[W:40] More Hamas propaganda form a couple morons

[Mika-El]

Can't you see that #2 and #3 directly contradict each other?

Actuall know they do not. I said when Israel sends the IDF to respond its to an immediate threat. The goal is to stop or contain the immediate threat. No one in the IDF velieves trying to stop and contain the immediate threat is a long term solution to dealing with Hamas.

As well you make a lot of suggestions with no substance so I can not comment. Generalities of what should be done are platitdues. Specific steps with specific time lines and rules that would be followed would be something to comment on but only if after both sides agreed to them and both sides followed those rules for a sufficient period of time to show they are being followed.

Until then its platitudes. Israel should do this,, Israel should do that, Hamas should do this, Israel should do that. The reality is Hamas Syria and Lebanon, the PA and approximately 200 radical Muslim cells as well as Iran are at war with Israel to dismantle it as a Jewish state and [posing Hamas as victims with no option but terror to express is bs and with due respect, your advising Israel what it should do is a tad premature. People are shooting at it. Telling them to think of better ways to dodge the missiles so you don't upset Hamas is absurd and yes they are constantly incorporating tactics to try avoid killing civilians Hamas puts in harm's way.

Everything you discuss must be predicated on two people recognizing one another is equals and terrorists disarming. Hamas won't disarm. You want Israel back in its barracks disarm Hamas and the PA and have them both recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Then the IDF becomes a moot point and discussions can begin. When Hamas was non violent, their sister charities did work with Israel and achieve peaceful co-existtence. When they ripped that all up and chose terror as their only solution of course Israel now has to defend itself.

I worked on the West Bank and in Gaza on peace projects between Israelis and Palestinians.. Militant terrorists are the problem and specifically Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah Hawks and if you want the list of all the extremist Muslim terrorist groups operating in or around Israel vowing to wipe it out you can go look. On the other hand if you can find an Israeli terrorist group that like Hamas calls for world wide war against Muslims and to wipe out all Muslims in the ME do let me know and I will call the IDF and notify them to either arrest these people or put a missile up their collective asses. You'd be surprised what can be arranged to achieve peace and who can become allies in that peace process.

 

[Mika-El]

The entire above post is proof of your dishonesty.

You are putting words and opinions in my mouth I do not hold and never expressed.

Last chance. Apologize for the lies, and try again.

Otherwise we are done.

Hiding bombs in schools is rational.

No. You have put words in my mouth.

You have attributed to me opinions I do not hold and did not express.

It is dishonest.

Conversation closed unless you want to try again, honestly.

In post 112 you stated:

“Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power.

They (Israel) choose power everytime..

Fact. Hiding a bomb in a school is bad.

Fact. Destroying a school, children and all, because some asshole his a bomb in it, is ten times worse.

The biggest monster is the one that destroyed the school.”



Then in post 13 to defend the above you stated:

“I haven't made any excuses for Hammas.”


Then in post 118 you went on to further defend Hamas using schools as a terrorist operation site stating and I quote:

“Rational, (hiding bombs) yes.

Moral. Absolutely not.

I made that perfectly clear. (note actually you did not differentiate the two in previous responses or any responses and explain how something can be immoral but rational in any response)

The only thing more immoral is destroying the school, killing many of the kids, because some assholes hid bombs there”



Then in post 122 you stated when I challenged the above specific words and called you out for being a Hamas apologist you stated:

“No. You have put words in my mouth.

You have attributed to me opinions I do not hold and did not express.

It is dishonest.”

I have clearly referred to your words again. I did not make them up. They are your words.

 

[Mika-El]

I do wish to address the issue of anyone not just Nolan stating what Hamas does with schools is rational.

Hamas uses civilians to shield military objectives from attack as a win-win strategy. It is supposed to render military objectives less likely to be attacked because if they are and civilians are killed they can then deflect to the deaths of these civilians shifting the blame for the human shields-related deaths to the IDF.

So the question then becomes cam or should anyone define the deliberate use of civilians to kill them to gain sympathy for their cause rational?

Yes there are theories of terrorism that attempt to state the decisions terrorists make may be done rationally, i.e., based on planning, cost efficiency, maximum cause and effect but they only are meant to address specific moments and in particular, specific planning not the over-reaching question as to whether when all is said and done that planning resulted in a rational result. This is why many people call such theories , theories of Irrational raitonality. It should be remebred the limitation with any rational theory to descibe planning of operations isolates rationality from morality while most moral philosophers argue morality without rationality is necessarily immoral and it’s the lack of rationality is what makes it immoral, i.e., Hobbes, Kant.

I think to come on any forum and try rationalize using children as shields or civilians as shields inherently is irrational just as terrorism is because of the reasons set out in: https://www.gwern.net/Terrorism-is-not-about-Terror

Ask yourself , if placing civilians in harms way is rational has it:

1-enabled Hamas to take over Israel or has all it has done kill its own people and turn their homes and schools into ruins?

2-Does Hamas use schools, hospitals, residences as seldomly as possible and only as a last resort?

3-Has Hamas before choosing to engage in such tactics decided it would be more rational to recognize Israel exists as a Jewish state not try violently dismantle it?

I would say because the answer is no to all of the above, what it does is necessarily NOT rational.

I argue to divorce rationality from morality when it comes to human killing necessarily distorts its true essence. It makes excuses for it. It rationalizes it. It gives it a beginning and ending, and suggests terrorism is predictable "normal" behaviour victims engage in when in fact the vast majority of victims, in this case Palestinians and Israelis do NOT resort to terrorism.

I would also argue from witnessing it and speaking to directly impacted victims of it you come to realize terror is the act of angry people who have ceased being rational. No more, no less.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Hiding bombs in schools is rational.

In post 112 you stated:

“Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power.

They (Israel) choose power everytime..

Fact. Hiding a bomb in a school is bad.

Fact. Destroying a school, children and all, because some asshole his a bomb in it, is ten times worse.

The biggest monster is the one that destroyed the school.”



Then in post 13 to defend the above you stated:

“I haven't made any excuses for Hammas.”


Then in post 118 you went on to further defend Hamas using schools as a terrorist operation site stating and I quote:

“Rational, (hiding bombs) yes.

Moral. Absolutely not.

I made that perfectly clear. (note actually you did not differentiate the two in previous responses or any responses and explain how something can be immoral but rational in any response)

The only thing more immoral is destroying the school, killing many of the kids, because some assholes hid bombs there”



Then in post 122 you stated when I challenged the above specific words and called you out for being a Hamas apologist you stated:

“No. You have put words in my mouth.

You have attributed to me opinions I do not hold and did not express.

It is dishonest.”

I have clearly referred to your words again. I did not make them up. They are your words.

Holy cow guy, there you go again.

I have said repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that hiding bombs in schools is immoral.

Bombing the school, with. Children present, because some assholez hid a bomb there is way worse morally. The person hid the bomb their is a monster, the person that bombed the school and killed children because the bomb was there is the bigger monster.

Your problem seems to be understanding certain words. You seem to think rational and moral are synonymous. They are not.

A thing can be rational AND immoral, just like a thing can be moral but irrational.

Hiding the bombs there is NOT moral, but it is rational, because Israel does thing that is way more immoral every time.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Hiding bombs in schools is rational.

In post 112 you stated:

“Hammas is hiding bombs in schools because it makes Israel choose between morality and power.

They (Israel) choose power everytime..

Fact. Hiding a bomb in a school is bad.

Fact. Destroying a school, children and all, because some asshole his a bomb in it, is ten times worse.

The biggest monster is the one that destroyed the school.”



Then in post 13 to defend the above you stated:

“I haven't made any excuses for Hammas.”


Then in post 118 you went on to further defend Hamas using schools as a terrorist operation site stating and I quote:

“Rational, (hiding bombs) yes.

Moral. Absolutely not.

I made that perfectly clear. (note actually you did not differentiate the two in previous responses or any responses and explain how something can be immoral but rational in any response)

The only thing more immoral is destroying the school, killing many of the kids, because some assholes hid bombs there”



Then in post 122 you stated when I challenged the above specific words and called you out for being a Hamas apologist you stated:

“No. You have put words in my mouth.

You have attributed to me opinions I do not hold and did not express.

It is dishonest.”

I have clearly referred to your words again. I did not make them up. They are your words.

Holy cow guy, there you go again.

I have said repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that hiding bombs in schools is immoral.

Bombing the school, with. Children present, because some assholez hid a bomb there is way worse morally. The person hid the bomb their is a monster, the person that bombed the school and killed children because the bomb was there is the bigger monster.

Your problem seems to be understanding certain words. You seem to think rational and moral are synonymous. They are not.

A thing can be rational AND immoral, just like a thing can be moral but irrational.

Hiding the bombs there is NOT moral, but it is rational, because Israel does thing that is way more immoral every time.

None of that is a defense of Hamas.....how do you not understand that?

 

[Mika-El]

None of that is a defense of Hamas.....how do you not understand that?

With due respect these are your words in post 129:

"Hiding the bombs there is NOT moral, but it is rational, because Israel does thing that is way more immoral every time."

The above is a defense and rational for what Hamas does. Those are your words.

 

[NolanVoyd]

With due respect these are your words in post 129:

"Hiding the bombs there is NOT moral, but it is rational, because Israel does thing that is way more immoral every time."

The above is a defense and rational for what Hamas does. Those are your words.

That is not a defense of Hamas.

How do you figure it is?

If I said "the soviet build up of nuclear arms during the cold war was rational, though not moral"
... would you say I was "defending the commies".

Do you see how that eliminates the possibility of rational discussion. .....if you think discussing something rationally, like hamas tactics, equals defending Hamas then YOU shut the door on rational discussion.