[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

[Luce]

This is some legendary self-ownage on Putin's part.

 

[NWRatCon]

I think we need to quickly bulk up Finland defense with NATO reinforcements, especially aircraft and air defense. Just to rub it in.

 

[Minerva]

I think we need to quickly bulk up Finland defense with NATO reinforcements, especially aircraft and air defense. Just to rub it in.

While I can appreciate the spite in this, and applaud the thought.....things are tense enough as it is. If NATO were to suddenly dump a lot of material into Finland, which has double the NATO/Russia border, it would only provide Putin with more propaganda for the citizens of Russia. Work into Finland the things they need at a prudent rate. If some of the NATO supplied equipment can back fill stuff being sent to Ukraine that is a Win/Win....

 

[JANFU]

This is some legendary self-ownage on Putin's part.

Good read on Finland
Not long
Finland's PM, New Year's speech, Jan 22

Niinistö’s approach to potentially changing Finland’s decades-long policy of military nonalignment seemed in early 2022 to favor a careful and cautious position. As 2023 begins, however, the fundamentals of Finnish security policy have shifted. Alongside Sweden, the Nordic country is adapting to a new reality in dealing with Russia and Vladimir Putin. In his New Year’s speech for 2023, Niinistö took a much more active position against Russia:

Finland in 2023: Beyond Military Nonalignment and a Revanchist Putin

Making sense of Finland’s shift away from a decades-long policy of military nonalignment.

www.lawfareblog.com

 

[NWRatCon]

While I can appreciate the spite in this, and applaud the thought.....things are tense enough as it is. If NATO were to suddenly dump a lot of material into Finland, which has double the NATO/Russia border, it would only provide Putin with more propaganda for the citizens of Russia. Work into Finland the things they need at a prudent rate. If some of the NATO supplied equipment can back fill stuff being sent to Ukraine that is a Win/Win....

I honestly don't think they will, I just want to belittle that petty dick, um, dictator as much as possible.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

While I can appreciate the spite in this, and applaud the thought.....things are tense enough as it is. If NATO were to suddenly dump a lot of material into Finland, which has double the NATO/Russia border, it would only provide Putin with more propaganda for the citizens of Russia. Work into Finland the things they need at a prudent rate. If some of the NATO supplied equipment can back fill stuff being sent to Ukraine that is a Win/Win....

Putin is going to say such things anyways.

 

[JANFU]

 

[JANFU]

 

[JANFU]

The impacts of Turkey/Kazakhstan enforcing sanction are having a significant impact on manufacturing

 

[JANFU]

 

[JANFU]

Heard they have a twitchy right arm

Lawmakers from the pro-Russia, far-right Freedom Party have walked out of the lower house of Austria’s parliament during a speech by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Zelenskyy addressed the chamber via video link on Thursday, thanking Austria for its humanitarian aid and help with projects such as clearing land mines.

Austria’s far-right lawmakers walk out of Zelenskyy speech

The group said they were protesting because the speech violated Austria’s principle of neutrality.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[JANFU]

85 K per round
In testing, up to 68 M range, approx 110 K.
GLMRS rounds cost 168 K
Still in testing, but I am sure they could be battle tested in Ukraine

A new type of 155mm artillery round produced by BAE Systems hit a target over 68 miles away in a December test, the longest range ever achieved by the artillery cannon used to fire it and more than three times farther than an average 155mm shell.

The new precision-guided 155mm shell can also hit a moving target, according to a company press release. The round was test fired from a U.S. Army Extended Range Cannon Artillery, or ERCA, Howitzer Test Bed, at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. BAE has a contract with the Army to develop and test the new round as part of the service’s XM1155 Extended Range Artillery Projectile program.

New Artillery Round Shoots Farther Than Some Missiles, Can Hit Moving Targets

Similar rounds, like the Excalibur, have been shipped in large numbers to Ukraine.

www.defenseone.com

 

[Luce]

While I can appreciate the spite in this, and applaud the thought.....things are tense enough as it is. If NATO were to suddenly dump a lot of material into Finland, which has double the NATO/Russia border, it would only provide Putin with more propaganda for the citizens of Russia. Work into Finland the things they need at a prudent rate. If some of the NATO supplied equipment can back fill stuff being sent to Ukraine that is a Win/Win....

A world without spite isn't worth living in.

 

[EnigmaO01]

Guess Orban can stop kissing Putin's ass

Seems like a dumb move by Putin if Orban was supportive of Russia.

 

[JANFU]

Seems like a dumb move by Putin if Orban was supportive of Russia.

Ok we should start with he invaded. They are losing their shit. Orban need the funds frozen by the EU. That EU funding pays for a lot of social aid in Hungary, aside from other programs
EU waited much too long with Orban/Duda

I think that is one reason Germany wants new EU entries to begin at a lower tier, & reform the EU beurocracy

 

[jpn]

I think we need to quickly bulk up Finland defense with NATO reinforcements, especially aircraft and air defense. Just to rub it in.

Today's NYT:

Still, it will be some time before Finland and NATO fully integrate their defense plans. Finland must decide, for example, whether it needs or will accept foreign troops or even nuclear weapons on its territory, Mr. Pesu said.​

​

“Geographically, their addition to the alliance adds a huge, difficult-to-defend border that complicates Putin’s calculus,” James G. Stavridis, a retired four-star American admiral and former top NATO military commander, said in an email ahead of Turkey’s ratification of Finland’s bid on Thursday, referring to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. “A huge plus for NATO.”​

​

Finland’s artillery forces, for instance, are the largest and best equipped in Western Europe — with some 1,500 artillery weapons, including 700 Howitzer guns, 700 heavy mortar and 100 rocket launcher systems, according to an analysis by the Wilson Center, a research organization.​

​

Public opinion in the country shifted significantly after Russia invaded Ukraine: Within months, nearly 80 percent of Finland’s citizens expressed support for joining NATO, compared with some 20 percent before the war.​

 

[Sword 1944]

So Finland who have had no problems with Russia since WW2 decided to become provocative to Russia by joining Nato,they are lucky the Russians allowed Finland to even exist after the War,that was some referendum result,of course they didn't have a referendum,what could possibly go wrong?

 

[PoS]

Just read this is the 1st journalist arrested post Soviet regime. It is clear that western media should pull their staff from Russia/Belarus

Being an expat, I am on the email list of the local US embassy here, and they sent an alert telling all citizens to leave Russia last year.

I don't disagree, but this is exactly what dictatorships want - no outside information that can contradict the propaganda. It's about information control. Fodder for prisoner exchange is just a side benefit.

Well, keeping your own people in a country thats clearly hostile to you is a potential hostage situation, so if I was this guy and the WSJ asked me to stay, I would tell them to **** off and leave ASAP.

 

[Surrealistik]

So Finland who have had no problems with Russia since WW2 decided to become provocative to Russia by joining Nato,they are lucky the Russians allowed Finland to even exist after the War,that was some referendum result,of course they didn't have a referendum,what could possibly go wrong?

I would say that Fins consistently polling as favouring NATO membership by overwhelming supermajorities of roughly 4 to 1, is pretty close to a 'referendum'. Interestingly, this is a complete inversion of the attitudes they held prior to Putin's invasion of Ukraine; it is therefore abundantly clear and indisputable that Putin's moronic self-destructive aggression and imperialism made the most significant expansion of NATO since the Cold War possible, and is directly responsible for a 1000 km enlargement of the alliance's shared border with Russia. Again, as stated elsewhere, it's one of the biggest foreign policy self-owns in modern history by someone who clearly fancies himself a master of 5-d realpolitik Chess when he is failing at Checkers. For this reason, in addition to the devastating losses incurred by Russia, and the many more to come, Putin is likely to make history as he desires, but for all the wrong reasons: namely his exceptional incompetence, demonstrable stupidity and literally historic failure as a head of state.

As to being 'provocative to Russia', first of all, Russia menaced Finland, and secondly, even if true, Russia can't do a goddamn thing about it; if their 2 week going on 2 year special operation against a third rate power like Ukraine is any indication, it would be lucky to last a month against the alliance (a fact of which it is most definitely aware, never having invaded a NATO signatory). Thanks to Putin's myopic blundering, stubborn doubling down and unforced errors, it's in the NATO gulag for the long haul, nevermind the fact it will be in no position to menace anyone after losing this war with the wholesale destruction of its economy and military; good riddance.

 

[Sword 1944]

I would say that Fins consistently polling as favouring NATO membership by overwhelming supermajorities of roughly 4 to 1, is pretty close to a 'referendum'. Interestingly, this is a complete inversion of the attitudes they held prior to Putin's invasion of Ukraine; it is therefore abundantly clear and indisputable that Putin's moronic self-destructive aggression and imperialism made the most significant expansion of NATO since the Cold War possible, and is directly responsible for a 1000 km enlargement of the alliance's shared border with Russia. Again, as stated elsewhere, it's one of the biggest foreign policy self-owns in modern history by someone who clearly fancies himself a master of 5-d realpolitik Chess when he is failing at Checkers. For this reason, in addition to the devastating losses incurred by Russia, and the many more to come, Putin is likely to make history as he desires, but for all the wrong reasons: namely his exceptional incompetence, demonstrable stupidity and literally historic failure as a head of state.

As to being 'provocative to Russia', first of all, Russia menaced Finland, and secondly, even if true, Russia can't do a goddamn thing about it; if their 2 week going on 2 year special operation against a third rate power like Ukraine is any indication, it would be lucky to last a month against the alliance (a fact of which it is most definitely aware, never having invaded a NATO signatory). Thanks to Putin's myopic blundering, stubborn doubling down and unforced errors, it's in the NATO gulag for the long haul, nevermind the fact it will be in no position to menace anyone after losing this war with the wholesale destruction of its economy and military; good riddance.

Opinion polls when and by who? also when did Russia menace Finland? WW2 has been over for almost 80 years,and the Soviets allowed Finland to exist as a Nation,i believe on the understanding they would be neutral,and you say the Russians can't do anything about it,well we shall see what unfolds,maybe Russian missiles and troops in Cuba again or Venezuela.

 

[NewfieMom]

Opinion polls when and by who? also when did Russia menace Finland? WW2 has been over for almost 80 years,and the Soviets allowed Finland to exist as a Nation,i believe on the understanding they would be neutral,and you say the Russians can't do anything about it,well we shall see what unfolds,maybe Russian missiles and troops in Cuba again or Venezuela.

What are you babbling about?

 

[Sword 1944]

What are you babbling about?

A response to Nato aggression what do you think?

 

[Surrealistik]

Opinion polls when and by who? also when did Russia menace Finland? WW2 has been over for almost 80 years,and the Soviets allowed Finland to exist as a Nation,i believe on the understanding they would be neutral,and you say the Russians can't do anything about it,well we shall see what unfolds,maybe Russian missiles and troops in Cuba again or Venezuela.

Finnish Support For NATO Membership Rises To 78 Percent, Poll Shows

Some 78 percent of Finns have a positive attitude toward NATO membership and more than half are of the opinion that Finland should be open to all cooperation within NATO.

www.rferl.org

Finnish Support for NATO Membership Jumps to 76% in Latest Poll

Finnish support for joining NATO has jumped to a record 76% in the latest poll as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine pushes the non-aligned Nordic nation closer to the defense pact.

www.bloomberg.com

Why are Sweden and Finland not yet in Nato and does the alliance want them?

Analysis: the two countries are considering applying to join after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

As to Russians 'allowing Finland to exist' that was not a decision made out of benevolence, nor was it in exchange for a promise of neutrality; it was a compelled peace brokered for land (again, yet more Russian imperialism proving the merit and value of defensive alliances like NATO), predicated on grievous losses and (almost certainly correct) Soviet assessments that any prolonged occupation of Finland would not be remotely worth the grueling guerilla warfare and sustained insurrection that would cause the Soviet Union to violently hemorrhage just as surely as their imperialist ambitions in Afghanistan did, if not more so.

Lastly, Russia can posture all it likes after the fact, and indeed it may, but when it's surrounded by NATO with a devastated economy and army in a state of ongoing intergenerational defeat and ruin, it will be in no condition whatsoever to menace the West outside of actually employing its nuclear arsenal, which would in turn result in its summary annihilation.

In the end, I'm afraid you're just going to have to reconcile with the disastrous consequences of Putin's moronic aggression, Russia's resulting ruin and enduring Western/NATO supremacy, however unpleasant that happens to be for you; that is simply the reality of things.

 

[Sword 1944]

Finnish Support For NATO Membership Rises To 78 Percent, Poll Shows

Some 78 percent of Finns have a positive attitude toward NATO membership and more than half are of the opinion that Finland should be open to all cooperation within NATO.

www.rferl.org

Finnish Support for NATO Membership Jumps to 76% in Latest Poll

Finnish support for joining NATO has jumped to a record 76% in the latest poll as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine pushes the non-aligned Nordic nation closer to the defense pact.

www.bloomberg.com

Why are Sweden and Finland not yet in Nato and does the alliance want them?

Analysis: the two countries are considering applying to join after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

As to Russians 'allowing Finland to exist' that was not a decision made out of benevolence, nor was it in exchange for a promise of neutrality; it was a compelled peace brokered for land (again, yet more Russian imperialism proving the merit and value of defensive alliances like NATO), predicated on grievous losses and (almost certainly correct) Soviet assessments that any prolonged occupation of Finland would not be remotely worth the grueling guerilla warfare and sustained insurrection that would cause the Soviet Union to violently hemorrhage just as surely as their imperialist ambitions in Afghanistan did, if not more so.

Lastly, Russia can posture all it likes after the fact, and indeed it may, but when it's surrounded by NATO with a devastated economy and army in a state of ongoing intergenerational defeat and ruin, it will be in no condition whatsoever to menace the West outside of actually employing its nuclear arsenal, which would in turn result in its summary annihilation.

In the end, I'm afraid you're just going to have to reconcile with the disastrous consequences of Putin's moronic aggression, Russia's resulting ruin and enduring Western/NATO supremacy, however unpleasant that happens to be for you; that is simply the reality of things.

So some obscure Finish polling outfit said so,but i don't really care actions have consequences,and yes the Soviets did allow Finland to exist at the end of the War,and you still didn't tell me how Russia has menaced Finland in the past 80 years? and to some extent Finland has had a relationship with Nato for years with Nato troops visiting etc,and its official position was one of neutrality,no longer it seems,so its nothing to do with the war in Ukraine they have flirted with those Nato gangsters since 1994.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%E2%80%93NATO_relations

 

[jpn]

Opinion polls when and by who? also when did Russia menace Finland? WW2 has been over for almost 80 years,and the Soviets allowed Finland to exist as a Nation,i believe on the understanding they would be neutral,and you say the Russians can't do anything about it,well we shall see what unfolds,maybe Russian missiles and troops in Cuba again or Venezuela.

Maybe the Finns don't like to exist merely at the sufferance of a historically imperial and undemocratic nation.