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[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

Quag

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Oh brother. Declaring war within a couple of days is imediately. The whole point of all of this was to suggest the world did not know a big war was breaking out in Europe when Germany invaded Poland. Obviously it did since war was declared right away by the two other major European powers.
O bother you seem to be very poor at English Ivan
I said not quite immediately I didnt say it took a long time
Immediately would have been the moment Germany invaded
 

Quag

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You're finally making some sense, so congrats. Make enough vacuous posts and one will strike gold eh.

The period September 1939 when the Nazis conquered Poland to April 1940 when no serious fighting occurred was called the "Phony War."

The Phoney War​

In French drole de guerre
“Sitzkrieg”
in German

The Phoney War took place between September 1939 to April 1940 and was the English term used for the 6 months prior to the start of the war. This was following the Blitzkrieg attack on Poland which is claimed to have started World War 2. It was a conflict ultimately run by civil servants as opposed to the troops of Britain and France. The period was seen as a confusing one for those who lived in Britain as they expected a war at any time.

By the Spring of 1940 it is estimated that millions of people decided that the war wasn’t going to happen and they began walking the streets without gas masks. The fear of the impending war began to subside. This however was short lived when suddenly on 9th April 1940 the war began again. On 10 May 1940, eight months after Britain and France had declared war on Germany, German troops marched into Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, marking the end of the Phoney War.



German General officer opinions about the Phoney War




April 9th 1940 Germany invaded Norway for its oil and stuff so the British sent troops they soon withdrew because the Germans outnumbered 'em -- by a lot. There were some Naval skirmishes too, to include a small battle with RN that the Kriegsmarine pulled out of before it was too late for 'em. Wehrmacht also invaded Denmark for its ports.

There's also this:

The invasion of Poland led half a dozen countries to declare war on Germany -- Australia, Canada, South Africa, and New Zealand were all too far away to have an immediate impact. Only Britain and France were in a position to have an impact on the fighting. Despite their previous reassurances they didn’t leap to defend Poland. They had no troops in the area at the time and hadn’t yet mustered the political will or military capacity to begin sending any. The Poles pleaded with the British to bomb German air bases, but the British refused. They feared that if they bombed the Germans before the Germans bombed them, they might alienate the Americans. Though they weren’t ready to bomb the Germans, the British government did send its planes. Over the course of September, British bombers dropped over 18 million propaganda leaflets across Germany, in what former army officer and Conservative MP Edward Spears mockingly labeled a “confetti war.”


I myself wouldn't say Ukraine today is Poland then but NATO seems to be thinking about upscaling its force strength and readiness. NATO air forces are already in the skies over member states bordering Russia, both intelligence and fighter aircraft 24/7. So neither is NATO Britain and France back then. Then again I wouldn't necessarily say Putin is Hitler but I wouldn't deny it either. All indications are not good though.
Bs he isnt making sense. If the term used was nearly immediately or quickly we wouldn't be having this inane conversation
 
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Juks

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After the meeting between Erdogan and Putin Yesterday Russia and Turkey promise to strengthen political and economic cooperation According to the Kremlin, the cooperation includes expanded trade and cooperation in energy, transport, agriculture, tourism and construction

 

Juks

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Well, wasn't going to publish this, but the ears are really different...


 

Rogue Valley

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Published on August 5.



According to Pavlo Kyrylenko, the head of the Donetsk regional military administration, Ukraine forces control Pisky, Slovyansk, and Kramatorsk.

It looks like the Russians may have decided to bypass Avdiivka.









FZbxjMnWYAEDii4
 

Juks

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The article comes to the same conclusion as I did after reading the report:
"The problem of course is not the making of these allegations, which need to be made – and made clearly – if the evidence establishes them to be true. That is the role of Amnesty International, often played to great effect. But in this instance, Amnesty International’s methodology is not only unclear, but considers little to none of the military or humanitarian context essential to any reasoned view of what was (or was not) necessary in the prevailing military context.

In these circumstances, regrettably, Amnesty International’s conclusions drift into anecdote and speculation dressed up as incontrovertible facts and violations of IHL.
"


The most important paragraph in the article is though:

"To the contrary, as Russian propagandists now celebrate and add another excuse for targeting civilians to their ever-growing list, allegations such as these may well lead to less protection, not more."
 

anatta

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Amnesty has lost senior people who were against the report. AI ****ed up
does that diminish their reportage? when we were itching to bomb Qadaffi (2011) there were all kinds of "atrocities" reported
and the western press swallowed them all hook line and sinker
Amnesty investigated - even had officials go to Libya to see if Qadaffi was using "Viagra rape" as a weapon of war
(The accusation that Viagra had been distributed to Gaddafi's troops to encourage them to rape women in rebel areas)
that Susan Rice and Hillary were crowing about / I tend to believe Amnesty

NATO leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since February 15 claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them.

It also found indications that on several occasions Benghazi rebels appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.
 

Juks

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does that diminish their reportage?
No, but the lack of facts and account of circumstances are.

As a sidenote:

Here is an old but good article with analyse of problems due to set up within those organisations.


From the article:
". Instead of focusing on the horrific violations of dictatorships and terrorist regimes, or the daily harassment in Putin’s Russia and Xi’s China, human rights groups tend to devote major resources to investigating Western democracies. This is, admittedly, easier for the investigators — they are not going to get poisoned, shot, arrested or expelled — and generates higher levels of visibility through media coverage, but avoids the most serious violations and war crimes in our world today. The misplaced priorities also reflect a political ideology known as post-colonialism, which tends to hold the West as primarily responsible for most of our global ills."

And it even mention the person who is very much topical in relation to the Ukraine report:

Agnes Callamard, incoming head of Amnesty and formerly special rapporteur for the UN Human Rights Council, called the killing of Soleimani, who was responsible for thousands of deaths in Syria, and for attacks on Israel, “arbitrary”.


As a sidenote, she has also accused Shimon Perres for ordering the murder of Yasser Arafat. By al accounts Arafat died from natural circumstances and was not murdered.

And as I said in my initial post on the subject: It is al about publicity and rendering more funds for the organisation.
 

W_Heisenberg

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The most important paragraph in the article is though:

"To the contrary, as Russian propagandists now celebrate and add another excuse for targeting civilians to their ever-growing list, allegations such as these may well lead to less protection, not more."

 

anatta

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No, but the lack of facts and account of circumstances are.

As a sidenote:

Here is an old but good article with analyse of problems due to set up within those organisations.


From the article:
". Instead of focusing on the horrific violations of dictatorships and terrorist regimes, or the daily harassment in Putin’s Russia and Xi’s China, human rights groups tend to devote major resources to investigating Western democracies. This is, admittedly, easier for the investigators — they are not going to get poisoned, shot, arrested or expelled — and generates higher levels of visibility through media coverage, but avoids the most serious violations and war crimes in our world today. The misplaced priorities also reflect a political ideology known as post-colonialism, which tends to hold the West as primarily responsible for most of our global ills."

And it even mention the person who is very much topical in relation to the Ukraine report:

Agnes Callamard, incoming head of Amnesty and formerly special rapporteur for the UN Human Rights Council, called the killing of Soleimani, who was responsible for thousands of deaths in Syria, and for attacks on Israel, “arbitrary”.


As a sidenote, she has also accused Shimon Perres for ordering the murder of Yasser Arafat. By al accounts Arafat died from natural circumstances and was not murdered.

And as I said in my initial post on the subject: It is al about publicity and rendering more funds for the organisation.
looks more like editorializing is what bothers you. I expect that from LW humanitarianists
their reportage is solid, unless you think Ukraine is not using civilian infrastructure as a "shield"?

Like I mentioned about Libya as well, if it wern't for Amnesty "Viagra rape" would be the meme
 

JANFU

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While better than nothing, its really the same old story with the Biden administration. For three months Ukraine supporters have waited for an opportunity to push the Russians out, to turn the war distinctly in their favor. For almost as many months military observers and intelligence agencies have predicted aa moment to strike, when Russian forces are battered and exhausted, before they can replenish their substantial losses. And yet, when that moment arrived once more the administration pulls back and saves Putin from being severely punished.

When most needed to exploit Russia's weakness, the talk of more HIMARS or M270s or anything else suddenly dies. The administration has admitted that it could easily supply up to 16 more without consideration of its effect on inventory, and with over a 1000 M270s produced there isn't close to a shortage of those yet...yet...another untimely obstruction by the Biden cadre.

When I first noticed this behavior, a friend of mine was certain this could only be explained by Biden's festering hostility over Hunter's troubles and/or by his desire to save his failing negotiations with Iran by not alienating Putin so much as to scuttle them.

That seemed to be a rather cynical view to me, and I told him that one should not attribute to malice that which may be more easily explained as a case of political stupidity. For many weeks I held out the prospect that these inexplicable and timely sabotages of Ukraine by the administration were more of a product of Biden's growing senility and lack of grasp, or bad advisors, than anything else.

Yet, now one can almost believe that Biden and/or his staff are more than useful idiots, more like Putin's agents of influence to cripple and slow decisive aide to Ukraine. From the outset many of them have publicly roared like lions, only to secretly decide as a 'no we can't to that' lobby. How is it they constantly finding reasons not to facilitate the transfer of planes (which has proceeded without them by other allies), resisted sending heavy weapons, and refused strategic missiles to eliminate Russian supply hubs and rail lines?

This can no longer be excused or explained by innocent dumbness. The can be no excuse for a nation with 550 HIMARS and over 1000 M270s that a paltry 16 launchers is our "best effort". That is shameful bull excrement.

This is not the result of some innocent act of incompetence, its an unspoken administration policy designed to keep Ukraine bleeding. It's goal is now clear: Putin and Russia cannot have its ego damaged, Putin and Russia shouldn't suffer as Ukraine has suffered, Putin and Russia must be given some major territorial gifts and we must provide a fragile peace that Putin may exploit later.

Thankfully, those of us who support Ukraine are catching on:


The Hill
The Hill

"Mr. President, take the winning shot in Ukraine already​

Opinion by Jonathan Sweet and Mark Toth, Opinion Contributor - Wednesday​
Russian President Vladimir Putin and his military forces in Donbas and Kherson are running on empty, and the Biden administration once again has entangled itself in escalation paralysis, unwilling to seize the initiative needed to deliver a knockout blow to Russian troops in Ukraine. Seemingly fearful of forcing the Kremlin into a decisive endgame, President Biden is playing for a European football-style of a tie: win if you can, but primarily focus on not losing. That kind of “wait and see” approach can work in a soccer match given a hard time limit; however, in Ukraine where there is no clock, it could be a recipe for turning the conflict into a “forever war.”​
Ammo for HIMARS is 1 of the main issues.
 

Tangmo

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No, but the lack of facts and account of circumstances are.

As a sidenote:

Here is an old but good article with analyse of problems due to set up within those organisations.


From the article:
". Instead of focusing on the horrific violations of dictatorships and terrorist regimes, or the daily harassment in Putin’s Russia and Xi’s China, human rights groups tend to devote major resources to investigating Western democracies. This is, admittedly, easier for the investigators — they are not going to get poisoned, shot, arrested or expelled — and generates higher levels of visibility through media coverage, but avoids the most serious violations and war crimes in our world today. The misplaced priorities also reflect a political ideology known as post-colonialism, which tends to hold the West as primarily responsible for most of our global ills."

And it even mention the person who is very much topical in relation to the Ukraine report:

Agnes Callamard, incoming head of Amnesty and formerly special rapporteur for the UN Human Rights Council, called the killing of Soleimani, who was responsible for thousands of deaths in Syria, and for attacks on Israel, “arbitrary”.


As a sidenote, she has also accused Shimon Perres for ordering the murder of Yasser Arafat. By al accounts Arafat died from natural circumstances and was not murdered.

And as I said in my initial post on the subject: It is al about publicity and rendering more funds for the organisation.
Indeed, Julian Assange Syndicate with Amnesty International.

Assange criticized democracies almost exclusively and almost always the United States. Assange said blatantly and always with a smirk democracies are easier to criticize because we're wide open in contrast to dictatorships.

Assange was rewarded by his BFF Putin with an antiAmerican talk show on Moscow tv that was broadcast nationally. When the traitor Snowden defected to Hong Kong, Beijing with the moderate Hu JinTao as leader told Snowden to get out for fear of the United States....Wikileaks flew in to take Snowden to Moscow where he remains on a perpetual visa ordered up by Putin himself.

Neither Assange nor Putin nor Amnesty International are getting all this and more past anyone over here.
 

Juks

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Indeed, Julian Assange Syndicate with Amnesty International.

Assange criticized democracies almost exclusively and almost always the United States. Assange said blatantly and always with a smirk democracies are easier to criticize because we're wide open in contrast to dictatorships.

Assange was rewarded by his BFF Putin with an antiAmerican talk show on Moscow tv that was broadcast nationally. When the traitor Snowden defected to Hong Kong, Beijing with the moderate Hu JinTao as leader told Snowden to get out for fear of the United States....Wikileaks flew in to take Snowden to Moscow where he remains on a perpetual visa ordered up by Putin himself.

Neither Assange nor Putin nor Amnesty International are getting all this and more past anyone over here.
Well I don't agree with you when it comes to whistleblowers like Snowden and for that matter Assange. I think they are a very important part of our society and if we didn't have them the risk of state agencies and services turned into a self runed dictatorship within the government together with the corruption would be much bigger. The risk for civil citizens being persecuted would sky rocket. Planted evidence of crimes towards politicians that don’t support the leadership of said agency? Children being taken from parents for insufficient reasons? Elderly not receiving care they are entitled to?



Any and al democracies need them.
 

iguanaman

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Today Erdogan is meeting Putin Sochi.


They say that they should talk further about the recently signed grain agreement. But there are also other issues that Erdogan wants to raise, among other things it is about Turkey wanting to do another military operation against the kurds that worked with US in northern Syria and for that they need Russia's approval. The energy issue may also possibly be discussed. Turkey is dependent on Russian natural gas and earlier this year there was supposed to be a stop in the supply. I am writing this because there is a wildcard that may come up. Russia may inquire for Turkish drones (rumours) .
Turkey is already sending drones to the Ukraine army and the company that makes them wants to build a factory in Ukraine too.

https://www.ft.com/content/7529a862-7928-4b4e-a4c5-b2f50747d1f6
 

iguanaman

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Well I don't agree with you when it comes to whistleblowers like Snowden and for that matter Assange. I think they are a very important part of our society and if we didn't have them the risk of state agencies and services turned into a self runed dictatorship within the government together with the corruption would be much bigger. The risk for civil citizens being persecuted would sky rocket. Planted evidence of crimes towards politicians that don’t support the leadership of said agency? Children being taken from parents for insufficient reasons? Elderly not receiving care they are entitled to?



Any and al democracies need them.
Wikileaks is an arm of the Russian spy agency and only release material that is beneficial to Russia. You might find that "important" but that is because you are a Putin fanboy.
 

Yakshi

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Wikileaks is an arm of the Russian spy agency and only release material that is beneficial to Russia. You might find that "important" but that is because you are a Putin fanboy.

You may both have a reasonable disagreement about Assange and Wikileaks, but Juks is not a Putin fanboy. He has been a great poster in this thread.
 

JANFU

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They know whats coming
 

maxparrish

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Ammo for HIMARS is 1 of the main issues.

Does it no seem peculiar to you that if the US has produced 1200 M270s and 550 HIMARS (this does not included licensed production the other NATO countries) then mathematically it means there are not less than 2950 loaded MRLS pods x 6 rockets each. That 17,700 rockets for just one load of all pods, which means 1 load and 2 reloads if one assumes there are only 50,000 guided rockets produced to date (the other 100 of thousands unguided ones being retired?).

In other words, has the US has been so negligent to produce massive numbers of launchers with perhaps only ONE DAY of ammunition for each? And no one is screaming that is is a military disaster why isn't someone should accountable for such near criminally negligent munitions planning?

I am saying that if you can't even supply 30 or 40 HIMARS out of 1700 systems, we might be advised to start some court martials and tell the American people the truth. In the meantime, by all means ration the supply of ammo. But don't ration delivery systems. Even 32 HIMARS distributed over several threatened weapons sectors, and a number of them for an offensive is invaluable in this kind of war.

The don't have to be all firing boatloads of rockets concurrently, they do need to be emplaced at the ready when of necessity needed.

As the administration itself leaked that another 12 to 16 himars was doable, then by GOD...DO IT.
 
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