting with the pelosi-shumer comedy team should of never taken place. Our President Trump by now should know he cannot reason with the liberal/Demos,yet as our leader he tries to bring us together.

 

[Logician Man]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Meeting with the pelosi-shumer comedy team should of never taken place. Our President Trump by now should know he cannot reason with the liberal/Demos,yet as our leader he tries to bring us together.

How does Trump try to bring us together?...be specific.

 

[j-mac]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Agreed, unfortunately that's nothing new. The Liberals have joked for over two decades that "the flyover states don't count". Their push to eliminate the Electoral College dovetails directly into that ideology.

As for Trump, I doubt he even likes the Red states unless they can do something for him. Republicans like Red States, Trump just likes Trump. He's a poor President and I hope to see him resign.

He'll never resign...you have to beat him.

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[j-mac]

Re: Trump Oval Office meeting with Pelosi, Schumer spirals over border wall — live updates

Define "terrorist". A Middle-Eastern Jihadist wearing a suicide belt isn't the same as a cocaine "mule" or even a Cartel member traveling on "business".

Agreed the wall is "one piece", but it should be the last piece, not the first.


BTW, your signature quote is false. This is the actual quote: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#Chapter_I-V
"There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equality that spurs all men to wish to be strong and esteemed. This passion tends to elevate the lesser to the rank of the greater. But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level, and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom."

Tell me why it should be delayed? Put it this way, let's say you have a leak in your roof that is destroying your livingroom everytime it rains. Now, most rational people would say "fix the roof first", you on the other hand, seem to be saying 'remodel the bathroom '...

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