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[W:256]What is a Liberal?

jimithyashford

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Re: What is a Liberal?

What it means to me, regardless of modern or local/national parlance?

Liberal social policy: let people do what they want.
Liberal economic policy: let people do what they want with their money.
Liberal foreign policy: the pursuit of global liberation.

For the philosophical cornerstones of this, see signature.

The big problem with letting people do what they want is that what a LOT of people WANT to do is, either deliberately or incidentally, extremely restrictive to the ability of other people to do what they want. Allowing as many people as possible to do what they want necessitates putting serious restrictions on some people doing what they want. This is true for both the Social and Economic pillars of your statement above.
 

JMaximus

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.

if you have collective , then whats the object of the group, to base things on the group not the individual.

collectivism is in contrast to individualism

That has nothing to do with anything I've been talking about.
 

Master PO

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Re: What is a Liberal?

That has nothing to do with anything I've been talking about.

your first posting which i replied to.

... or what is liberalism?

Anyone who reads my profile will see that I identify myself as "very liberal". But what does that mean?

What is a liberal?

For me, a liberal believes in:
  • the right of self determination, including
    • [*]democratic governance (not only that the government is determined democratically, but that the government exists democratically for the sole benefit of those who determine it - of the people, by the people, for the people,
    • nationhood as a means for protecting welfare and promoting collective goals,
    • the rights of people to improve their lives,
    • the right to be armed - or to possess the means, or access to the means, for protecting oneself,
    • freedom of speech and thought
  • individual equality under the law, dependent on
    • the predictable and fair application of laws (rule of law), especially the principle that laws only apply to (and by extension offer protections to) the people who determine those laws (part of 'fair application'),
    • indifference of the law to traits such as race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.
    • freedom of speech and thought
If this list looks short, it's that way on purpose: I am hungry.

Discuss.



democracy is collective and is in stark contrast to individualism

you stated "for the sole benefit of those who determine it"............excuse me......but the state governments have powers, if we pass laws based only on the people, then how do the state governments protect their powers from collective federal legislation that you want only to be in the interest of the people?
 
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ecofarm

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Re: What is a Liberal?

The big problem with letting people do what they want is that what a LOT of people WANT to do is, either deliberately or incidentally, extremely restrictive to the ability of other people to do what they want. Allowing as many people as possible to do what they want necessitates putting serious restrictions on some people doing what they want. This is true for both the Social and Economic pillars of your statement above.

They're not absolute. They're the principles of liberalism according to me (not according to modern parlance).
 

JMaximus

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Re: What is a Liberal?

... how do the state governments protect their powers from collective federal legislation that you want only to be in the interest of the people?

I don't know and I don't care. That has nothing to do with my position.
 

Master PO

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Re: What is a Liberal?

I don't know and I don't care. That has nothing to do with my position.

yes it does because you put forth that democratic government of the people should be the center of government.

democratic government is collective government which is opposed to individualism

added that you want only the people to have power, well the state governments have powers in our system of federalism, if only the voice of the people is heard in law making, how do the states protect their state powers?
 

TobyOne

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Hahahahaha.

liberal
ADJECTIVE

1Willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
‘liberal views towards divorce’

1.1 Favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.
‘liberal citizenship laws’

1.2 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform.
‘a liberal democratic state’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/liberal
 

TobyOne

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Re: What is a Liberal?

I honestly don't think any liberal is evil. They know not what they do. They've been brainwashed by media and the systemic corruption of ideas of the founding fathers. I suppose its just like islam. They think what they're doing or how they think is correct.

It was all summed up by the Gipper. Paraphrasing: "Its not that liberals are dumb <you can insert "evil" here> its just that everything they know is wrong.


Rank and file modern libs aren't inherently evil, just moronic dupes. The Democrat leadership? Evil (for the most part). Sorry. :shrug:
 

Grand Mal

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TobyOne

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Why would you bother posting an obviously wrong definition? Have you seen whats going on in Berkeley? 'n all.

Why would you bother? Considering how you're making yourself look 'n all.
 

Grand Mal

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Why would you bother posting an obviously wrong definition? Have you seen whats going on in Berkeley? 'n all.

Yeah. What's it got to do with liberals?
 

code1211

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Re: What is a Liberal?

... or what is liberalism?

Anyone who reads my profile will see that I identify myself as "very liberal". But what does that mean?

What is a liberal?

For me, a liberal believes in:
  • the right of self determination, including
    • democratic governance (not only that the government is determined democratically, but that the government exists democratically for the sole benefit of those who determine it - of the people, by the people, for the people,
    • nationhood as a means for protecting welfare and promoting collective goals,
    • the rights of people to improve their lives,
    • the right to be armed - or to possess the means, or access to the means, for protecting oneself,
    • freedom of speech and thought
  • individual equality under the law, dependent on
    • the predictable and fair application of laws (rule of law), especially the principle that laws only apply to (and by extension offer protections to) the people who determine those laws (part of 'fair application'),
    • indifference of the law to traits such as race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.
    • freedom of speech and thought
If this list looks short, it's that way on purpose: I am hungry.

Discuss.

To me, those are all admirable end goals.

The tactics used to accomplish them in the US today is what seems to define ethics, but not positions.

People who claim to be on both end of the US political spectrum endorse these very general ideas, condemn their opponents and recommend actions.

Taking one of your ideas:

"the predictable and fair application of laws (rule of law), especially the principle that laws only apply to (and by extension offer protections to) the people who determine those laws (part of 'fair application')"

This would demand that you like the appointment of strict constructionist judges and justices which is anathema to the modern day Liberal.

How do you square that with your self identification?
 

Grand Mal

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_Sal

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Mmmmm....

Judging from the stuff that has been written over the years here at DP, a liberal is someone who has a mental disorder that has never ever used a bar of soap. They hate Jesus but worship Gorge Soros and Mike Moore, and love all the gays -- even the ones that are more flaming than a pair of Richard Simmonds sequinned shorts. Despite being dependent on welfare, they all own luxuries like refrigerators and TVs. They own the media and that is why lefty politicians always win elections. They absolutely hate business, and have big hard-ons for rules and regulations and think women should be in a room other than the kitchen. The hate America, love commies and Muslims, and eat aborted fetuses on their morning toast. Sad!

:mrgreen:

and you thought you were being outrageous...alas

just see below

Lying, socialist, communist, christian-hating, white-man-hating, rich-hating, faggot loving, degenerates who want everything for free, want to ban every single firearm in the world, perverted sickos who want to destroy marriage and support NAMBLA as well as humping dead animals, think abortion should be a spectator sport on National television,
entitled, spoiled, drug addicted pot heads, hippies, .....

That's just off the top of my head.

I'd hate to see what kind of thoughts are rot...er perking in the bottom layer of your head
 

Eric7216

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Re: What is a Liberal?

I like your list and have no objections to it. It is classical liberalism that seems to no longer fit the more common modern definition of liberalism which in my mind is anti individual liberties and very authoritarian, statist, and regimented.
Freedom of speech means that people will be offended by discourse and that is ok. There will be "hate" and that is OK (as long as it is speech). Indifference of law to traits such as race, ethnicity, etc. means that there should not be laws that either favor or disfavor any such group. Of course such distinctions are very hard to make and there will be strong disagreements but they should not be dismissed as simply haters-a logical argument must be made.
 

Eric7216

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Re: What is a Liberal?

What it means to me, regardless of modern or local/national parlance?

Liberal social policy: let people do what they want.
Liberal economic policy: let people do what they want with their money.
Liberal foreign policy: the pursuit of global liberation.

For the philosophical cornerstones of this, see signature.

A liberal economic policy should understand the problem with the commons and understand that just because something is shared by all and no one is paying for it that a person can abuse it. Such as air, water, etc. A liberal economic policy should have some way of charging people who use public stuff.
A liberal foreign policy should assume that people in other countries have a right to work toward their own definitions of liberties. True liberties should embrace the possibility that some people like to live in a tight cohesive social structure. (As long as people have the freedom to leave.)
 

Eric7216

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Re: What is a Liberal?

To help those of you confused over differences between Liberals and Conservatives, I have provided a brief description of both.

Liberals:
-tip generously, wait longer between haircuts and lawn cuts, take life in stride, help strangers, put others ahead of themselves, spew love and peace, smile a lot, have an optimistic and inclusive attitude, make hard work look easy, and focus on the common welfare for the benefit of the most people.

Conservatives, on the other hand:
- have a stingy and judgmental nature, insist on conformity, focus on criticizing other people's values instead of their own, show strangers disdain, glorify themselves, spew hate and discord, frown a lot, have a pessimistic and exclusionary attitude, a sense of entitlement and couldn't give a rat's ass about the common welfare.

I can't say that I have not met liberals like that and conservatives like that but you should understand that you are grossly exaggerating. A lot of people who call themselves liberals absolutely hate anyone who disagrees with them and dehumanize them. Hillary claimed to be a liberal yet called people deplorables. The people protesting speakers at Berkeley apparently call themselves liberal or progressive yet clearly fit your definition of conservatives.
 

Middleground

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Re: What is a Liberal?

:mrgreen:

and you thought you were being outrageous...alas

just see below



I'd hate to see what kind of thoughts are rot...er perking in the bottom layer of your head



****ing Dragonfly alwaaaaaayyyyyyys has to one up me. Sad! :2razz:
 

Whythink

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Re: What is a Liberal?

I can't say that I have not met liberals like that and conservatives like that but you should understand that you are grossly exaggerating. A lot of people who call themselves liberals absolutely hate anyone who disagrees with them and dehumanize them. Hillary claimed to be a liberal yet called people deplorables. The people protesting speakers at Berkeley apparently call themselves liberal or progressive yet clearly fit your definition of conservatives.
Don't you believe the deplorable comment was aimed at the extremists (white nationalist) Trump supporter in an attempt to motivate her base?

Not an appropriate comment but I certainly don't believe she was talking about the average GOPer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Mithrae

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Re: What is a Liberal?

As I understand it, political liberalism of the 18th and much of the 19th centuries was quite rightly concerned primarily about the power of government to infringe on folks' freedom.

By the mid- to late 19th century and especially into the early 20th, the potential for folks' freedom to be curtailed by economic rather than purely political circumstances was becoming increasingly obvious and concerning. I think someone on the forum has an FDR quote in their signature noting that "necessitous men are not free men," or something to that effect. I'm sure many liberals don't really consider it in this light, but the simple fact is that private property by definition is a restriction of others' freedom. So if there were an extreme concentration of wealth and ownership in the hands of a few, the freedoms of the many by definition would be curtailed; so many places they can't sleep or grow food or make a living except (for the most part) as employees of larger businesses.

So the question then is how to balance the material success of the few against the freedom of the many, particularly given the inherently concentrative nature of our largely-capitalist economic models. That seems to be a question which many if not most who identify as conservative or right-wing don't even recognise as valid or problematic. So I think it's a pretty good starting point for defining modern liberalism: The recognition that freedom is not measured merely by the absence of specific legislative restrictions, but by the presence of real social security, development opportunities and potential for success (material or otherwise).

Ideas like public education, public healthcare, public infrastructure, welfare, progressive taxation and minimum wages all fit into that definition of liberalism. So do ideas like affirmative action, if a disadvantaged group might be helped by them (which is debatable). Full-blown state socialism by contrast would not fit into that definition of liberalism, since it infringes on the freedom and potential of all people.
 
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Eric7216

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Don't you believe the deplorable comment was aimed at the extremists (white nationalist) Trump supporter in an attempt to motivate her base?

Not an appropriate comment but I certainly don't believe she was talking about the average GOPer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Well, maybe in the same sense that Trump attempted to motivate his base by talking about illegal immigrants. He was called by many a hater because of that comment and rightfully so as it was a hateful comment. He should have been more selective. Hillary called half of the Trump supporters deplorable with "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" views. Do you think that there are 75 million white nationalists in the country? Or even 30 million? I used 75 million because only 40% voted (127 million out of 320 million) and 62 million voted for Trump so presumably many who didn't vote probably share those views, being children of such people and such.

Is there a reason NOT to call Hillary and Hillary's supporters hateful and xenophobic when they endorsed such a person? (Xenophobic does not mean simply people from other countries but also people who are perceived as strange.)
 

_Sal

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Re: What is a Liberal?

As I understand it, political liberalism of the 18th and much of the 19th centuries was quite rightly concerned primarily about the power of government to infringe on folks' freedom.

By the mid- to late 19th century and especially into the early 20th, the potential for folks' freedom to be curtailed by economic rather than purely political circumstances was becoming increasingly obvious and concerning. I think someone on the forum has an FDR quote in their signature noting that "necessitous men are not free men," or something to that effect. I'm sure many liberals don't really consider it in this light, but the simple fact is that private property by definition is a restriction of others' freedom. So if there were an extreme concentration of wealth and ownership in the hands of a few, the freedoms of the many by definition would be curtailed; so many places they can't sleep or grow food or make a living except (for the most part) as employees of larger businesses.

So the question then is how to balance the material success of the few against the freedom of the many, particularly given the inherently concentrative nature of our largely-capitalist economic models. That seems to be a question which many if not most who identify as conservative or right-wing don't even recognise as valid or problematic. So I think it's a pretty good starting point for defining modern liberalism: The recognition that freedom is not measured merely by the absence of specific legislative restrictions, but by the presence of real social security, development opportunities and potential for success (material or otherwise).

Ideas like public education, public healthcare, public infrastructure, welfare and progressive taxation all fit into that definition of liberalism. So do ideas like affirmative action, if a disadvantaged group might be helped by them (which is debatable). Full-blown state socialism by contrast would not fit into that definition of liberalism, since it infringes on the freedom and potential of all people.

:thumbs: nice post Mithrae
 

Whythink

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Well, maybe in the same sense that Trump attempted to motivate his base by talking about illegal immigrants. He was called by many a hater because of that comment and rightfully so as it was a hateful comment. He should have been more selective. Hillary called half of the Trump supporters deplorable with "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" views. Do you think that there are 75 million white nationalists in the country? Or even 30 million? I used 75 million because only 40% voted (127 million out of 320 million) and 62 million voted for Trump so presumably many who didn't vote probably share those views, being children of such people and such.

Is there a reason NOT to call Hillary and Hillary's supporters hateful and xenophobic when they endorsed such a person? (Xenophobic does not mean simply people from other countries but also people who are perceived as strange.)
I have never supported a candidate who I agreed with 100%.

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akyron

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Re: What is a Liberal?

To help those of you confused over differences between Liberals and Conservatives, I have provided a brief description of both.

Liberals:
-tip generously, wait longer between haircuts and lawn cuts, take life in stride, help strangers, put others ahead of themselves, spew love and peace, smile a lot, have an optimistic and inclusive attitude, make hard work look easy, and focus on the common welfare for the benefit of the most people.

Conservatives, on the other hand:
- have a stingy and judgmental nature, insist on conformity, focus on criticizing other people's values instead of their own, show strangers disdain, glorify themselves, spew hate and discord, frown a lot, have a pessimistic and exclusionary attitude, a sense of entitlement and couldn't give a rat's ass about the common welfare.

DC waitress overwhelmed by message, tip left by Trump supporters
DC waitress overwhelmed by message, tip left by Trump supporters | Fox News

“We may come from different cultures and may disagree on certain issues, but if everyone would share their smile and kindness like your beautiful smile, our country will come together as one people. Not race. Not gender. Just American. God Bless!"
 
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