• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:2475] Ariz. State Senate Hears Preliminary Audit Report

ElChupacabra

Me cago en las cabras!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
17,024
Reaction score
9,086
Location
The Garden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Those are significant numbers. You haven't shown any of that in relation to actual fraud, not just your personal feelings about how or why people vote.

You are older than me. Of course you've voted for more people in general than I have. Also, prior to the 1970s/1980s (which is when I was born), the Parties were very different. The Parties changed. So you telling me you voted for Democrats means zip.
I would bet none will be found by the Cyber Ninjas (🤭) either, at which point there will be some other deflection. The beauty of this con is it requires no evidence by those making the claim, so this will likely be used in the 2022 elections should they not go in favor of those currently using this tactic. The fact they can rely on nebulous claims and justify endless review of results on the possibility of malfeasance clearly indicates the weakness of that position and that it is only one to muddy the waters.

The big problem I see is that this approach will continue to undermine electoral processes not only here but throughout the world; other leaders abroad are and have used this same model to usurp the will of the voters and bog down elections simply because they cannot and will not admit defeat.
 

roguenuke

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
52,644
Reaction score
19,407
Location
Rolesville, NC
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I don't have to show a thing to you to have an opinion based upon history, facts, logic, and common sense none of which many of today's Democrats have

I have voted for MORE Democrats than you Republican, that appears to be a fact. You cannot explain how today's Democratic Party represents the values of JFK, "Ask not what your country can do for you,........" You said I hated Democrats and that is false, Your entitlement mentality and passion for liberalism is what destroys democracies when there is no discipline, no personal responsibility and the kind of attitude you have multiplied into 81 million
Like I said, you are also about twice as old as I am too, which means you've gone through about twice as many or more elections. Democrats of yesteryear are not the same as Democrats of today, particularly in the South, where I have always voted. I have voted for both Dems and Republicans when I've voted. I have no issue voting for a Republican that I consider moderate and reasonable. Trump does not at all fit that bill, and I will not vote for him or any Republican or other candidate that supports/supported him. That limits the choices, yes, but only for the last few elections.

You appear to hate Democrats here. You claim they have no common sense, logic, knowledge of history or facts, which is not only wrong and highly partisan, but also evidence that you don't like Democrats, a lot, and would not vote for them based on those beliefs. How is it different to not vote for someone, to vote against someone because you "don't like them a lot" and voting against someone because you "hate them"?

I don't feel that way about Republicans. I feel that way only about Trump and his supporters, that I do not like them, a lot, and would not vote for them as any sort of representative of mine.
 

ElChupacabra

Me cago en las cabras!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
17,024
Reaction score
9,086
Location
The Garden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I have never will any thing into existence but I know and we have seen it with Trump and his low IQ followers if you say something ( in Trumps case lie ) to people enough times they will believe it is true and is a fact
we can see that now with Trumps low IQ followers , that the election was stolen and there was mass voter fraud
doesn't matter if there is NO proof but they believe it because Trump told them that over and over
Have a nice afternoon
Yep, and it's a good example of how it works. If you believe something strongly enough, your self confidence becomes the selling point and not what you're selling.
;)

I've mentioned several times this tactic was also used in the 2016 election, except Trump had no issues with the result because they went his way. Now if some of the GOP posters here were honest, they would have been raising the same concerns given the narrow margins by which Trump won some states. There wasn't a peep then, but now when it didn't go their way, apparently the electoral system is in crisis.
🤭
 

bongsaway

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
24,954
Reaction score
13,051
Location
Flori-duh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
You are so right the alternative is trump and the private sector and the private sector and personal responsibility which seems to bother you a lot Florida voted for trump
You lost as soon as you used the phrase personal responsibility. We now know all the bullcrap slogans the gop has put forth for decades, means squat. They are not the party of family values, they are not the party of personal responsibility and their refusal to accept the election results proves that, they are not fiscally conservative, they have no integrity and are willing to do almost anything to win an election. I see nothing to be proud about to be a trump or gop supporter.
 

bongsaway

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
24,954
Reaction score
13,051
Location
Flori-duh
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Not going to waste any time because facts don't matter as long as you get the results you want. Audits aren't relevant either and a waste of time since there is no fraud because that is what you want to believe
Ok, after all the recounts and after the audits, what have they proven? Seems to me the people who keep insisting the election was stolen still have zero proof. I suggest every voter in america gets hooked up to a lie detector and asked who they voted for and all of it should be overseen by republicans only. Would that make you guys happy?
 

Tbird19482

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
4,598
Reaction score
1,797
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Yep, and it's a good example of how it works. If you believe something strongly enough, your self confidence becomes the selling point and not what you're selling.
;)

I've mentioned several times this tactic was also used in the 2016 election, except Trump had no issues with the result because they went his way. Now if some of the GOP posters here were honest, they would have been raising the same concerns given the narrow margins by which Trump won some states. There wasn't a peep then, but now when it didn't go their way, apparently the electoral system is in crisis.
🤭
Well like I have asked them several times Trump kept repeating over and over again that the 2016 ( and 2020 ) elections were " RIGGED " and his followers believe it
well if he knew that they were " Rigged " BEFORE the elections were even held HOW did he know it and did he know WHO " Rigged " them and was it him ?
and one more thing if he knew they were rigged isn't he breaking the law by not turning those people in ?
I guess it would be foolish of him to turn himself in IF it was him
But if it was and he knows who did it he should turn them in
Have a nice afternoon
 

ElChupacabra

Me cago en las cabras!
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
17,024
Reaction score
9,086
Location
The Garden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well like I have asked them several times Trump kept repeating over and over again that the 2016 ( and 2020 ) elections were " RIGGED " and his followers believe it
well if he knew that they were " Rigged " BEFORE the elections were even held HOW did he know it and did he know WHO " Rigged " them and was it him ?
I'd say the more pertinent question is why the assumption is/was that cheating was only possible on one side. That's been another of the comically flawed aspects of these claims. If Trump were consistent in this belief, he would have initiated an audit process in the states where the margins were very thin; or if wouldn't have then he wouldn't have objected Clinton from doing so. The thing is, he gladly accepted the results of that "rigged" election because what this is really about is not being able to concede defeat.

and one more thing if he knew they were rigged isn't he breaking the law by not turning those people in ?
I guess it would be foolish of him to turn himself in IF it was him
But if it was and he knows who did it he should turn them in
Have a nice afternoon
I don't think he ever had any idea of there being specific people behind any of it; his premise relies on not being able to conceive defeat.
 

element94

Union Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
6,392
Reaction score
2,722
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Ok, after all the recounts and after the audits, what have they proven? Seems to me the people who keep insisting the election was stolen still have zero proof. I suggest every voter in america gets hooked up to a lie detector and asked who they voted for and all of it should be overseen by republicans only. Would that make you guys happy?
Nope, it wouldn't, but apparently looking ridiculous makes them ecstatic. Biden is in the WH, the Trumpublicans have shown no proof of fraud that would even come anywhere close to changing anything, no one of any consequence believes a word of it, it's OVER!
 

Conservative

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
113,337
Reaction score
10,369
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Like I said, you are also about twice as old as I am too, which means you've gone through about twice as many or more elections. Democrats of yesteryear are not the same as Democrats of today, particularly in the South, where I have always voted. I have voted for both Dems and Republicans when I've voted. I have no issue voting for a Republican that I consider moderate and reasonable. Trump does not at all fit that bill, and I will not vote for him or any Republican or other candidate that supports/supported him. That limits the choices, yes, but only for the last few elections.

You appear to hate Democrats here. You claim they have no common sense, logic, knowledge of history or facts, which is not only wrong and highly partisan, but also evidence that you don't like Democrats, a lot, and would not vote for them based on those beliefs. How is it different to not vote for someone, to vote against someone because you "don't like them a lot" and voting against someone because you "hate them"?

I don't feel that way about Republicans. I feel that way only about Trump and his supporters, that I do not like them, a lot, and would not vote for them as any sort of representative of mine.
Your comment was I hated Democrats, that is a lie, the rest of your post is BS
 

Conservative

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
113,337
Reaction score
10,369
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Ok, after all the recounts and after the audits, what have they proven? Seems to me the people who keep insisting the election was stolen still have zero proof. I suggest every voter in america gets hooked up to a lie detector and asked who they voted for and all of it should be overseen by republicans only. Would that make you guys happy?
Regardless, there is no excuse for failing to go to the polls and the chain of custody of mail in ballots remains a problem. You got what you wanted therefore nothing else matters, hope you are happy with someone else paying for your personal responsibility issues
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
28,230
Reaction score
11,685
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Regardless, there is no excuse for failing to go to the polls and the chain of custody of mail in ballots remains a problem. You got what you wanted therefore nothing else matters, hope you are happy with someone else paying for your personal responsibility issues

I know you dislike mail in ballots for the majority of voters. You have stated there are legitimate uses of mail in ballots (ex: military over seas / not stationed in their home State). Mail in voting has been used in the US for many years without major issues.

My question have you always objected to mail in voting?

Why do you accept the preliminary findings presented by Logan in the briefing?
 

jakiejakester

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
4,371
Reaction score
1,784
Location
UWS Manhattan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
People voting out of hatred and ignorance staying home don't deserve to have their vote counted. Never in my life have I had a President that I hated so much that it cost me to vote for the other candidate. How anyone can vote for the Biden/Harris resume is beyond comprehension
Is there a more Un-American statement than what I highlighted that you wrote? "Don't deserve to have their vote counted." What you're doing is setting a standard for voting, AKA a LITERACY TEST which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and was banned in the Voting Rights Act. I'm 99% certain that you would prefer that only White people be allowed to vote and it seems that allowing EVERYONE to vote brings out your deeply rooted rage and hate for any American who disagrees with you. One could argue that you don't deserve to have your vote counted based on your biases but even you are protected by the Voting Rights Act...
 

jakiejakester

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
4,371
Reaction score
1,784
Location
UWS Manhattan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
You still miss the point completely, it was about 160,000 votes in 5 states that cost Trump the electoral college and all those votes came from major cities run by Democrats. 39 of the top 50 most populated cities are run by Democrats and have been for decades. You going to ever answer the question as to which is more susceptible to fraud, mail in ballots or in person voting? If you cannot get to the polls during early voting, qualify for an official absentee ballots, go to the polls on election day to make your voice heard it doesn't deserve to be heard
As you do with economic numbers you slice the election results to create a false narrative. Biden won Michigan by 155K votes alone...so you're BS 160K total is a ruse. Trump's victory was smaller in key states than Biden's and you called Trump's victory a "landslide." Hypocrisy = Conservative.

You pretend to respect the Constitution. Pretend? Yes because you only respect the parts you agree with and HATE anything or anyone who dares to disagree with you. The anger in your posts are so evident, so filled with rage that it seems that you're incapable of being objective about anything.
 

jakiejakester

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
4,371
Reaction score
1,784
Location
UWS Manhattan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Didn't need significant numbers just about 200,000 out of 160,000,000 to offset the deadbeats, radicals, hate mongering, entitlement minded brats living in the basement watching soap operas.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Hate mongering? Is there anyone who promotes hate mongering more than your posts do? Deadbeats? Newsflash! Deadbeats are allowed to vote. Radicals are allowed to vote. Entitlement brats (whatever that is) are allowed to vote. Soap Operas? WTF! As Oprah would say:

"You get a vote! You get a vote! You get a vote!"
 

jakiejakester

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
4,371
Reaction score
1,784
Location
UWS Manhattan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
How can anyone look and listen to Biden and say Trump has a mental problem?
Actually, Trump DOES have a mental illness and it's documented:


"And countless experts have already done so: They have commented on Trump’s alleged paranoid, sadistic, and psychopathic tendencies; diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder; and suggested he might suffer from neurological conditions like dementia and Alzheimer’s disease. Naturally, many have questioned his fitness to serve as the President of the United States.

Over 70,000 health professionals even signed a petition, saying “Donald Trump manifests a
serious mental illness that renders him psychologically incapable of competently discharging the duties of President of the United States.”
You still miss the point completely, it was about 160,000 votes in 5 states that cost Trump the electoral college and all those votes came from major cities run by Democrats. 39 of the top 50 most populated cities are run by Democrats and have been for decades.
LOL! Your posts read like your vote counts for more than anyone else's. It doesn't! All those vote from major cities count just as much as your bizarre vote does. The problem you have is that there are far more votes for Democrats in cities than Republicans which means your side loses elections...one person...one vote!
 

rahl

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
1,623
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Misunderstanding a thing and refuting it are two very different things.

So far, all you have done is misunderstand.
Nope. Directly refuted your claim.
 

rahl

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
1,623
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
My point was that the poster who claimed that the tax cuts reduced Federal revenues was wrong on the facts.

What other point could my words have been citing?
Tax cuts always reduce revenue. Basic math. If you collect something at 30% and then change that to 22%, you will as a matter of mathematical certainty, collect less than had you been collecting at 30%.
 

rahl

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
1,623
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Every word you post here is the result of dogmatic parroting of propaganda or outright lies.

The 2016 economy was flattening. The Obama Recovery did not start until the recession had ended in June 2009. Following that, the economy did not get back to pre-recession levels until 2013.

The Great Recession was the result of every relaxation of the Post Depression Banking rules since 1932. The last major blow to these was signed by Clinton completely ending the Glass-Steagall legislation of the 30's.

The Tax program from Trump did a variety of things including repatriating more than $1 Trillion from off shore banks. My taxes were reduced by 20% year over year.

Median household Income, employment by all demographics, wages and inflation were all doing very well. Not so much anymore.

The words you like to use and accurate facts are not related in any way.
Nothing in your post is correct. Every single economic metric was on the same unchanging trend line from 2010 until the pandemic. Trump did nothing but ride Obama’s economic cost tails, while EXPLODING the deficit and debt at a faster rate than did obama. We did not repatriat a trillion dollars
 

Colin Norris

Suspended
Joined
Jun 29, 2021
Messages
868
Reaction score
241
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
No, according to you it is democracy but democracy isn't about making it easy to vote, democracy is about having conviction and going to the polls to have your voice heard. You call Trump incompetent and voted for Biden/Harris? do you know the difference between a career public servant who made millions off the public dole and someone from the outside who actually ran a business. There is nothing in Trump's record that was incompetent including his Covid19 response which you still hold him accountable for ignoring basic civics and the 10th Amendment. How can anyone look and listen to Biden and say Trump has a mental problem?

You still miss the point completely, it was about 160,000 votes in 5 states that cost Trump the electoral college and all those votes came from major cities run by Democrats. 39 of the top 50 most populated cities are run by Democrats and have been for decades. You going to ever answer the question as to which is more susceptible to fraud, mail in ballots or in person voting? If you cannot get to the polls during early voting, qualify for an official absentee ballots, go to the polls on election day to make your voice heard it doesn't deserve to be heard

All that is embroidery. The fact remains, Biden won democratically and you sooks are still crying into your MAGA hats hoping for a miracle to turn it around.

There was no fraud and no amount of whining will change that. The small discrepancies to not equate to changing the result. It's far too convenient to assume massive fraud when Biden wins but you said nothing when trump won. Did you all call for audits then? Don't insult me.
Trump was defeated by disgruntled republicans who changed their vote to Democrat. That is shown in the stats but you refuse to believe it.
Forget audits. Concentrate of convincing them to vote for trump again. Good luck with that
 

Conservative

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
113,337
Reaction score
10,369
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I know you dislike mail in ballots for the majority of voters. You have stated there are legitimate uses of mail in ballots (ex: military over seas / not stationed in their home State). Mail in voting has been used in the US for many years without major issues.

My question have you always objected to mail in voting?

Why do you accept the preliminary findings presented by Logan in the briefing?
Yes, and I know that people like you love that entitlement mentality believing voting should be easier, it should be more responsible. Mail in voting should be limited to official absentee ballots but you got the outcome you wanted therefore the fact that 46% of the people mailed in their ballots still doesn't resonate that those votes were susceptible to fraud. Voted for 50 years and YES, always voted in person and have no use for no excuse mail in ballots, official absentee ballots are fine. If I hated someone as much as the left hated Trump I would have spent all night at the polling locations to cast my vote. As it was record numbers of mail in ballots were generate many out of hatred and the Democratic Party scare tactics. I voted early and it was well protected and clean
 

Conservative

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
113,337
Reaction score
10,369
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
All that is embroidery. The fact remains, Biden won democratically and you sooks are still crying into your MAGA hats hoping for a miracle to turn it around.

There was no fraud and no amount of whining will change that. The small discrepancies to not equate to changing the result. It's far too convenient to assume massive fraud when Biden wins but you said nothing when trump won. Did you all call for audits then? Don't insult me.
Trump was defeated by disgruntled republicans who changed their vote to Democrat. That is shown in the stats but you refuse to believe it.
Forget audits. Concentrate of convincing them to vote for trump again. Good luck with that
As I have pointed out over and over again, I DO NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING OTHER THAN EARLY VOTING, OFFICIAL ABSENTEE BALLOTS, AND ELECTION Day. If you hated Trump so much spend the night at the polling stations be the first one in and cast your ballot. stop making excuses for staying home. No disgruntled Republicans would ever vote for Biden, they would have stayed home, There is no justification ever for anyone to vote for Biden and in particular a ticked with Harris on it.
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
28,230
Reaction score
11,685
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Yes, and I know that people like you love that entitlement mentality believing voting should be easier, it should be more responsible. Mail in voting should be limited to official absentee ballots but you got the outcome you wanted therefore the fact that 46% of the people mailed in their ballots still doesn't resonate that those votes were susceptible to fraud. Voted for 50 years and YES, always voted in person and have no use for no excuse mail in ballots, official absentee ballots are fine. If I hated someone as much as the left hated Trump I would have spent all night at the polling locations to cast my vote. As it was record numbers of mail in ballots were generate many out of hatred and the Democratic Party scare tactics. I voted early and it was well protected and clean
wow, just wow. Simple questions with such a verbose response.
I find it interesting that my fellow Republicans did a very good job in setting up mail in voting in Arizona and you are attacking them. I find it interesting that is was not till the results of the 2020 election that some started to complain about mail in voting.

It is well known your hatred for the left. It seems to spill over to Republicans who do not share your view on voting.

What Logan presented at the briefing was misleading, speculate and playing to the what if game.
- No evidence the voting system was hooked to the internet. Past technical audits proved that they were not connected.
- Misrepresenting data files V32 and V33.

At least Logan released who is really funding the Cyber Ninjas "audit". I am not surprised. Bet those big donors expect certain findings for their money.
 

rahl

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
1,623
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
As I have pointed out over and over again, I DO NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING OTHER THAN EARLY VOTING, OFFICIAL ABSENTEE BALLOTS, AND ELECTION Day. If you hated Trump so much spend the night at the polling stations be the first one in and cast your ballot. stop making excuses for staying home. No disgruntled Republicans would ever vote for Biden, they would have stayed home, There is no justification ever for anyone to vote for Biden and in particular a ticked with Harris on it.
Nobody gives a shit what you support lol
 

TomFitz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
11,948
Reaction score
7,745
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Every word you post here is the result of dogmatic parroting of propaganda or outright lies.

The 2016 economy was flattening. The Obama Recovery did not start until the recession had ended in June 2009. Following that, the economy did not get back to pre-recession levels until 2013.

The Great Recession was the result of every relaxation of the Post Depression Banking rules since 1932. The last major blow to these was signed by Clinton completely ending the Glass-Steagall legislation of the 30's.

The Tax program from Trump did a variety of things including repatriating more than $1 Trillion from off shore banks. My taxes were reduced by 20% year over year.

Median household Income, employment by all demographics, wages and inflation were all doing very well. Not so much anymore.

The words you like to use and accurate facts are not related in any way.



The 2016 economy was flattening. The Obama Recovery did not start until the recession had ended in June 2009. Following that, the economy did not get back to pre-recession levels until 2013.”

And? June 2009 just happens to roughly coincide with the passing of the Obama stimulous bill. From that day on the GOP blocked every single effort to do a second package. Instead they staged a series of government shutdowns and filibusters, to throw sand in the gears of the Obama Administration’s fiscal efforts. That delayed and insured a slow recovery.

“The Great Recession was the result of every relaxation of the Post Depression Banking rules since 1932. The last major blow to these was signed by Clinton completely ending the Glass-Steagall legislation of the 30's.”

The legislation you referred to was the Graham Leach Bliely act. It’s architect was Phil Graham, who the GOP viewed as an economic genius. This was his next effort after pushing the Commodites Futures Modernization Act through Congress during the Bush Administration. These, GOP backed, WAll Street engineered pieces of legislation laid the groundwork for the crash. Clinton was wrong to sign the Graham Leach Bliely Act. I thought so at the time. I still think it was one of his biggest mistakes. But there is no question that both bills wer GOP products.

”The Tax program from Trump did a variety of things including repatriating more than $1 Trillion from off shore banks. My taxes were reduced by 20% year over year”

I don’t know how you make your money, so I can’t comment on that. You forgot the metion that the Trump cabal barely tried to hide the fact taht the bill was a gift to Wall Street was financed 100% with borrowed money.
 

Ishm

Active member
Joined
Jul 5, 2021
Messages
389
Reaction score
249
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Something that seems to get lost in these Obama/Trump comparisons is that the slower growth later in Obama's term was based on reduced deficits. Trump doubled the deficit spending and the economy grew more. There was no magic involved, just more govt stimulus.

What the real message is from this is that once you remove govt stimulus the underlying growth is slower than people expect. Productivity growth, population growth, export growth combined aren't hitting the numbers people think the US needs, so they top up gdp growth with increased internal consumption by throwing borrowed money at the economy in handouts, infrastructure etc spending, or unaffordable tax cuts. Who gets the extra money depends on which process is used to distribute it, but it's all very short term as it requires ever increasing borrowing.

It's one story to spend like that in the short term to aid an economic recovery, but a different story when a govt does this just to try and maintain growth levels that aren't supported by the real fundamentals. It's lazy, and dangerous, governing, that will eventually cause economic failure.
 
Top Bottom