[W:315]Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

[j-mac]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Ah, but the bolded is your opinion - which I can respect, but I think you're wrong.

I don't see the bolded at all. At least within the general public. I think Trump & the GOP will take the bulk of the general public wrath once Pelosi starts sending them CRs & other bills. We very much disagree here.

The proof will be within the polls.

Yep, and that is the remedy....If you're right he'll lose in 2020....If not, he will be re elected...

 

[j-mac]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

If he shut-down trade, yes I believe they finally would move against him. Perhaps not with removal, but politically and legislatively.

As Pelosi starts sending CRs & bills, it's going to be the GOP take the most heat. They're actually pretty screwed here. And I think it couldn't happen to a finer bunch!

If what you predict is true, then we are done as America....I hope that isn't the case.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

What's he going to do, ignore posse comitus and deploy a couple hundred thousand troops along this border?

Or is he just going to shut down the check points and **** over anyone who happens to be on a pre-arranged trip - business or pleasure - while doing absolutely nothing to stop people who had no intention of entering at a checkpoint? It's like a bank robber deciding to show the cops he means business by shooting one of the other robbers; except not quite, because some would still argue there's a net gain to that action.



As usual, as always, the GOP's immigration policy is not intended to accomplish anything. It's all a show, always.

Only in reference to your first sentence: Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the Posse Comitatus Act.

 

[Mr Person]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Only in reference to your first sentence: Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the Posse Comitatus Act.

The Act that works with the Insurrection Act to limit federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies? The one stopping a President from ordering the army or airforce (extended by regulation to cover other services, like the navy and the marines) in to enforce such a domestic policy, like shutting down our side of checkpoints?

The Act that would stop Trump from actually lining up troops on US soil along our border to close it, by enforcing domestic immigration laws?

That one?




Bite at someone else's ankles. I don't have the patience anymore.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Source: (The Guardian) Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

So here we go. It is my opinion that once Nancy Pelosi and the new House is installed come Jan 3, that she will be in the catbird's seat. Trump will increasingly feel the heat of inaction. In fact, it appears to me he's already flailing-around with Tweets like this, digging a deeper hole for himself, seemingly without an exit strategy.

Does he even have an exit strategy? We shall see.

Mr Trump's announcement can easily be interpreted as

"Hey you Greasers - you know that really great new NAFTA 2.0 that I hornswoggled you into accepting, well, I just tore it up. So find some other markets for your stuff because I'm not letting any of it into My country."
​

This, of course, will do absolutely nothing but increase the willingness of other countries to deal with the government of the United States of America as if they were dealing with a rational entity.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

I think many have given up on polls....They are too subjective to the way questions are designed....Besides, we are at a point in this country where some unpopular things must be done, in the greater name of our nation surviving.

You know J-mac, I know you're sincere here. I very much respect that. I too want secure borders, an end to illegal immigration, and if I believed there was no other choice, I'd support the wall. Seriously. But it's hard to do that now though, when they (DEM/GOP/Trump) won't even mandate E-Verify to stop illegal hiring, or make a hard effort to secure the border without the wall firstly. So I see Trump's wall as a narcissistic political prop.

But the thing here with my posting, is I'm doing political analysis, even if I'm partisan in the issue. And my political analysis & gut instinct leads me to believe Pelosi has the upper hand in this. If I saw otherwise, I'd say that. Regardless of my personal feelings. But, I don't (see it).

 

[MrPeanut]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

The bolded is the most salient point.

Even though Americans largely support DACA, they didn't support Schumer shutting-down the government over it. It's one thing to support an issue, it's another thing to support a shutdown over it. And with this issue, Trump is already behind on basic support for it, much less supporting shutting-down the government over it.

The general polling numbers are going to be atrocious for him. Trump may draw some content if he holds support within his base, but the GOP will freak.

I can only imagine the amount of pressure that the GOP is feeling right now. We've seen republicans force through unpopular bills, because of the comfort of the undemocratic apportionment of senators, but I think this is different. Complete closure of the border would be a disaster for everyone, and on top of that democratic voters are more than ready to stand solid against Trump which has got be very reinforcing for Pelosi. The hard part for Trump and the GOP is finding a way to get out of this without looking like losers.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Why do the Democrats need to fund a wall that Mexico is paying for?

You have missed the point.

According to Mr. Trump the Mexicans will EFFECTIVELY be paying for "The Great Wall" because the US will be making just tons of money out of the increased profits arising out of "The Great NAFTA Victory" and to make sure that that happens He is going to stop all trade with Mexico.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

What's he going to do, ignore posse comitus and deploy a couple hundred thousand troops along this border?

Or is he just going to shut down the check points and **** over anyone who happens to be on a pre-arranged trip - business or pleasure - while doing absolutely nothing to stop people who had no intention of entering at a checkpoint? It's like a bank robber deciding to show the cops he means business by shooting one of the other robbers; except not quite, because some would still argue there's a net gain to that action.



As usual, as always, the GOP's immigration policy is not intended to accomplish anything. It's all a show, always.

The courts would rule against him (Trump), as usual. The problem here, is Trump's got to figure-out how to lead, negotiate, and legislate. He's failing at this, and getting nowhere.

 

[trixare4kids]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Yeah. Somehow we went from,

"Mexico will pay for the wall"

to,

"I'll shut-down their government, unless the American citizens give me money"

It's insulting.

It's not insulting to his base, 90% who stand behind his efforts to obtain funding for border barriers, and other related expenses.
"Elections have consequences."

Though I'm not happy about the shutdown and I doubt many others are either, the ball is in the Democrat's corner.
It's insulting that the obstructionist Democrats are digging their heals in over a very minuscule amount for the border compared to the other proposed expenditures. That's what is insulting...
What it also shows to me is that the Democrats are all smoke when it comes to getting DACA. IF they want something for their base, they have to give something back. The Democrats need to negotiate....
I stand behind Trump not giving into the Democrat's temper tantrum. People didn't send these legislators to congress to play politics.

As the impasse continues, the president and other conservatives have pointed to previous votes — including the Secure Fence Act of 2006 and the Senate bill that Mr. Menendez helped negotiate — as evidence that Democratic objections are driven by spite for the president, not opposition to the policy itself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/us/politics/government-shutdown-wall.html

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Interesting. But a war with who? Mexico? Some other random country, to deflect from how he is circling the drain?

There is absolutely no doubt in Mr. Trump's mind that the US military could defeat the Canadian and Mexican militaries if He ordered them to do so.

Once that happened, then the Mexicans and Canadians would welcome their American liberators with showers of candy and flowers tossed by hordes of willing, nubile, maidens who would compete to see who could show their gratitude to their American liberators in the most satisfying manner.

I mean, the Canadians are almost like Americans (just dumber and they spell funny) and every American should have a Mexican for a pet - right?

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

The Act that works with the Insurrection Act to limit federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies? The one stopping a President from ordering the army or airforce (extended by regulation to cover other services, like the navy and the marines) in to enforce such a domestic policy, like shutting down our side of checkpoints?

The Act that would stop Trump from actually lining up troops on US soil along our border to close it, by enforcing domestic immigration laws?

That one?




Bite at someone else's ankles. I don't have the patience anymore.

The act would not stop Trump from defending the border using US troops. That doesn't mean that he would or by any means that I would support that, but the closing the border is not a domestic issue, using troops to man a checkpoint could certainly be argued that it is a domestic issue.

If you don't want to debate, perhaps you should increase your patience or spend less time on the site.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

He'll declare war on Freedonia. (Cf. the Marx Brothers.)

Or maybe, anyone remember this one?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

For what? He has the authority to do so.

For shutting down the border with a major trading partner and thus tanking the economy, that's what.

And how does the president have the authority to unilaterally shut down the border and not allow anyone across? If he actually has that authority, then it's way past time to quit giving the executive branch more and more power. The balance of powers in the Constitution is there for a reason.

Dang liberals, always wanting to ignore Constitutional guarantees and move us further toward an authoritarian government!

 

[Mr Person]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

The act would not stop Trump from defending the border using US troops. That doesn't mean that he would or by any means that I would support that, but the closing the border is not a domestic issue, using troops to man a checkpoint could certainly be argued that it is a domestic issue.

If you don't want to debate, perhaps you should increase your patience or spend less time on the site.

I see you have misunderstood: what I don't have patience for is people who just go around biting ankles to score a cheap point, like you did, especially while being wrong.




Want an undeserved chance?

If you understood the immigration laws they could enforce - unlawful presence and unlawful entry - you would know that these were indeed domestic policies - the are not military missions on other country's soil, they are laws about what sort of people may be inside the united states - therefore the armed services could not be deployed on U.S. soil along the border, to enforce them which is where they would have to be unless you want to talk about actually invading Mexico, which wouldn't violate the Acts. Specifically because of all this, any federals that have helped out border patrol/ICE have been in a supporting role.

You're just wrong.

:shrug:

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

The bolded is the most salient point.

Even though Americans largely support DACA, they didn't support Schumer shutting-down the government over it. It's one thing to support an issue, it's another thing to support a shutdown over it. And with this issue, Trump is already behind on basic support for it, much less supporting shutting-down the government over it.

The general polling numbers are going to be atrocious for him. Trump may draw some content if he holds support within his base, but the GOP will freak.

You do have to admit that "Team Trump" is doing all it can do to assist the government employees who aren't getting paid.

I mean they sent eMails out in which they provided those employees with sample letters to send to their creditors explaining why they couldn't make their payments and asking the creditors not to put them into default on their mortgages, utility bills, credit card accounts, and the like.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

I see you have misunderstood: what I don't have patience for is people who just go around biting ankles to score a cheap point, like you did, especially while being wrong.




Want an undeserved chance?

If you understood the immigration laws they could enforce - unlawful presence and unlawful entry - you would know that these were indeed domestic policies, and therefore the armed services could not be deployed on U.S. soil to enforce them. Specifically because of this, any federals that have helped out border patrol/ICE have been in a supporting role.

You're just wrong.

:shrug:

I understood exactly what you meant, you attempted to be dismissive and insulting. Again, you are taking a view of using troops to enforce immigration law, which clearly I agreed with, yet isn't the topic of the thread. It is closing the border. Closing the border isn't immigration law, it is closing the border. For good or ill, the President can do that.

 

[Nickyjo]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Or maybe, anyone remember this one?


View attachment 67246841

Indeed. Where is Peter Sellers when we need him? If he were alive, forget Pence. Getting rid of Trump, we could then ask Chauncy to take over. Sigh.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Or maybe, anyone remember this one?


View attachment 67246841

What you have to remember is that the ACTUAL "war objective" of the Duchy of Grand Fenwick was to LOSE the war with the United States of America so that the "guilt stricken Americans" would pour truck fulls of money into their country.

Mr. Trump simply cannot afford to lose a war with Mexico because the Mexicans just might not want their independence back. Of course if the US absorbed Mexico that would completely solve the problems of "Mexican Illegals" in the United States of America - wouldn't it?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

You do have to admit that "Team Trump" is doing all it can do to assist the government employees who aren't getting paid.

I mean they sent eMails out in which they provided those employees with sample letters to send to their creditors explaining why they couldn't make their payments and asking the creditors not to put them into default on their mortgages, utility bills, credit card accounts, and the like.

Wow! I'm sure the creditors, landlords, power companies, and the like will be totally impressed by that and forgive the government employees of any debts that they can't pay due to unemployment. Sure, that's how it works, sure.

 

[rhinefire]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Trump is like watching the movie "The Russian Are Coming".

 

[Saladin4]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

It's not insulting to his base, 90% who stand behind his efforts to obtain funding for border barriers, and other related expenses.
"Elections have consequences."

Though I'm not happy about the shutdown and I doubt many others are either, the ball is in the Democrat's corner.
It's insulting that the obstructionist Democrats are digging their heals in over a very minuscule amount for the border compared to the other proposed expenditures. That's what is insulting...
What it also shows to me is that the Democrats are all smoke when it comes to getting DACA. IF they want something for their base, they have to give something back. The Democrats need to negotiate....
I stand behind Trump not giving into the Democrat's temper tantrum. People didn't send these legislators to congress to play politics.



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/us/politics/government-shutdown-wall.html

5 Billion is minuscule?...I remember recently the GOP congress voting (they failed) to shut down NPR's budget of 100 million...Too much money, cut the spending they cried...What a joke...The bigots aren't getting a wall...Period

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

Mr Trump's announcement can easily be interpreted as

"Hey you Greasers - you know that really great new NAFTA 2.0 that I hornswoggled you into accepting, well, I just tore it up. So find some other markets for your stuff because I'm not letting any of it into My country."
​

This, of course, will do absolutely nothing but increase the willingness of other countries to deal with the government of the United States of America as if they were dealing with a rational entity.

Greasers?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

t

@realDonaldTrump
Following Following @realDonaldTrump
More
.....close the Southern Border. Bring our car industry back into the United States where it belongs. Go back to pre-NAFTA, before so many of our companies and jobs were so foolishly sent to Mexico. Either we build (finish) the Wall or we close the Border......

@realDonaldTrump
Following Following @realDonaldTrump
More
.....Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador are doing nothing for the United States but taking our money. Word is that a new Caravan is forming in Honduras and they are doing nothing about it. We will be cutting off all aid to these 3 countries - taking advantage of U.S. for years!

Here I thought Trump had re negotiated NAFTA in a way that would just pour tons of cash into the US. Now, he wants to close the border and stop that flow of cash. If he does that, who will pay for his wall?

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Trump threatens to shut border 'entirely' unless Democrats fund wall

I can only imagine the amount of pressure that the GOP is feeling right now.

Hah! That pressure started when Trump entered the primaries, and continuously escalated until now! The party today, isn't even a shell of it's former self.

We've seen republicans force through unpopular bills, because of the comfort of the undemocratic apportionment of senators, but I think this is different. Complete closure of the border would be a disaster for everyone, and on top of that democratic voters are more than ready to stand solid against Trump which has got be very reinforcing for Pelosi. The hard part for Trump and the GOP is finding a way to get out of this without looking like losers.

Yep. That's it in a nutshell. No exit strategy on Trump's part, as usual.