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[W:277] Florida's DeSantis moves to allow citizens to shoot looters, rioters targeting businesses

Daddyo

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This seems like a strawman, because I don't think anyone in this thread believes you have the right to drive up and start shooting. Force has to be proportionate in order to be just.



Suppose the looters say to you (credibly) that they have no interest in harming you, they only want your stuff, and they start hauling the contents of your store away. Would you let them? Let's suppose in this scenario you own a jewelry store, and you have no insurance to cover the loss.
Before they enter my business they will be greeted by less than lethals. Pepper spray (hand held) and pepper balls fired from a paintball marker.

I have the right to stop the theft you described. In doing so I will be instantly placed in fear of death or great bodily harm by the multiple opponents. What happens next depends on the badguys. Compliance is advisable.
 

Daddyo

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No, in this scenario this is no fear for your physical safety, I thought I had made that clear. Here's the hypothetical again:

Suppose the looters say to you (credibly) that they have no interest in harming you, they only want your stuff, and they start hauling the contents of your store away. Would you let them? Let's suppose in this scenario you own a jewelry store, and you have no insurance to cover the loss.
I have the right to stop them. In your scenario what will be their reaction to my attempt to prevent the theft?
 

Daddyo

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Let's get real here. Faced with the real danger of violence during riots, the Gov decided to wave his dick around and sound tough. If his effort succeeds there may be a few more unnecessary deaths of the guilty and probably the innocent. Do you really think cops and prosecutors want to deal with the aftermath what the Gov is suggesting, assuming people follow his lead? But posture is more important than reality or solutions. This is like Trump saying we should murder the families if terrorists. His military won't go for it, but it allowed him to jut his jaw and appeal to mouth-breathers.
Getting real means putting yourself in my shoes. Perhaps then you would understand the need. All I can tell you is that its needed badly. It's needed as a prophylaxis (to use covid talk) and as protection for innocent civilians put in this violent scenario through no cause of their own.

Don't loot or riot and you will be fine.
 

Daddyo

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You make sense in your comments, but as I understand the proposal by the Gov, I don't like the idea of permitting people uninvolved in an incident be, as they say, judge, jury and executioner over what comes down to a property crime.
I have mixed emotions about that part. It will be a preventative and abused for sure. It will also save businesses and lives for sure. So I'm torn.

I tend to err on the side of passage as avoiding being hurt by the law is as simple as complying with the law. Being harmed by this law requires breaking the law.
 

Daddyo

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Not really. I might take a pic of the guy, commit to memory his looks and clothes, trip him if I was feeling brave, but not summarily execute him. For all I know, he’s the store owner’s son trying to protect inventory. Think of Travon Martin. Somehow I think the cops would approve.
Trayvon Martin violently attacked a man. He punched him, mounted him, and began to rain MMA styled punches down on the guy. Ground and pound style. Zimmerman saved himself from death or great bodily harm in that case. I was no execution. I watched the whole thing. Martin was a thug and a burglar. He was also high on lean.
 

Daddyo

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It is true Trump hasn't MIS-managed this Pandemic because according to all involved he hasn't shown up at a Covid-19 strategy meeting in MONTHS.. So he hasn't MIS-managed it, he hasn't managed it at all..

Obama had 4 people die on his watch in Benghazi and the Republicans and the Con media masters lost their minds.. Trump goes golfing and doesn't even go to meetings about the Virus that has killed 250,000 people, and almost every Republican politician still support Trump and millions of his cult don't give a damn... And oh BTW many of these callous they don't care how many die from Covid-19 Republicans are PRO-LIFE, or at least they say they are..

What a bunch of callous, awful human beings Trump's cult is...
Go kill some more babies you bastion of goodness democrat. Continue your push to socialism on your way why don't you. Socialism has caused the deaths of many time more.

Blaming trump for flu death now nice. Gonna blame biden for swine flu deaths? How about the regular flu death during the obama biden reign some 250,000 over 8 years.

BTW the rioters, killers, and looters are not Trump supporters they are your people genius.
 

Daddyo

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Won't it be ironic when we discover that for the next 8 years all the rioters and looters will be butthurt trumpists? We all know it's going to happen, it always does!
Conservatives don't riot sorry to rain on your parade.
 

Daddyo

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Take it up with the insurance companies. If you are in business of any sort you need insurance. It seems to me the business owners are the ones who whine the most while they also benefit the most, way more than their employees.
And if you cant afford the extremely high premiums then what? You gonna pitch in? You wage earners always think that the business owner is rolling in cash. You only see the good parts. You never remember the slow downs that cause owners to pull from savings to keep the thing going or the months with little or no pay trying to stretch things till the money starts coming back in. Now its insurance for riots, 11 percent tax increases, and regulations from hell lol. Start a business and then talk your crap lol.
 

Nickyjo

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Getting real means putting yourself in my shoes. Perhaps then you would understand the need. All I can tell you is that its needed badly. It's needed as a prophylaxis (to use covid talk) and as protection for innocent civilians put in this violent scenario through no cause of their own.

Don't loot or riot and you will be fine.
What in current law prevents a shopkeeper from protecting his store? Why would an innocent civilian want to shoot a looter who is stealing something? The gov is trying to legalize a form of lynching. Prosecutors are already expressing reservations about the civilian imposed death penalty for property crimes. As I think I said, this should be called the DeSantis Cluster**** Law. Examples: suppose a guy shoots a "looter" who turns out to be the store owner? Is he then guilty of homicide? Suppose someone, a cop maybe, or another civilian, seeing some guy pointing a gun, shoots the civilian? Sounds justifiable, doesn't it? The law says, from what I understand, that if he is within 500 feet of a riot, he can shoot a looter. Suppose I get it wrong and the riot is 520 feet away? Can the citizen follow the looter to his home, knock on his door and shoot him there, if the looter lives within 500 feet of he store? What happens if he misses the looter and kills a kid across the street watching the action from his window across the street?

As I said, this is no more than dick-waving.
 

Daddyo

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Holy cow, Daddyo! What a post! I'm so impressed by your bravery when it comes to defending your loved ones! And you have such a great attitude about it--where you hope you don't have to do anything but are willing to do it--which is the mark of a true hero. I'm just kind of floored. This is a good example of what I was saying in another thread a while back--"On a message board, you never know who you're talking to." Thanks for posting that, Daddyo!
Thanks. It did feel good and it was spooky.

What is amazing looking back is how things in life can change your path. I spent my junior and senior years of high school in criminal justice preparing for a career in law enforcement. That riot change my path. Had that cop not placed the choke on that man there would have been no riot. I would have become a deputy. Likely never met my wife or had my kids. Certainly would never have learned my trade meaning no business lol. Crazy.

Thanks again. It always nice to have a civil debate with someone.
 

Daddyo

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Did you have something intelligent to say, or are you just going to keep tossing those childish ad homs? :)
You are not capable of comprehending intelligent speech. Get back to your bridge.
 

Daddyo

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You'll get no argument from me that our friends on the left are, increasingly, less serious about preventing crime than they used to be or should. be. And while I think their lack of seriousness -- and its consequences -- make the desire for vigilante justice understandable, it still doesn't make it advisable.
I dont see preventing my business from being looted or burned as vigilante justice at all.

Being this law grants legal authority by definition it cannot be vigilante justice.
 

Daddyo

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What in current law prevents a shopkeeper from protecting his store? Why would an innocent civilian want to shoot a looter who is stealing something? The gov is trying to legalize a form of lynching. Prosecutors are already expressing reservations about the civilian imposed death penalty for property crimes. As I think I said, this should be called the DeSantis Cluster**** Law. Examples: suppose a guy shoots a "looter" who turns out to be the store owner? Is he then guilty of homicide? Suppose someone, a cop maybe, or another civilian, seeing some guy pointing a gun, shoots the civilian? Sounds justifiable, doesn't it? The law says, from what I understand, that if he is within 500 feet of a riot, he can shoot a looter. Suppose I get it wrong and the riot is 520 feet away? Can the citizen follow the looter to his home, knock on his door and shoot him there, if the looter lives within 500 feet of he store? What happens if he misses the looter and kills a kid across the street watching the action from his window across the street?

As I said, this is no more than dick-waving.
The law needs refining for sure but i disagree that its pecker waving.
 

Nickyjo

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Trayvon Martin violently attacked a man. He punched him, mounted him, and began to rain MMA styled punches down on the guy. Ground and pound style. Zimmerman saved himself from death or great bodily harm in that case. I was no execution. I watched the whole thing. Martin was a thug and a burglar. He was also high on lean.
White guy kills an unarmed black guy. Yawn.
 

Nickyjo

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I have mixed emotions about that part. It will be a preventative and abused for sure. It will also save businesses and lives for sure. So I'm torn.

I tend to err on the side of passage as avoiding being hurt by the law is as simple as complying with the law. Being harmed by this law requires breaking the law.
But one could be harmed by a trigger happy civilian who mistakes you for a looter. That's the problem. But I looked up the law and could find nothing that relates to what we are arguing about. Does anyone have text that frees a person from liability if he shoots a presumed looter?
 

lurchadams

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Conservatives don't riot sorry to rain on your parade.
Bullshit. Here are the thugs at the MI state house (not the ones who attempted to kidnap the governor, these were other right wing thugs).

Mich Protestors.gif
 

Nickyjo

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The law needs refining for sure but i disagree that its pecker waving.
Really? Commentary I have seen suggests the Gov was trying to imitate Trump for political reasons. I view it as similar to Trump's dick-waving when he suggested that we "take out the families" of terrorists. Of course that's a war crime, for which allies executed Nazis, and that presumably should get pro-lifers upset, since families might include pregnant women.
 

Antiwar

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Anybody know any of the outcomes of the "store owners" shooting at people during 'the ****ing police beat the hell out of Rodney King' riots?

Were any rioters shot/killed? Bystanders? "Store owners" arrested?
 

NatMorton

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I dont see preventing my business from being looted or burned as vigilante justice at all.

Being this law grants legal authority by definition it cannot be vigilante justice.
You may not see it that way, but when you take the law into your own hands, deciding who is guilty, who is not, and then shooting the guilty, you are, IMO, acting as a vigilante.

To your last point, yes, technically the law, if enacted, would be a deputization of a business owner to be investigator, prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. Thus it's not extra-legal in the way that actual vigilantes are, but it really isn't a meaningful distinction.
 

NatMorton

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Really how? Because some white guy won't support a black business or visa versa?
Broaden your perspective a bit and consider the full history of the human failing of racism. Do you really think it's limited to support of who owns what business?
 

JoeyJoystick

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When you are being killed by a violent attacker please at that moment understand that its precisely because of the above posted mindset that you are dying. Blame only yourself.

Easily one of the most unrealistic post I've ever read.

PS i wish zero harm and a lifetime of goodness for you. My post is for debate purposes only.
Hi Daddyo

I read back back a couple of your posts as well before just replying to this.

First of all; I applaud your self constraint! Well done mate!

I think you and I are much more alike than you realize. Yes I do not like violence. Neither do you. In your previous post you meticulously explained how you were prepared but did everything reasonably within your power to prevent the used of deadly force. And it worked out great for you. I wish more people were like that. And fortunately there are more people like that.

And like I described in a follow up post, but before your post, I would also defend myself. All I am saying s that we should always try to do everything we can to avoid the use of force and the use of violence. There is, however, a major difference in setting between you and me. It does not change the thinking behind it, but it changes the physical outcome.

Where I come from it is not allowed to have firearms other than in a very tightly controlled set of regulations. Nobody is allowed to carry a gun in the street full stop. If you own a gun you will be screened. You can only carry your gun in a locked case from and to the range. Bullets and weapon have to be physically separated and packed in different cases. Also inside your own house. You can not have guns on display in your own house. This has resulted in a low instance of use of guns in the streets.

Where you live it is fairly easy to buy a gun and a rather large proportion of the population has guns, owns guns, and would therefore use guns.

The bottom line is that you do not like violence as much as I do as you have shown in Florida.

All I am essentially saying is that we should try to avoid the use of violence as much as we can. And that the constitution in your country allows you to carry firearms and there is therefore a different baseline to start of from doesn't change the concept of what I tried to project.

And that is try not to use violence. And one of the reasons for doing so, is by taking away the reasons why people get angry and violent.

So the only part where I disagree with you is where you state that this is one of the most unrealistic posts you have ever read. Even though you admitted the comment is for debate purposes only. Lol.

Joey
 

zsu2357

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Hi Zsu,

Because of the election the Portland Riots are less in the news. Sorry to hear that this is still on-going.

But there is laws that prohibit this kind of violence right? Just arrest them and lock them up for a week. 2nd offense 3 month. 3rd offense 2 years.

Put cameras all over the place. They started doing this in London, UK because of the IRA back than. This is today a safe city and not much goes unnoticed. They can follow people on the street. They can zoom in the cameras and they can turn the cameras. If they want, they can follow you a long way. It is not full proof, but it has drastically reduced crime. At least in those areas where they have cameras.

And than people are going to complain about their privacy rights. But hey, you can't have it both ways. And besides, if you do not do anything wrong, you also don't have anything to worry about.


Joey
People in charge up there have no wish to do so. They got the cameras but they turn a blind eye.
 

zsu2357

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Holy cow, Daddyo! What a post! I'm so impressed by your bravery when it comes to defending your loved ones! And you have such a great attitude about it--where you hope you don't have to do anything but are willing to do it--which is the mark of a true hero. I'm just kind of floored. This is a good example of what I was saying in another thread a while back--"On a message board, you never know who you're talking to." Thanks for posting that, Daddyo!
Yes holy cow. Daddyo nailed it(y) and represents the way most gun owners are, you know the ones you don't hear about on the nightly or morning news. But the people that use a gun in a school shooting or a mall you hear about for days on end and how it was like the other one etc.
 

JoeyJoystick

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Yes holy cow. Daddyo nailed it(y) and represents the way most gun owners are, you know the ones you don't hear about on the nightly or morning news. But the people that use a gun in a school shooting or a mall you hear about for days on end and how it was like the other one etc.
Hi Zsu,

You're damn right that he did it well. And I am sure most gun owners are like that. Unfortunately it is always like that. A few rotten apples that ruin it for the rest.

Joey
 
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